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Cone Of Fire Proposal (With Pictures!) [Update: Examples]


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#21 Greyhart

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:40 AM

View PostKhereg, on 08 February 2016 - 06:38 AM, said:


I'm not sure how you learn and adapt to a random number generator.



Ok which other FPS has pin point fire?

#22 smokefield

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:44 AM

Quote

I'm for it, its a lot more realistic


i am always enjoying this argument. realistic compared with what ? you are playing a video game with robots running on 2 legs at over 100kph speeds while shooting things at other robots and occasionally jumping in the air. persoanlly i am curious where our dragons are..you know..those with wings...not out bignose mech

#23 Metus regem

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:51 AM

View Postsmokefield, on 08 February 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:


i am always enjoying this argument. realistic compared with what ? you are playing a video game with robots running on 2 legs at over 100kph speeds while shooting things at other robots and occasionally jumping in the air. persoanlly i am curious where our dragons are..you know..those with wings...not out bignose mech


Well considering I've spent time in the cockpit of an AH-64D, fired the weapon systems, seen the 30mm hit target as well as around the target first hand, it gives me a bit of personal perspective on mounted weapon systems....

That being said, I don't see how you could possibly be threatened by something that puts a bit more simulation into this game.... It's not like I think we need full on physics from what would happen with recoil from things like large bore AC's.....

#24 mania3c

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:53 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 08 February 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

Hell real world vehicle mounted weapons are not as accurate as we see in this game. So I am all for a CoF mechanic, that would still let people keep their current accuracy by getting close to the target, rather than being 500m+ away.


Actually, modern vehicles have perfect aim, unless any axis will be out of range during the movement. No matter if vehicle is going full speed or crawling, what terrain is there, if is being hit etc. As long as electronic works, aim is pretty much perfect.

for CoH in mechwarrior. I am not really sure. I would like to try it TBH. Also Recoil would be good IMHO.

Edited by mania3c, 08 February 2016 - 06:54 AM.


#25 Metus regem

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 06:55 AM

View Postmania3c, on 08 February 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:


Actually, modern vehicles have perfect aim, unless any axis will be out of range during the movement. No matter if vehicle is going full speed or crawling, what terrain is there, if is being hit etc. As long as electronic works, aim is pretty much perfect.

for CoH in mechwarrior. I am not really sure. I would like to try it TBH.


Not true, under perfect lab conditions yes, but the real world has a bad habit of messing with that...

#26 smokefield

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:00 AM

Quote

Well considering I've spent time in the cockpit of an AH-64D, fired the weapon systems, seen the 30mm hit target as well as around the target first hand, it gives me a bit of personal perspective on mounted weapon systems....


and thats exactly what comes after someone points out how ridicoulus is to think about reality..."trust me guys i work on these things....they should work like I say"...man it is a game. if tomorow dev consider to add a gun shooting candy from the a.s.s ...you will jump and say its not realisitc...who cares ? there are a lot of other issues that they need to address..not the reality of their game. and remember it is not called simulator. it is " tactical, 'Mech-based online shooter set in the rich BattleTech Universe."

#27 Levi Porphyrogenitus

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:04 AM

There's a way to implement a "cone of fire" mechanic without adding RNG. Instead of random deviation within the circle, have fixed deviation. When moving, hot, unstable, or some combination thereof, arm weapons always fire slightly to their respective side, CT weapons always fire somewhat low, ST weapons always fire somewhat high and to their respective side, and head weapons always fire somewhat high.

#28 mania3c

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:04 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 08 February 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

Not true, under perfect lab conditions yes, but the real world has a bad habit of messing with that...

I guess in thousand year people would be able to handle "real world", especially if technology is already here. Posted Image

I am just saying pointing on real vehicles to adjust MWO gameplay is not really best idea. Funny enough, some systems used in Mechwarrior are out of date comparing to our current top battle systems Posted Image

Edited by mania3c, 08 February 2016 - 07:04 AM.


#29 ComradeHavoc

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:07 AM

This is actually quite a good idea, problem being that meta mediums usually don't strafe or move.

#30 Metus regem

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:08 AM

View Postmania3c, on 08 February 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

I guess in thousand year people would be able to handle "real world", especially if technology is already here. Posted Image

I am just saying pointing on real vehicles to adjust MWO gameplay is not really best idea. Funny enough, some systems used in Mechwarrior are out of date comparing to our current top battle systems Posted Image


Yup...like "long" range missiles only going a kilometer...

#31 adamts01

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:14 AM

View PostKhereg, on 08 February 2016 - 06:38 AM, said:

I'm not sure how you learn and adapt to a random number generator.
You install targeting computers in mechs that need pinpoint, then you have zero randomness. You don't install TCs on brawler mechs where it's not such a big deal. You can still have your perfect pinpoint under OP's suggestion, you just have to pay for it.


View Postsmokefield, on 08 February 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

and thats exactly what comes after someone points out how ridicoulus is to think about reality..."trust me guys i work on these things....they should work like I say"...man it is a game. if tomorow dev consider to add a gun shooting candy from the a.s.s ...you will jump and say its not realisitc...who cares ? there are a lot of other issues that they need to address..not the reality of their game. and remember it is not called simulator. it is " tactical, 'Mech-based online shooter set in the rich BattleTech Universe."
He actually a combat pilot, so he absolutely knows what he's talking about. As far as just being for realism... False, huge pinpoint alphas have a direct impact on the core of the experience in this game. I find, as well as others, it's a big thing holding this game back.

