1094 replies to this topic

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 01:23 AM, said:

Excellent, in that case can we delete all CoF topics forever since it's already in? I would certainly call that a win-win.


PGI has stated multiple times that they can't push more convergence points for engine limitation reasons. The netcode has to keep track of everyone's convergence points, so 48 convergence points now becomes 120 convergence points per game. That's an enormous leap, that would result in extreme lag if it didn't just drop players completely. Most CoF suggestions trigger this same problem, as they often expect half a dozen lasers or more to split apart with independent, randomized points of impact. This is part of why CoF is practically unworkable for this game, as you'd probably still have to have perfect convergence within your CoF like how the JJ accuracy debuff works, which isn't exactly sensical.

But I suppose that's partly why these topics are dropped quickly after they are brought up. Most are too full of their own ideas to realize they can't be done.

As I understood it, PGI said they can't use dynamic convergence for HSR reasons. However, we do already have functioning CoF (though I don't want all weapons to use CoF, hence my suggestion).

The lag comes from the ever changing (an thus, ever recording) nature of dynamic convergence. That is, dynamic convergence is effectively an infinite number of pixel points which change instant to instant and which the game and servers must constantly monitor that creates the lag and loss.

Static (instantaneous) convergence is what we have now and more points shouldn't make further problems, that I can see. These points are set and much more easily recorded by the game and servers.

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 09 February 2016 - 01:33 AM.

[Krivvan]

What makes something more realistic is irrelevant. This is not a sim.

As for the comparisons to how real life firearms require skill, then yes, they do, except that doesn't tell you anything about what reality would be like if there was no elements of randomness at all.

In the past, there are recorded instances of musket-wielding soldiers standing in front of each other exchanging shots. Whoever won the engagement was the one that was luckiest and had one of their shots actually land on the opponent first. There is still skill involved. The rate at which you reloaded your musket increased the chance that you would win. However it's very inconsistent and a more skilled soldier could easily just get unlucky and get hit. Now, as firearms became more accurate, the soldier that would more accurately win such an engagement is more likely to be the one who can accurately aim and fire their weapon first. You can argue that as weapons became more accurate, they became more "skillful."

Now, elements of randomness in games don't strip one's ability to be skilled at a game. You will still have skilled players. What it does though, is make the chance that a skilled player will come up on top over a less skilled player less consistent. Whether that is something PGI wants or not is a decision of what they want the game to cater to. A game like Hearthstone caters to a more broad and casual audience since a worse player still has the chance of winning. A game like SC2 caters to a more core audience since a sufficiently skilled player will almost never lose against a much weaker player. Counterstrike has a "cone", but it's not random at all and has a consistent pattern.

That said, it would be a pretty big change, or it will be small enough as to have not mattered at all. Any big change would be a bad idea to introduce to the game at this stage, and the players who like the game for what it is now would be alienated, and for what I imagine is very little gain except to appease a pretty small minority of current players of the game.

Edited by Krivvan, 09 February 2016 - 01:49 AM.

[SQW]

Krivvan, on 09 February 2016 - 01:43 AM, said:

What makes something more realistic is irrelevant. This is not a sim.

You are right, it's not. But games needs a degree of skill to be fun, especially one using the Battletech name, and aiming with perfect accuracy is just such a low skill ceiling even CoD doesn't use it.

Currently, due to zero convergence, being the first to alpha the highest number of laser usually net you a win. Team work, diversified weapons, heat management etc all becomes irrelevant because solo rambo with a laser boat is just as viable. The cof crowd just want to stop <15sec TTKs so it plays like a Battletech game and the anti-cof crowd is against it because it means their way of playing MWO wouldn't work as well.

All the talk of skill etc are just bs argument translating to "I want laser alpha to stay the way it is. This old dog ain't no learning new tricks!"

[Ratpoison]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 09 February 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

As I understood it, PGI said they can't use dynamic convergence for HSR reasons. However, we do already have functioning CoF (though I don't want all weapons to use CoF, hence my suggestion).

The lag comes from the ever changing (an thus, ever recording) nature of dynamic convergence. That is, dynamic convergence is effectively an infinite number of pixel points which change instant to instant and which the game and servers must constantly monitor that creates the lag and loss.

