141 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

Ultimax, on 07 February 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

You are really just the worst kind of strawmanning baby in the history of my time reading posts.

I don't even run with arm lock, but thanks for proving once again you will resort to saying anything the instant anyone challenges anything you say.

Bishop Steiner has been a whiny baby against arm lock since its inception, always claiming that the top players abuse it despite it being more of a matter of personal preference.

- Some use armlock only (ex: Celyth)
- Some use the toggle (ex: Proton, JagerXII)
- Some don't use armlock at all (ex: TwinkyOverlord)

I used to use armlock and actually switched because I wanted to prove Bishop wrong (because he's been throwing the same fit for over a year). I ended up sticking with armlock off because I liked it more, but can say with 100% confidence that the switch did not impact my performance in any way.

If armlock is such a huge advantage, then every comp player would be using it, but that's not the case, and you can see the proof of this every single day on these player's respective twitch channels. Some players like it, others don't, some are in-between, and yet all of them are about the same level of skill.

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2016 - 07:12 AM, said:

new players learned just fine for the first year or more without it..... because we didn't even have the option.

yet always seem to be "skilled" players most against it being removed.

The funny thing is, it has absolutely nothing to do with skill. Go ahead, remove it, watch as the same top players stay exactly the same. The only thing that would be different is the game would (yet again) be minus another feature that players can chose to use/not use out of their own free will.

There is no reason for me to be invested in this debate, because I already stopped using armlock about a year ago, and haven't touched it ever since (not even the toggle). So why would I care about this?

Maybe I care because:
- The HGN and VTR were nerfed into uselessness because of complaints about the top players.
- PPCs were nerfed into uselessness because of complaints about the top players.
- Gauss was (almost) nerfed into uselessness because of complaints about the top players.
- etc...

The same players that everybody complained about over 2 years ago are the SAME players that everybody is complaining about today. They remain at the top of the leaderboards despite several shifts in the meta, balance, and several game features. They were the top players back when the game had timed convergence, and they're the top players now that the game has instant convergence.

There is no "crutch." You can remove every single feature in this game, implement a cone of fire system to fix convergence, and require that every player use nothing but an Urbanmech with a single small laser, and you know what? The same players will STILL be on top, because they WANT to be on top, and will play the game until they reach it. That's why they're called, "competitive," players.

The only way you could possibly even out the playing field would be to implement a, "You can only play MWO for a max. of ___ hours each day," but good freaking luck trying to get something like that implemented, and you know what? The same players would probably STILL be on top.

Stop ruining the game for everybody else by the constant, "Comp guys are only winning because of ____, so therefore if we remove _____, I'll be able to win," mindset. No matter what you do, the same guys are going to be on top, and the only way you or any other complainer is going to get there is to abuse the TRUE secret behind winning: PLAY THE GAME A LOT.

[Tarogato]

*removes lower arm actuators*

*profit!!*

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Actually on many assault mechs you do, unless the Light is bad. BNC-3M and 3E for instance, are literally incapable of depressing their weapons enough to deal with a Light Mech that knows how to anklehug. Your basic 300 engine 100 tonner has a vastly more difficult time tracking a close, fast Light Mech.

But I'm not shocked you are desperate to keep your crutch.

You do realise that this is a completely moot point because basically no assault mechs in the game can mount enough firepower with lower arm actuators to track lights, right? Most Atlases builds don't put weapons on the arms, or if they do it's usually just something pitiful like two medium lasers. The Direwolf can't lower arm actuators (well, I guess it technically can but nobody ever does). The King Crab doesn't have actuation either. Actually, the only assault mechs that fit the bill are the Gargoyle and Executioner. And you know what scares me more as a light pilot than a Gargoyle or Executioner? A Banshee, or Battlemaster, or Mauler, or Dire Wolf.

Edited by Tarogato, 07 February 2016 - 01:43 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 07 February 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

butthurt leet babble

Cool, if it isn't about skill, why cry so hard to keep it?

Keep going with the personal attacks though, they do SOOOOO much to lend credence to your point. Nor does your making arguments against things I never said.

At no point have I said Comps Needed it. I have said I find it funny how many self proclaimed Leets cry hardest at the thought of losing it. Of course, I can see where that distinction could be lost on you.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 February 2016 - 01:51 PM.

