1094 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

400th post on this thread. Phew. In 24 hours.

Thanks for all who voted for it with a like.

I'll make a 2nd alternate version where CoF is only used as a high heat, alpha strike punisher, with minimal spread while walking (as in 800 meters, 2-3 mech locations wide). I think this would present a good compromise. The CoF while alphaing during extreme heat would be wider than in my last proposal though, otherwise we could leave it as is and the game could continue to be minimally viable.

Many have wanted heat effects in this game for a long time, no one can deny they would fit in this game, especially in this BATTLETECH game. Its completely OK for a MechWarrior game to have high heat effects, this could be a good start, which could be tested on the PTS.

It could work so good, that Ghost heat and other stuff we introduced as Bandaids could finally be deleted from this game altogether.

It saddens me though that the ones who complain about my proposal clearly are exeggerating immensly in how much it would affect real skilled aiming. Because really guys, you have eyes, you see the examples, its nowhere as bad as you guys are painting it would be. It rewards good piloting, it rewards good heat management by giving you pin point accuracy, while it punish bad piloting with high CoFs. Thats it. But no, a valid argument is being put to trash by saying "fear the SRM meta!". Seriously? How can you not laugh why typing this?

Edited by TexAce, 09 February 2016 - 05:24 AM.

[Lockon StratosII]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 09 February 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

I also am not a programmer, but I have no recollection of more reticle points being a problem nor have I seen other references to it.

That doesn't mean it isn't. That's up to PGI.

But, s a mechanism, it does satisfy all the conflicting requirements very efficiently and much more simply than CoF or dynamic convergence!

Every new reticle point means that there will be a weapon attached to it and that server will need to calculate new flight path for said weapon(s), increasing the server load which is a commodity as it is right now

[Wolfways]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

Lol, never once did I say that lower players would be "raised up". I only said the skill cap would be lowered, and that newbies are falsely hoping that CoF will help them compete better. I'm sorry that you're too unaware of how competitive games work to understand the difference. My opinion on this has been the same for years; this is a very old argument, and your strawman arguments aren't any different than they were then.

Hoping that CoF will help newbies compete better? Why would they do that when everyone already knows how to compete better? Meta = easy mode. Also incredibly boring imo which is why I stopped using it.

[Wolfways]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 04:50 AM, said:

No, that's exactly what that adds up to. It doesn't take one hit to kill an enemy, it takes several, repeated attacks on specific components, which is exactly why CoF is such a problem. If the RNG decides to shuffle half my damage off of the side torso and onto an arm while I'm engaged, that damage is effectively wasted, and if the opponent gets better rolls, RNG declares a winner rather than piloting skill.

That is not okay.

If your enemy is firing back at you your piloting skill already failed.

[Varvar86]

Too many pages to read. But, PLEASE DON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You really want this?


I'm not against convergence but it shouldn't involve dice generator. Let it be no convergence in torso mounted weapons represented with separate crosshairs for RL and RT locked on preset distance. But at least we will exactly know where projectile will hit looking at crosshairs.

[Jenovah]

Metus regem, on 08 February 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

Well considering I've spent time in the cockpit of an AH-64D, fired the weapon systems, seen the 30mm hit target as well as around the target first hand, it gives me a bit of personal perspective on mounted weapon systems....

That being said, I don't see how you could possibly be threatened by something that puts a bit more simulation into this game.... It's not like I think we need full on physics from what would happen with recoil from things like large bore AC's.....

With the 30mm you're absolutely correct, because as you are moving with running/diving fire, and even with hovering fire your aimpoint may remain the same however the release point for the ballistic round is constantly changing as well as dealing with rotor wash; so trajectory for each individual round is different. Now, when it comes to self lasing for the AGM or even buddy lasing- whether its the 64, 130 or any other A/C with the capability, the laser remains constant to the aimpoint regardless of the movement of the A/C so long as you hold said aimpoint.

[TheArisen]

What if, instead of RNG, we got defensive techs to increase TTK? (Although I do like the heat penalties idea)

[Ratpoison]

TexAce, on 09 February 2016 - 05:15 AM, said:

400th post on this thread. Phew. In 24 hours.

Thanks for all who voted for it with a like.

