1094 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Khereg, on 08 February 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

They nerfed jump-sniping by adding the bouncy reticule while actively jumping (although it still snaps right back when the jump key is released, so skilled players still snipe). I understand the desire for CoF, but if the objective is just to reduce accuracy even further while moving, why not just add a bouncing reticule that gets increasingly erratic at higher speeds?

That would seem a lot simpler than the convoluted mechanic discussed here.

That would be stupid as ****, since your arms are not erratically jumping around while your running, rather they are gently swaying back and forth and your TC is constantly trying to adjust. If the reticule did anything, it would be like BF2142 when you run in the Walkers, it sways back and forth as you run, in sync with your run, not like MWO JJ Reticule jitter......that honestly made no sense anyway.

IF anything, this game really should add arm sway to the reticule as well as a sort of aim time delay on the guns, giving them time to zero in. Yeah, basically convergeance, which PGI had, but got rid of.


Guess PGI wanted Call of Duty: Robot Wars instead of Battletech game.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 08 February 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Dingo Red, on 08 February 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

You are not capable of landing rounds dead center on a target while running. It's physically impossible.

Patently false. I have done it and I have watched far more skilled marksmen do it even more consistently than I.

I have seen US Army SFs running sideways nailing coke cans at 25m with their rifle.

[Almond Brown]

Having no idea about how the "code" of all this stuff works, like I mean the "real running game code" I would like to try a 3 reticule system where a Mechs arm mounted weapons cannot "converge" with any of the LT/CT/RT loaded weapons. To describe it would be something like this.

Any CT/Head based mounts create a "central reticule" (small/accurate) adding either a RT and or LT weapon expand that "central reticule" proportionally per torso added. Thus a CT and a RT weapon make the "central reticule" 1/3 larger (spread is increased). The addition of weapons to all 3 torso sections again increases the "central reticule" to maximum spread within the "central reticule"

Now each Arm has a separate "reticule" and act as 1 unit like now but their "individual reticules" are not allowed "inside" the "central reticule" such that the larger the "central reticule" becomes, the less the Arms can converge to each other. Given the current Arm unlock the Arms will still be able to traverse the outside edge of the "central reticule" in both up and and movements but only 1 arm reticule can move side to side depending on which way the Mech rotates (left or right).

Here is a crude visual representation of the idea, since we are doing ideas right?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Dingo Red, on 08 February 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

And how exactly does one implement such a system in a game like this? Doesn't seem possible to me. Would that be better? Yeah, probably, but the reality is that isn't likely with a game perspective that doesn't even model the 'mech's actual movement to the cockpit.

• Go to 3PV
  
• Start running
  
• observe crosshair movement
  
• fire lasers
  
• observe pattern of laser fire

[badaa]

like the concept but the pinpointers r never going let them get rid of the easy button

[Mystere]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

I'd still rather we had a recoil/reticle sway system to just pure CoF.

My issue with purely having reticule sway is:

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

... a wildly swaying reticule that still somehow manages to give pixel-perfect accuracy to potentially 16(?) weapons of possibly varying weights in TONS really just offends my sensibilities.

[1Grimbane]

Dingo Red, on 08 February 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

You are not capable of landing rounds dead center on a target while running. It's physically impossible.

hey homeboy... 0311 marine here.. i can run dead sprint and preform perfect hammer drills all day long... that's 2 to the head 2 to the chest, from100 yards easy shut down nervous system function and cardio vascular.. cuz hadji be using amphetamines to fight us

[Impyrium]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

• Go to 3PV
  
• Start running
  
• observe crosshair movement
  
• fire lasers
  
• observe pattern of laser fire

That doesn't exactly translate into the cockpit view.

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

Patently false. I have done it and I have watched far more skilled marksmen do it even more consistently than I.

I have seen US Army SFs running sideways nailing coke cans at 25m with their rifle.

Highly trained individuals might be trained well enough to run and aim in a way allowing them to achieve a decent accuracy, but hardly perfect aim, and blow that up to 'mech scale where there's so many factors working against a pin-point aim... it doesn't make sense to me.

The tiny difference in aim that the OP proposes probably models the accuracy that SF can achieve while running pretty darn well anyway. It's not like that silly picture posted above which puts the laser at a 30 degree offset.

Edited by Dingo Red, 08 February 2016 - 03:23 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

My issue with purely having reticule sway is:

Considering some of the best mechs boat at most 8-9 weapons (and mainly due to ghost heat thresholds, otherwise it would be less), I don't understand why you are bringing up 16 like it is an egregious problem running rampant through this game.

Hell, some weapons need to be boated on that scale to actually be useful (iSL I'm looking at you).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 February 2016 - 03:23 PM.

[1Grimbane]

Dingo Red, on 08 February 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

That doesn't exactly translate into the cockpit view.