[Gyrok]

GreyNovember, on 07 February 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

You realize this does absolutely nothing to stop my 30pt 1-2 alphas from my Nova, the biggest threat to have ever walked?

LOL!

If by biggest you mean largest 50 ton mech to ever walk...sure...

[Pjwned]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Cool, if it isn't about skill, why cry so hard to keep it?

Why remove it when it's not going to fix anything that you claim it would?

[MischiefSC]

The mentality of trying to remove tools because some people use them better than others is a lost cause. Arm lock certainly isn't the cause of high alphas.

There certainly are broken things that need fixed, like some some quirks, but some mechanics are just better used by people work a certain skill set. Some people being better at the game than others isn't a bug or flaw that needs fixed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 07 February 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

*removes lower arm actuators*

*profit!!*




You do realise that this is a completely moot point because basically no assault mechs in the game can mount enough firepower with lower arm actuators to track lights, right? Most Atlases builds don't put weapons on the arms, or if they do it's usually just something pitiful like two medium lasers. The Direwolf can't lower arm actuators (well, I guess it technically can but nobody ever does). The King Crab doesn't have actuation either. Actually, the only assault mechs that fit the bill are the Gargoyle and Executioner. And you know what scares me more as a light pilot than a Gargoyle or Executioner? A Banshee, or Battlemaster, or Mauler, or Dire Wolf.

You do realize Pitch and Yaw are two very different things? You see, all weapons in torso means limited Pitch. Yaw is something I wasn't even actually touching on in that point in that particular point since you know armlock also sorta kinda impinges pitch?

(you know the ability to shoot at things above and below you? Like an ankle hugging commando?) Because with torso weapons, an AS7 is unable to hit a Commando within 20 meters due to pitch. Let alone trying to tag a fast moving one due to lack of yaw.

If you are afraid of torso weapon only Battlemasters and Banshees in a Light I submit you are probably doing it wrong. Sure, at range, like anything, it's ouchy. Last I checked the good light pilots got in your grill. This is one of the reasons it works.

weapons at full depression

And it's worse for Banshees and Battlemasters....because most of their guns are higher mounted than the Atlas.

Pjwned, on 07 February 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

Why remove it when it's not going to fix anything that you claim it would?

You mean like near instant correction free converging arms to torso?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Meh. I just like it for the mechs I have with all torso mounts so I have less HUD clutter.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 07 February 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

The mentality of trying to remove tools because some people use them better than others is a lost cause. Arm lock certainly isn't the cause of high alphas.

There certainly are broken things that need fixed, like some some quirks, but some mechanics are just better used by people work a certain skill set. Some people being better at the game than others isn't a bug or flaw that needs fixed.

Any idiot can use arm lock, Mischief, so please lets not to try to pretend "some use it better than others and thus want it gone". People may aimm better or faster in general, but um, you know you click Left Shift with your pinkie and POOF armlock.

Doesn't exactly require a masters class to learn to use.

It does get noobs killed who don't know how to disengage it, and while not as big an issue with LV as it was with poptarts, it still gives you perfect arm to torso weapon convergence without any effort.

So yes, it's a crutch.

[YakkSlapper]

No, it wont. (and no, I dont loc either)

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Cool, if it isn't about skill, why cry so hard to keep it?

Pretty sure I went over that...

Aresye, on 07 February 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

There is no reason for me to be invested in this debate, because I already stopped using armlock about a year ago, and haven't touched it ever since (not even the toggle). So why would I care about this?

Maybe I care because:
- The HGN and VTR were nerfed into uselessness because of complaints about the top players.
- PPCs were nerfed into uselessness because of complaints about the top players.
- Gauss was (almost) nerfed into uselessness because of complaints about the top players.
- etc...

Oh yeah, now I remember. It's because people like you that love to throw hissy fits and tweet Russ on, "perceived," crutches that players use, end up making this game worse, by ruining things for everybody else that has 0% impact on the players you actually want affected.

*Edit*
and don't try and say you "aren't" trying to go after the comp crowd. Your bias against the meta and everything related to competitive MWO is not exactly, "subtle" on these forums.

Edited by Aresye, 07 February 2016 - 02:25 PM.