#32 Hit the Deck

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:21 AM

View PostTexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:


The actual Cof would include the inner circle.

-pic-

As you see the CoF is still so small, that you could easily pick an enemie's Limb or ST if he is less than 200m away, probably even out to 300-400m, if you are not alphaing.

But, at what distance does that inner circle represent?

#33 FupDup

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:23 AM

So basically, make every weapon into SRM/LBX/MGs.

There are so many better ways to alter convergence than making every weapon into LBX...


And really, for the "every other FPS" argument, there are two gigantic holes in that argument:

1. I thought that most of you guys hated every other generic, "arcadey, "dumbed down" FPS games? Like Call of Duty...

2. There are also just a large number of core mechanical differences between PC Mechwarrior games and generic infantry shooters. If you want me to I can list them off.

#34 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:25 AM

View PostFupDup, on 08 February 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

So basically, make every weapon into SRM/LBX/MGs.

There are so many better ways to alter convergence than making every weapon into LBX...


And really, for the "every other FPS" argument, there are two gigantic holes in that argument:

1. I thought that most of you guys hated every other generic, "arcadey, "dumbed down" FPS games? Like Call of Duty...

2. There are also just a large number of core mechanical differences between PC Mechwarrior games and generic infantry shooters. If you want me to I can list them off.

actually pixel perfection aiming is more arcadey, just putting that out there.....

#35 adamts01

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:27 AM

View PostHit the Deck, on 08 February 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:


But, at what distance does that inner circle represent?
You're missing the concept. It doesn't matter the distance. The same size circle could all hit CT on a Locust at 100 but cover an entire Atlas at 800.

View PostFupDup, on 08 February 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

So basically, make every weapon into SRM/LBX/MGs.
That's not at all what OP said. The hotter you run and the more weapons you fire at once increases inaccuracy. If you want pixel perfect, install a TC and stop for a split second to take your shot. You can still be a sniper if you build a sniper.

#36 FupDup

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:32 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 08 February 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

actually pixel perfection aiming is more arcadey, just putting that out there.....

Are you trying to say that Call of Duty is less arcadey than MWO?


By the way, I tried to drop a hint on my position in that post. I'll requote it:

View PostFupDup, on 08 February 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

There are so many better ways to alter convergence than making every weapon into LBX...

By saying something like that, I thought that it would imply to everyone here that I'm not saying 'no' to all aiming changes, I'm just saying 'no' to this one particular change. There's a difference.

#37 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:32 AM

View Postadamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

install a TC


Clams OP I guess?

#38 Khereg

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:32 AM

View PostGreyhart, on 08 February 2016 - 06:40 AM, said:

Ok which other FPS has pin point fire?


Since we're talking about MechWarrior, I'll go with MW1 and 2. Possibly the other installments in the franchise also, but I'm an old fart and didn't play those.

I'm not here to try to make a definitive case against CoF - if PGI wants to implement it, I'm sure I'll adapt. But I personally think it's a bad idea and I've yet to see an argument to convince me otherwise over the last 3-ish years the idea's been floating around.

#39 SuomiWarder

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:33 AM

Ah, a classic argument from back in the closed beta days. I love the classics.

Snipers and gunners in tanks need to take some time to aim - for the targeting system to get ranged and to adjust for wind, spin of the earth, etc. The original B Tech novels had the Golden Lock. When the multiple targeting crosshairs lined up and all the weapons were computer aimed dead on then bang - you are Annie Oakly.

In B Tech the computers and equipment is supposed to be less than 1980s level. Yeah, not sure how you navigate space jumps with low powered computers but whatever. They needed a reason the weapon ranges were so small compared to 1980s tanks. The ranges were small to keep the battlemap to a size that fit on a table. One could argue that MWO needs small ranged weapons overall to get players to actually close on each other.

So I have always liked a cone of fire approach, modified so that on a target your Mech has a target lock on the cone gets smaller to the pin point aim we have today. Slow down combat a bit, make poking possible but tougher to put multiple AC 5s in one body part, and other various effects. Kinda makes one big gun better than a bunch of little ones. Which was the original point of big guns in B Tech.

#40 FupDup

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 07:35 AM

View Postadamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

That's not at all what OP said. The hotter you run and the more weapons you fire at once increases inaccuracy. If you want pixel perfect, install a TC and stop for a split second to take your shot. You can still be a sniper if you build a sniper.

The method by which a "cone" of fire increases inaccuracy is by making the shot deviate off-course by some angle within the maximum cone limit, and the "tip" of the cone starts at the end of the weapon barrel. So in a way, it does actually make all weapons behave similar to LBX. Most weapons only have a single 'pellet' to fire instead of multiple pellets like LBX, but the spread effect is ultimately the same.

The LB 2-X is probably the closest comparison because it has only 2 pellets. So for example, firing 2 AC/5 might be like a giant LB 2-X with 5 damage per "pellet" instead of just 1.

Posted Image

By the way, the Inner Sphere doesn't even have Targeting Computers, and making it so you have to stand immobile to fire means that lights and fast mediums become useless because it gives their enemy a window of opportunity to alpha strike them in the face.

Edited by FupDup, 08 February 2016 - 07:38 AM.






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