1094 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SuomiWarder, on 08 February 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

Kinda makes one big gun better than a bunch of little ones.

Big guns used to be good here too, until many of them were consistently nerfed.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khereg, on 08 February 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

Since we're talking about MechWarrior, I'll go with MW1 and 2. Possibly the other installments in the franchise also, but I'm an old fart and didn't play those.

I'm not here to try to make a definitive case against CoF - if PGI wants to implement it, I'm sure I'll adapt. But I personally think it's a bad idea and I've yet to see an argument to convince me otherwise over the last 3-ish years the idea's been floating around.

"TTK is too low right now"

"Its more realistic"

"Oh my gawsh, I stepped out from cover for a sec to look around and someone hit my CT from 1000m, its not fair weapons shouldn't be that accurate"

"If you want perfect accuracy go play Call of Duty"

"You just can't handle losing your crutch"

"You just want to keep exploiting the perfect convergence"

[Karl Streiger]

the good old discussion.... as old as this forums. I think the discussion started in November 2011 and never ended. but get some additional fuel in Februar 2013.

The delayed convergence of Closed Beta was the perfect spot. It was much worser in comparison to TexAss CoF when you did snap fire and fire an alpha. In 50% of all cases ALL Shots went wild.
So you had to wait some second before pumping 55dmg into one spot (4 PPC, 1Gauss on Atlas... heat was bad but still manageable to fire one alpha)

A CoF with different sizes would still allow you to hit a target but on the other hand it could also be helpful to increase the chance to hit a target. Think of the laser shotgun of the HBK-4P - would become a interesting scout hunter.

Of course there is still the "tale" of CoF and shots that didn't hit although they should have hit in other Arcade Arena Shooters.

[Khereg]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

"You just can't handle losing your crutch"

This one is my personal favorite since the irony seems to be completely lost on the people putting this out there.

[DivineEvil]

No, thank you. I hate random crap in other games, and don't want any more random crap in MWO, than it already has. Cone of fire will only make it even more convoluted with a brand new redundant system.

I'll better argue for fixing base heat management values for the rest of my life, than support using a problem to fix another problem.

Edited by DivineEvil, 08 February 2016 - 07:48 AM.

[Doman Hugin]

I like this idea, will require a greater skill of 'fire discipline' to get your accurate shots.

Only thing i'd change would be, firing a single weapon would remain pinpoint, giving those 1 big weapon mechs a purpose & chainfire a buff.

[process]

I like the idea of targeting-improved accuracy, but more with convergence rather than cone of fire. RNG shooting works in twitch FPS because:

1. high weapon damage/player health: only takes a few hits to kill
2. predictable recoil basically negates randomness, i.e. burst fire
3. respawn, or quick rounds

If anything I feel like OP's proposal nerfs hot and heavy brawlers, while buffing your already annoying 2 ERLL light pokers.

Edited by process, 08 February 2016 - 07:58 AM.

[adamts01]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

Clams OP I guess?

Excellent point, one I didn't consider. Targeting computers could give a slight advantage but most IS mechs can't equip them, so it needs to be a VERY slight advantage. I've always thought the cone penalty should be based on movement, heat and amount of weapons fired at once.

FupDup, on 08 February 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

The LB 2-X

By the way, the Inner Sphere doesn't even have Targeting Computers, and making it so you have to stand immobile to fire means that lights and fast mediums become useless because it gives their enemy a window of opportunity to alpha strike them in the face.

You're right, Targeting computers need to play a very small role indeed, if any at all. I think the LBX/SRM is still a terrible comparison, as there is a way to lessen/eliminate OP's COF. As for lights and mediums, let them slow down to take a shot at medium range, at close range it won't matter at all. I play light so I wouldn't argue anything that would be unreasonable for those guys.

DivineEvil, on 08 February 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

No, thank you. I hate random crap in other games, and don't want any more random crap in MWO, than it already has. Cone of fire will only make it even more convoluted with a brand new redundant system.

I'll better argue for fixing base heat management values for the rest of my life, than support using a problem to fix another problem.

Base heat is another issue that needs fixing. I hate randomness myself, that's why I rarely use Ultra ACs. The beauty of this is that it doesn't have to be random though. Build a sniper mech, or take shots while you don't have aim penalties, you can still have pixel perfect shot placement. And, this isn't a redundant system, we have nothing to counter huge pinpoint laser damage. Heat cap would lessen laser boats, but there will still be huge pinpoint alphas without another mechanic.