[Khobai]

arm lock does need two changes:

first, arm lock should NOT center the arm reticle on the torso reticle faster than you can do it manually. arm lock needs to be slowed down a little. players are abusing arm lock to be able to move their arms faster than they should be able to go, that abuse needs to be prevented by slowing down the speed armlock takes to return to the center (make armlock take at least a half second longer to return to center instead of being near instant).

second, armlock needs to be an on/off toggle instead of holding down shift. TAG should also be a toggle. And override should be a toggle as well.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2016 - 02:30 PM.

[Mystere]

Luminis, on 07 February 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

With armlock turned off, the torso and arm reticles still follow the same mouse inputs and eventually converge, I thought? I was thinking more along the lines of entirely independent aiming, but, as I said, I don't know how to make that work with just keyboard and mouse

You're going to need one of these:

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 07 February 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

second, armlock needs to be an on/off toggle instead of holding down shift. TAG should also be a toggle. And override should be a toggle as well.

Both armlock and override are toggles......

[Khobai]

Quote

Both armlock and override are toggles......

you have to hold down shift for armlock. you cant just press shift once to toggle it on/off.

actually I guess they finally fixed that... i never use armlock so I didnt notice.



armlock still needs to not give a considerable speed advantage over someone manually moving thier arms though.

manually moving your arms should be faster and more rewarding than simply pushing armlock. armlock needs to be slowed down so its not near instant.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2016 - 02:39 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Uh... won't that just shift the laser vomit meta to those mechs with mostly torso mounted energy hard points? Also won't it further improve those mechs with high arm hard points with no lower actuators?

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Any idiot can use arm lock, Mischief, so please lets not to try to pretend "some use it better than others and thus want it gone". People may aimm better or faster in general, but um, you know you click Left Shift with your pinkie and POOF armlock.

Doesn't exactly require a masters class to learn to use.

It does get noobs killed who don't know how to disengage it, and while not as big an issue with LV as it was with poptarts, it still gives you perfect arm to torso weapon convergence without any effort.

So yes, it's a crutch.

The difference between someone poptarting with Arm lock toggle and someone who just plays with it on because their aim is poor is pretty dramatic.

Look at the thread title. High alpha laser ABUSE? Really? This same **** keeps coming up. It's every bit the 'crutch' that radar is. It's a simple in game tool. Nobody is wanting to remove it because it gets bads killed, the uproar is that it's being "abused" (lol) to.... increase accuracy between arm and torso laser mounts which is really only an issue for players who can aim for ****.

We have an issue as a community with seeing people play better than us and instead of trying to GIT GUD we want to MAKE BAD. Cuz teamwork is op as **** as is aiming and building good robbits.

I'm all over convergence mechanics. I think it would add a lot to the game. Don't care about arm convergence either way. This sort of stuff though, the mentality of 'X killed me nerf x' is bad.

[MechWarrior4023212]

I don't use arm lock and I hit the target most of the time....so this quite funny!

[Tarogato]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

You do realize Pitch and Yaw are two very different things? You see, all weapons in torso means limited Pitch. Yaw is something I wasn't even actually touching on in that point in that particular point since you know armlock also sorta kinda impinges pitch?

(you know the ability to shoot at things above and below you? Like an ankle hugging commando?) Because with torso weapons, an AS7 is unable to hit a Commando within 20 meters due to pitch. Let alone trying to tag a fast moving one due to lack of yaw.

If you are afraid of torso weapon only Battlemasters and Banshees in a Light I submit you are probably doing it wrong. Sure, at range, like anything, it's ouchy. Last I checked the good light pilots got in your grill. This is one of the reasons it works.

weapons at full depression

And it's worse for Banshees and Battlemasters....because most of their guns are higher mounted than the Atlas.

If it's so bad for Banshees and Battlemasters, then what assaults have the magical ability to deal with lights so much more easily? King Crabs because they have low mounts? Not really. All I have to do is put my Locust behind one and I can usually kill him without him ever being able to see me. Is it Atlases with arm weapons? No... I can easily hug their butts with a Shadowcat, let alone a Locust.

Edited by Tarogato, 07 February 2016 - 03:23 PM.

[Gyrok]

Khobai, on 07 February 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

you have to hold down shift for armlock. you cant just press shift once to toggle it on/off.

actually I guess they finally fixed that... i never use armlock so I didnt notice.



armlock still needs to not give a considerable speed advantage over someone manually moving thier arms though.

manually moving your arms should be faster and more rewarding than simply pushing armlock. armlock needs to be slowed down so its not near instant.

You can set it toggle in your key bindings.