I'll make a 2nd alternate version where CoF is only used as a high heat, alpha strike punisher, with minimal spread while walking (as in 800 meters, 2-3 mech locations wide). I think this would present a good compromise.

Many have wanted heat effects in this game for a long time, no one can deny they would fit in this game, especially in this BATTLETECH game. Its completely OK for a MechWarrior game to have high heat effects, this could be a good start, which could be tested on the PTS.

It could work so good, that Ghost heat and other stuff we introduced as Bandaids could finally be deleted from this game altogether.

Considering how much people already struggle with just overheating, I seriously doubt that it will go over well. A complex heat scale with varying effects will be unintuitive and confusing pretty much any way you put it. Newer players aren't going to understand it at all, and it's not going to be easy for them to keep track of what the heat is doing as it fluctuates.

[TexAce]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

Considering how much people already struggle with just overheating, I seriously doubt that it will go over well. A complex heat scale with varying effects will be unintuitive and confusing pretty much any way you put it. Newer players aren't going to understand it at all, and it's not going to be easy for them to keep track of what the heat is doing as it fluctuates.

I am pretty sure that a CoF while having high heat or alphaing is more intuitive and easier to comprehend than this abomination that is called Ghost Heat, which we currently have now.

And if the steamers who came to this game and are enjoying it can look past the stupidness that is Ghost Heat, without any documentation inside the game about it, they can for sure accept a CoF on high heat. A simple "Target Computer Overload" warning in the HUD would do the trick.

But keep denying it.

Edited by TexAce, 09 February 2016 - 05:29 AM.

[Jenovah]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 08 February 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

There's a way to implement a "cone of fire" mechanic without adding RNG. Instead of random deviation within the circle, have fixed deviation. When moving, hot, unstable, or some combination thereof, arm weapons always fire slightly to their respective side, CT weapons always fire somewhat low, ST weapons always fire somewhat high and to their respective side, and head weapons always fire somewhat high.

The Arm vs CT vs ST is not cone of fire, it's convergence. In WWII aircraft with wing mounted guns had to set their convergence at a certain range so all guns hit at the same spot at that distance. Today we have targeting computers and more to account for this. In no way will I ever believe that in a 'mech I cant have a computer + the range finder in my targeting system re-compute the correct convergence vector.

[Ratpoison]

Wolfways, on 09 February 2016 - 05:21 AM, said:

If your enemy is firing back at you your piloting skill already failed.

The scenario was obviously assuming even ground, though you should look up what "trading" means. It's more important than you seem to think.

[Dino Might]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 04:59 AM, said:

Alright, I ignored this the first time but it's bothering me. CoF is NOT a good model for what occurs in real life competitive target shooting. Bullet deviation in real life is affected by a slew of factors that don't exist in this game, including wind and other environmental factors, the specific model and condition of the gun being used, the shooter's familiarity with the behavior of the gun, the shooter's stance and technique, etc. There are dozens of additional factors that competitive shooters take into account when they compete, to compensate for the factors that create bullet deviation.

What competitive shooters do NOT do, is pray to RNGesus.

CoF is praying to RNGesus. CoF is bad for competition.

Reread - it is a good MODEL. If you can create the deterministic calculations and run them in a game engine (and you'll have to develop your own decision mechanic for wind shifts and the like), then by all means. But CoF is a simplification of all of those factors.

Much like neutron transport - while the actual path of the neutron is probably deterministic, the model we use is probabilistic in nature, and it works really really well.

Take the data from comp target shooting, and compare it with the CoF MODEL, and you will see that the model works very very well.

Modeling is all about simplifying the complex multitude of factors in a deterministic environment and creating a predictive machine. That's what we're wanting to do here.

Competitive shooters will manage their natural point of aim, breathing, environmental factors, etc. to minimize their CoF, and then shoot. Call it praying to RNG or not, there is always some sight instability that you ignore while shooting. That is effectively modeled with CoF. The ones that can minimize that deviation, (modeled by CoF) are the ones that win, consistently.

Edited by Dino Might, 09 February 2016 - 05:37 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 09 February 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

I just find it amazing that there IS a middle option and no one even seems to acknowledge it.