[TexAce]

process, on 08 February 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

I like the idea of targeting-improved accuracy, but more with convergence rather than cone of fire. RNG shooting works in twitch FPS because:

1. high weapon damage/player health: only takes a few hits to kill
2. predictable recoil basically negates randomness, i.e. burst fire
3. respawn, or quick rounds

If anything I feel like OP's proposal nerfs hot and heavy brawlers, while buffing your already annoying 2 ERLL light pokers.

Actually not, brawlers are so close to the enemy, such a small CoF wouldnt even matter that much. If you would run hot, you would probably spread your damage over 2-3 components at a 200-400m range, 1-2 components in a 150-250 range, none if even closer.

Snipers would need to reduce their weapon weight slightly to pack in the sniper-equipment like TC, CC and they would need to pack sniper modules (CoF reducing modules), removing slots for other modules. So they would have a trade off too.

I know that IS dont have Targting Computers, I think my proposal is "clear" enough for you guys to "get" the basic concept of what I'm proposing.

Edited by TexAce, 08 February 2016 - 08:05 AM.

[adamts01]

process, on 08 February 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

If anything I feel like OP's proposal nerfs hot and heavy brawlers, while buffing your already annoying 2 ERLL light pokers.

Well those aren't really the threat at the moment. Even if this did become a thing, the Raven 3L will never be OP again, it just doesn't have the dps that power creep has provided.

[L A V A]

I think the target lock mechanism for energy weapons is the easiest way to solve this problem.

A simple lock or no lock at all produces 75% damage.
A lock with target information displayed produces 100% damage.

Something has got to be done about convergence... but let's not take forever to solve it.

[Spheroid]

Anybody advocating a CoF (which I am not entire against) needs to simply ask themselves how stupid said system would look on a Hunchback-4P. The answer is very.

What's the point of installing weapon arrays if each element has huge independent accuracy errors?

If they have a shared gimbal then that just obsoletes every other design with widely spaced hardpoints.


Its lose-lose, don't even go there.

Edited by Spheroid, 08 February 2016 - 08:11 AM.

[adamts01]

L A V A, on 08 February 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

I think the target lock mechanism for energy weapons is the easiest way to solve this problem.

A simple lock or no lock at all produces 75% damage.
A lock with target information displayed produces 100% damage.

Something has got to be done about convergence... but let's not take forever to solve it.

That's worse than ghost range, and hurts laser mechs that aren't the problem. COF is realistic and can be avoided by mech build and playstyle. I think it's the best way to go.

Spheroid, on 08 February 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Anybody advocating a CoF (which I am not entire against) needs to simply ask themselves how stupid said system would look on a Hunchback-4P. The answer is very.

What's the point of installing weapon arrays if each element has huge independent accuracy errors?

If they have a shared gimbal then that just obsoletes every other design with widely spaced hardpoints.


Its lose-lose, don't even go there.

Convergence would be a buff to the hunback, ravel 3l, shadowhawk, but they still wouldn't be OP. Anyway, we're talking about COF, it would affect them just as much as any other mech.

[Hit the Deck]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

You're missing the concept. It doesn't matter the distance. The same size circle could all hit CT on a Locust at 100 but cover an entire Atlas at 800.

Exactly, and that's why the crosshair with variable diameter like this is "gamey" because the diameter doesn't serve real purpose for aiming but only to tell you the state of your CoF, i.e. how tight it is.

[L A V A]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

That's worse than ghost range, and hurts laser mechs that aren't the problem. COF is realistic and can be avoided by mech build and playstyle. I think it's the best way to go.

Hey, we've lived with the problem for years... it's only recently got totally out of hand.

Why ask for a solution which we might not see for a year + (with all the bugs that will come with it) when we can get something relatively fast and is fairly easy to implement.

[Mister Blastman]

Cone of fire is a bad idea. No thx to randomwarrior online.

[TexAce]

I added an alternative version to the OP which looks like this and takes walking/standing more into consideration

[1453 R]

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

you mean like in any other FPS?

What we have at the moment is an exception, not the rule, also a really bad exception.
Plus even fully alpha'd the CoF is so minimal to just reduce pinpointing, its no where as big to miss a mech by thousand miles and shoot a teammate.