Highly trained individuals might be trained well enough to run and aim in a way allowing them to achieve a decent accuracy, but hardly perfect aim, and blow that up to 'mech scale where there's so many factors working against a pin-point aim... it doesn't make sense to me.

The tiny difference in aim that the OP proposes probably models the accuracy that SF can achieve while running pretty darn well anyway. It's not like that silly picture posted above which puts the laser at a 30 degree offset.

mechs do have targeting comps that can steady certain weapon systems and place that shot exactly where the TC put it by taking trajectory, wind and range into account plus movement. so in any case a mech of the future should be able to land more perfect shots than any human operator SF or not that's the way i look at it anyway

Edited by 1Grimbane, 08 February 2016 - 03:25 PM.

[adamts01]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

I can be running and still land rounds on target.

But not even close to as accurately as if you were calm and prone.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 February 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

No, you are assuming that because it is popular it must be better and that is not always the case, especially here. The Firestarter is simply used more, that is about all you can say about it.

It's used more because the people who are far better at this game than you or I evaluated it as the most powerful option. Popular with with comp crowd doesn't have anything to do with anything but performance.

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

I have seen US Army SFs running sideways nailing coke cans at 25m with their rifle.

They could hit those same coke cans with the same precision at 100m while not running. If you don't understand that then I call bull **** on you shooting competitively. You saying a match grade M4 only shoots 4 MOA is another questionable claim.

1Grimbane, on 08 February 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

hey homeboy... 0311 marine here.. i can run dead sprint and preform perfect hammer drills all day long... that's 2 to the head 2 to the chest, from100 yards easy shut down nervous system function and cardio vascular.. cuz hadji be using amphetamines to fight us

I believe you, but you could do the same at 200 from prone, and at 400 off a bipod.

1Grimbane, on 08 February 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

mechs do have targeting comps that can steady certain weapon systems and place that shot exactly where the TC put it by taking trajectory, wind and range into account plus movement. so in any case a mech of the future should be able to land more perfect shots than any human operator SF or not that's the way i look at it anyway

Human or machine, the more the platform moves, the less accurate the shot will be, that's all there is to it. Anyone who argues otherwise has only fired weapons in video games.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

It's used more because the people who are far better at this game than you or I evaluated it as the most powerful option. Popular with with comp crowd doesn't have anything to do with anything but performance.

Maybe you are confused, comp prefers Cheetahs and Oxides currently. Firestarters are just a solid option (FS9-S that is) if you can't take more of the better options. When you mentioned the Firestarter is more common, I thought you meant PUGs, because in comp it is not the goto light.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 February 2016 - 03:33 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Dingo Red, on 08 February 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

That doesn't exactly translate into the cockpit view.

Again, that M4 the SF uses is still 4MOA whether he's running or prone. The bullet is going to go within 4MOA of where the rifle is pointing. Now, the human element is what decides where the rounds go and where the rifle is pointing. Moving means natural sway, there's a kinesthetic pattern of movement a trained marksman can predict and overcome to a degree with timing.

Koniving, on 04 April 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

3pv and 1pv.

And my video here

If you notice, in 3PV, the reticle sways. Yet in 1PV, there is no sway. And in the 3PV videos, the faster you move, the more you sway. I don't understand why PGI just doesn't copy/paste that code over to 1PV as well.

[pyrocomp]

The presented small CoF idea is a good thing to try.

The spread should be angle-wise (so proportional to the distance to the target) and independent from the zoom (as illustrations show, 2x zoom is better than standing-cool-still-cc-modules cobined, or it's like present LBX pellets changind trajectory midflight).

Low CoF does not turn anything into LBX/SRM as was speculated at those are a large CoF weapons (and LBX should be that way, it's a shotgun after all).

HRS and calculations wise CoF of any grade brokes nothing as it can be implemented as simple rotation of a shot direction at the moment the weapon is fired and after that it's the same shot as any shot now.

I think this should be tested and maybe the CoF shouldnot be a fixed thing, but weapon dependent, e.g. each weapon to have it's own CoF, maybe even dependent on where it's mounted (arms of torso). But anyway, first a proof of concept, then tweaks and adjustments.


PS: references to general FPS that have CoF on automatic weapons should be made with honest words that CoFs in those shooters are few times wider then present day LBX incarnation and severely wider than CoF proposed here. Plus consoles 'target lock' is a thing to take into consideration on 'why it was made so',

[Livewyr]

I absolutely LOVE the idea Tex (I might change a little bit of it)


However, this has been presented before and ignored.
It's just too much work for PGI. They don't have the manpower to work on things other than those they have already promised (CW) or those they can make direct profit off of. (Mechpacks)

I want degradable accuracy, but I don't think it is in the cards. I sincerely believe the game will be dead, if not offline before anything like this sees the light of day at PGI.