Static (instantaneous) convergence is what we have now and more points shouldn't make further problems, that I can see. These points are set and much more easily recorded by the game and servers.

I recall what you're talking about, but I think that may be separate from the issue I'm mentioning. I could be wrong though, this requires a level of familiarity with the engine that I don't have at this point, and I can't remember exactly what I read on it.

SQW, on 09 February 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

You are right, it's not. But games needs a degree of skill to be fun, especially one using the Battletech name, and aiming with perfect accuracy is just such a low skill ceiling even CoD doesn't use it.

Currently, due to zero convergence, being the first to alpha the highest number of laser usually net you a win. Team work, diversified weapons, heat management etc all becomes irrelevant because solo rambo with a laser boat is just as viable. The cof crowd just want to stop <15sec TTKs so it plays like a Battletech game and the anti-cof crowd is against it because it means their way of playing MWO wouldn't work as well.

All the talk of skill etc are just bs argument translating to "I want laser alpha to stay the way it is. This old dog ain't no learning new tricks!"

Yeah yeah, all competitives are devils who want to club seals, they trashed you and your friends, they ruined CW, we get it, and we still don't care about your sad little strawman excuse to push a feature.

[Gattsus]

I twitted to Russ and Paul. Praise to your gods/hope that they hear us.

[SQW]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 02:15 AM, said:

Yeah yeah, all competitives are devils who want to club seals, they trashed you and your friends, they ruined CW, we get it, and we still don't care about your sad little strawman excuse to push a feature.

Haha, if you think being able to laser boat in MWO is skill then you are kidding yourself. I laser boat myself and it's easy; far easier than ACs or PPCs which is why my WHMs runs lasers instead of ppcs.

If you are so LEET, why don't you swap out the lasers?

You are the one using strawman by pretending this cof penalizes skill players while everyone but you know scan hit weapons are just easy mode.

You do agree hit scan weapons are the easiest to use right?

[Risen]

The CoF mechanic has it's pros but my Problem is the Bonus to accuracy you will receive for Standing still.
I Play MWO before WoT because I can move and don't have to camp in a bush 95% of a match and can't hit a barn door while moving.


About convergence:
Why not just kill HSR and go back to closed beta convergence.
As Long as your ping is not jumping wildly you will learn how far to aim Forward to hit a moving target.

[Ratpoison]

SQW, on 09 February 2016 - 02:29 AM, said:

Haha, if you think being able to laser boat in MWO is skill then you are kidding yourself. I laser boat myself and it's easy; far easier than ACs or PPCs which is why my WHMs runs lasers instead of ppcs.

If you are so LEET, why don't you swap out the lasers?

You are the one using strawman by pretending this cof penalizes skill players while everyone but you know scan hit weapons are just easy mode.

You do agree hit scan weapons are the easiest to use right?

Claiming that competitive players only use lasers, and only hate CoF because it will damage that meta, is a sad and ignorant strawman to use indeed. It's actually only the mediocre players who rely on the laser meta; competitive players will adapt to whatever the meta is, as they always have before. I've kitted out mechs for use with every item in the game, because as a competitive player I know the meta constantly changes and there are always new tactics to be devised. I'm not unique among competitive players in thinking this way, either. If you smash the laser meta, we'll be just fine feeling out and picking up the next PPFLD meta, or LRM meta, or brawler meta, or whatever other meta comes around.

And we wont be okay with you adding a lame diceroll cone of fire then, either.

[Dino Might]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

I do shoot competitive, and CoF a la CoD or WoT is not realistic. The system that Arma, AA, and DoD had was a fixed CoF relative to the MOA of their real world analog while having an accuracy penalty based on natural, fluid movements that are predictable to skilled, practiced marksmen.

I'm all in favor of that. I'm not in favor of a generic CoF ripped from popular Xbox FPS games.

^ I did not understand your point. Agree with you completely on the fixed CoF with modifiers from movement and heat that are deterministic. At the end of the day though, there is still RNG, which is a realistic model that half the "MWO masters" are dead-set against for some odd reason (not that surprising - it would require more thought and skill than point and click).

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

And we wont be okay with you adding a lame diceroll cone of fire then, either.