Moomtazz, on 08 February 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

Planetside 1 had CoF and it was pretty crappy. However, those players with good aim would still consistently beat those with bad aim.

If the goal is to increase TTK, why not simply reduce weapon damage? Unless you go with a system that randomly places shots or the cone is the size of a mech, the more skilled player will win. But who would want to play in a system like that?

Greyhart, on 08 February 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

Ok I see the argument on the loss of skill with a CoF BUT can anyone name a FPS where there is not a CoF?

If no one can name a good FPS without a CoF it means that everyone is used to a CoF and expects it.

Of Course I would say all the 12 year olds playing CoD lack skillz as well as intelligence, but that isn't to do with CoF.

Greyhart, on 08 February 2016 - 06:40 AM, said:

Ok which other FPS has pin point fire?

Bishop Steiner, on 08 February 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

actually pixel perfection aiming is more arcadey, just putting that out there.....

So Fup alluded to it, but I'm going to spell it out.

'Cone of Fire', as very nicely illustrated by the original poster (nice work on that by the way, Tex), is a concept that does not work with Mechwarrior Online because, while everyone is just super-ultra quick to go "YOU MEAN LIKE EVERY OTHER FPS HAS?!?!?!" whenever someone mentions that CoF would be problematic in MWO...there are numerous underlying mechanical differences between MWO and the Modern AAA Shooter (MAAAS). As I posted in the last convergence thread that p!ssed me off, and as I will now post here, and as will be posted in every other convergence thread I spot that manages to p!ss me off:

Imagine you're playing a MAAAS game, with the normal MAAAS cone of fire nonsense, except you are no longer able to ADS. You have no ability, whatsoever, to mitigate your hipfire inaccuracy, you're forced to hipfire every single shot you make.

Now, take that same hipfire-only MAAAS, and give everyone in it a bolt-action rifle. You can take one, singular shoot every second or two tops, and you cannot aim that shot. No ADS or scope, remember? You have a bolt gun you can hipfire, and your job is to kill other players with it.

Now. Take that hipfire-boltgun MAAAS, and give every player in it thirty times more health than they normally have. You have players with 3000% increased health, using bolt-action rifles to try and kill their enemies, which they are unable to aim.

Does that sound like a fun time to anyone here? Does that sound like the next MAAAS mega-hit series?

Because that's what cone of fire/Convergence Fix adherents are constantly, constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY trying to turn MWO into. A sad bad game where everyone is trying to kill people with un-aimable bolt-action rifles through several tons of armor.

You. Cannot. Remove. A. Player's. Ability. To. Aim. And. Hit. Their. Target. In. An. FPS.

The MAAAS uses several interlocking mechanics to allow players to mitigate or eliminate cone-of-fire inaccuracy and allow them to take aimed shots. I have seen zero MWO cone-of-fire proposals that include the same - they simply expect the player to eat the newly introduced, HSR-killing randomized inaccuracy with a smile on their face and go "THIS IS SO MUCH BETTER!" because they're salty and bitter over lasers actually being good for the first time in MWO history.

Well, guess what. Not so much.

Koniving, a long while back, introduced the perfect plan for defusing the whole pinpoint issue. The third-person camera's reticle bobs and sways with the natural movements of a 'Mech - simply introduce that reticle motion to the first-person cockpit view as well. Fire still goes exactly where it's aimed, as is only right and proper, but the aimpoint itself shifts with the motion of the machine - also right and proper. Players need to time their shots with the movements of their rides to hit precisely, and the motion of the reticle spreads laser damage naturally over the course of a shot. Clean, simple, does not invalidate HSR like randomized-cone-of-fire does, does not eliminate snipers from the game like randomized-cone-of-fire does, and is pretty much already in the system.

What's wrong with that? Why do we have to turn MWO into a sad bad MAAAS where nobody hits anything they aim at ever again?

[Malleus011]

Beautifully presented proposal, OP. And a good idea.

I'd like to see your % of throttle and jumping influence the CoF as well; movement affecting accuracy is a Battletech staple.

[PyckenZot]

Best CoF proposal I've seen so far. Even though I had stepped away from the idea, I'm now back to leaning towards supporting this. It all makes kinda sense. The cones are not huge (thus still allowing quasi pinpoint in a brawl) snipers do get the option of having pinpoint accuracy with target locks and what else AND we would finally get heat-induced targetting errors!

Edited by PyckenZot, 08 February 2016 - 08:25 AM.