Edited by Livewyr, 08 February 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[Impyrium]

1Grimbane, on 08 February 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

mechs do have targeting comps that can steady certain weapon systems and place that shot exactly where the TC put it by taking trajectory, wind and range into account plus movement. so in any case a mech of the future should be able to land more perfect shots than any human operator SF or not that's the way i look at it anyway

That's a fair point, but the way I see it is that BattleTech has always presented a universe where technology is aging and barely functional, and mechs themselves hardly pin-point in their accuracy, both in aiming and moving.

[pyrocomp]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

If you notice, in 3PV, the reticle sways. Yet in 1PV, there is no sway. And in the 3PV videos, the faster you move, the more you sway. I don't understand why PGI just doesn't copy/paste that code over to 1PV as well.

On integrated Intel graphics you can meet and interesting glitch when you get into the game your cockpit is not loaded. And when you move NOTHING sways. Nothing bumbs. I don't know what kind of lazy programming was that, but you 'fly' in a strait line without any sway or anything. Only image of the cockpit sways creating an illusion of mech 'sways'. The recticle in the 3PV is not swaying, it's the drone adjusting position to be exactly behind the back of the mech a model of whitch has a twist animation while walking. There is literally no code for the sway. The 3PV sway is a side effect of mech animation. Look closer, the sway differs from mech to mech based on it's animation.

[adamts01]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

Again, that M4 the SF uses is still 4MOA whether he's running or prone. The bullet is going to go within 4MOA of where the rifle is pointing. Now, the human element is what decides where the rounds go and where the rifle is pointing. Moving means natural sway, there's a kinesthetic pattern of movement a trained marksman can predict and overcome to a degree with timing.

Our bootcamp M16-A2s with barrels that were falling off and ironsights shot at least 12" at 500 yards, that's about 2 MOA. Whatever COD forum you got this 4MOA crap from is completely full of ****. And yes, there's a natural "figure 8" sway while aiming and a bounce from your heartbeat, that's completely different than maximum precision from rest, and decreasing precision as the platform becomes less stable.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

They could hit those same coke cans with the same precision at 100m while not running. If you don't understand that then I call bull **** on you shooting competitively.

If you're prone supported, you should be able to pick off coke cans at 250+m easily.

What's the variable in this equation between a moving shooter and a prone shooter? The shooter's position. The weapon is not a variable, it a constant. It's up to the shooter to point the gun in the right direction. His body is moving, and therefore the weapon is swaying.

See the above videos I just linked.

I don't like RNG CoF. It's lazy and bad design.

I will take a movement based reticle sway, however. Which is already in the game in 3PV.

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

You saying a match grade M4 only shoots 4 MOA is another questionable claim.

Did I say match grade AR? No. I mentioned M4, which means a standard block issue government M4. And those are 2-4MOA.

[oldradagast]

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

you mean like in any other FPS?

What we have at the moment is an exception, not the rule, also a really bad exception.
Plus even fully alpha'd the CoF is so minimal to just reduce pinpointing, its no where as big to miss a mech by thousand miles and shoot a teammate.

Tex, I appreciate what you've done, but as you look over many of the replies, you'll see that the detractors don't actually read what was written. They just substitute in what they *think* of cone of fire would entail, such as "shots wildly missing," "hitting your allies all the time," and "aiming won't matter."

It's annoying and absurd.

• Nearly every other successful FPS out there uses some sort of cone of fire, and these are games far more popular and successful than MWO
  
• Plenty of other games, such as World of Warships, DO have "rather inaccurate" shooting - which is proper for what they are simulating - so the notion that "everybody wants to hit the exact pixel they aim at" is demonstrably false.
  
• Battletech itself was NOT built around the concept of perfect, pinpoint damage; in fact, such damage-dealing basically defeats the entire point of having components on a battlemech. If every shot is going center-torso, you may as well just have a "hitpoint pool" for the whole mech and be done with it.
  
• Finally, nearly every balance problem within MWO itself is caused by perfect convergence and pinpoint damage, and has results in things like Ghost Heat, Gauss Charge, jump-jet nerfs, etc.

The facts make it painfully clear that a Cone of Fire is strongly recommended for this game to bring it in-line with Lore and the industry standards, as well as finally offering a mechanism to end other band-aid mechanics, like Ghost Heat. Finally, a Cone of Fire would allow for interesting applications of heat penalties, bonuses for scouting and target locks, and so forth - all of which would make sense within the newly propose mechanics AND within the game world itself.

But we won't get this because "Whaaaa! I want my dual Gauss + lasers to all hit the same pixel every time I shoot because I got skillz!"

Edited by oldradagast, 08 February 2016 - 03:45 PM.