Multi-point reticle, as below:

[o x X x o]

The "o"s are the arm reticles, the small "x"s are the ST reticles and the big "X" is the CT and missile (lock) reticle.

No need for CoF, no need for convergence, no worry about HSR, breaks up then super-alpha and maintains pinpoint accuracy.

Moreover, it's simple.

This is not the first time I have suggested it. Why is this compromise being ignored!?

This is not an "either/or" problem with the only options being convergence or CoF. There IS another viable option!

Mister Blastman is also a proponent of this idea but your proposal still lacks an important detail - that the crosshairs offset from the center have to be constantly adjusted/redrawn according to the range you are aiming at. If you think that this could look bad in game when your point of aim change quickly from place to place (this is not World of Warships where you could hold a point of aim at certain range for a long time), consider how much mental calculation you have to do when you want to lead a shot at a moving Mech!

[Ratpoison]

TexAce, on 09 February 2016 - 05:28 AM, said:

I am pretty sure that a CoF while having high heat or alphaing is more intuitive and easier to comprehend than this abomination that is called Ghost Heat, which we currently have now.

And if the steamers who came to this game and are enjoying it can look past the stupidness that is Ghost Heat, without any documentation inside the game about it, they can for sure accept a CoF on high heat. A simple "Target Computer Overload" warning in the HUD would do the trick.

But keep denying it.

Not even close, ghost heat is far easier to understand and adapt to than invisible RNGs and complex heat effects. You even get a nice warning when your build is putting you at risk to trigger it, that defines the rules of the effect clearly. Random factors that depend on other factors which could also depend on other factors themselves? No where even close to being that easy to comprehend. Alienating the casual playerbase isn't going to do anything except cause the game serious financial damage.

[Wolfways]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

The scenario was obviously assuming even ground,

In which case piloting still failed. Better piloting means getting the advantage.

Quote

though you should look up what "trading" means. It's more important than you seem to think.

I know what it is, and why I avoid it if at all possible.

[TexAce]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Not even close, ghost heat is far easier to understand and adapt to than invisible RNGs and complex heat effects. You even get a nice warning when your build is putting you at risk to trigger it, that defines the rules of the effect clearly. Random factors that depend on other factors which could also depend on other factors themselves? No where even close to being that easy to comprehend. Alienating the casual playerbase isn't going to do anything except cause the game serious financial damage.

OK lol now I declare you delusional.

Or, wait, Paul is that you?!

Edited by TexAce, 09 February 2016 - 05:43 AM.

[Ratpoison]

Dino Might, on 09 February 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

But CoF is a simplification of all of those factors.

It is not. It is an ELIMINATION of those factors in favor of a full randomizer, which is the key difference that makes it unacceptable. CoF still fails to model real target shooting by your own definition, as it does not attempt to make any calculations outside of RNG.

[Ratpoison]

TexAce, on 09 February 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

OK lol now I declare you delusional.

Or, what, Paul is that you?!

Okay, I did the same with you quite a while ago, which I guess was a good idea since you think "can't fire more than 2 PPCs at once" is difficult to comprehend, while a complex heat scale with varied effects that contribute to your RNG factors isn't.

[Lugh]

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

you mean like in any other FPS?

What we have at the moment is an exception, not the rule, also a really bad exception.
Plus even fully alpha'd the CoF is so minimal to just reduce pinpointing, its no where as big to miss a mech by thousand miles and shoot a teammate.

Closed beta had convergence mechanics attempted (the pinpoint skill is a hold over from that). It failed horribly. The crying on the forums from the twitch CoDkid crowd was so fierce they removed the mechanic(despite the fact that you only had to wait .5 seconds to get back to best convergence) this was because light pilots were ******** when it came to slowing their roll to aim, and simultaneously crying about knockdowns. .

Both mechanics are now gone, which is a shame because they were awesome and those that could use them appropriately had true 'skill'.

[Ratpoison]

Wolfways, on 09 February 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

In which case piloting still failed. Better piloting means getting the advantage.

I know what it is, and why I avoid it if at all possible.

Just so you know, chilling in the back refusing to help your team make trades isn't "better piloting". Piloting skill is also not a trump card that negates the need for aim, like you seem to think. Keep practicing, you'll get a grasp of what you should be doing soon enough.