Because you'll need to consider piloting, heat, and other factors? It's an issue that you can't control everything mindlessly. Sorry that some people would prefer that. But I'm not surprised with half the players running around in this game never taking off arm-lock and alpha'ing every shot.

Seriously, give a solid reason why it wouldn't be a good idea, other than "us comp types wouldn't like it," or, "it wouldn't be as fun." - not everyone prefers hello kitty island adventure (i.e., your definition of fun is not the end-all-be-all).
It's much more realistic, and it would work better than what we have now. So, that solid reason...I'll wait...

Edited by Dino Might, 09 February 2016 - 03:55 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Rather than reading the entire thread of 20+ pages I'll just say that I'm against the idea of anything but pinpoint accuracy.

I like this game because it is one of the few games that is different in that it doesn't have spread on its weaponry, doesn't have recoil, and has perfect precision even while moving. I'm here for the sake of convergence, it rewards pilots when their aim is perfect and in most cases pilots aren't, but it allows it.

Even the old mechwarrior games had perfect precision. I joke a lot about just how far some games go with cones of fire, just look at Counter Strike, that stuff is just laughable, especially when they throw in some guns that have no spread while stationary, such as the AWP.

I know the OP didn't mention increased spread from movement, but still I dislike it.

[Ratpoison]

Dino Might, on 09 February 2016 - 03:54 AM, said:

^ I did not understand your point. Agree with you completely on the fixed CoF with modifiers from movement and heat that are deterministic. At the end of the day though, there is still RNG, which is a realistic model that half the "MWO masters" are dead-set against for some odd reason (not that surprising - it would require more thought and skill than point and click).



Because you'll need to consider piloting, heat, and other factors? It's an issue that you can't control everything mindlessly. Sorry that some people would prefer that. But I'm not surprised with half the players running around in this game never taking off arm-lock and alpha'ing every shot.

Seriously, give a solid reason why it wouldn't be a good idea, other than "us comp types wouldn't like it."
It's much more realistic, and it would work better than what we have now.

Accuracy RNG is not okay in a game where the primary goal is to deal repeated damage to targeted components, neither is encouraging camping to avoid it(ala WoT), and definitely not because an unintuitive heat scale arbitrarily says so. This is a competitive game, and that means creating a balanced, skill based, competitively interesting game comes before realism when the conflict arises. Adding a randomizing factor that can affect the outcome of fights that arbitrarily is not an okay thing to do to the playing field.

[oldradagast]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

Claiming that competitive players only use lasers, and only hate CoF because it will damage that meta, is a sad and ignorant strawman to use indeed. It's actually only the mediocre players who rely on the laser meta; competitive players will adapt to whatever the meta is, as they always have before. I've kitted out mechs for use with every item in the game, because as a competitive player I know the meta constantly changes and there are always new tactics to be devised. I'm not unique among competitive players in thinking this way, either. If you smash the laser meta, we'll be just fine feeling out and picking up the next PPFLD meta, or LRM meta, or brawler meta, or whatever other meta comes around.

And we wont be okay with you adding a lame diceroll cone of fire then, either.

Lol. If you're half as "competitive" as you claim, you know damn well the meta has been about nothing but pin-point, near instant damage for as long as the game has been around, barring a few weeks here and there of LRM-dominance due to bugs and errors. And if you're half as "skilled" as you claim you are, you'll adapt without problems to this proposal.

But that's not what this is about. This is about the bottom-scraping "top tier" players who's only advantage over the "stupid, useless noobs who clearly hate teamwork because they don't like being stomped by teams" is having a few more lasers on their "skill boat" and slightly faster reflexes. Take away even a hair of their perfect convergence, and they've got nothing, and they know it.

Anyone who actually pretends that this change would "reduce skill" - as if the penalty only applies to the higher tier player or some idiocy - has zero idea what skill is in MWO or in life in general. CONVERGENCE IS NOT SKILL.

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

Accuracy RNG is not okay in a game where the primary goal is to deal repeated damage to targeted components, neither is encouraging camping to avoid it(ala WoT), and definitely not because an unintuitive heat scale arbitrarily says so. This is a competitive game, and that means creating a balanced, skill based, competitively interesting game comes before realism when the conflict arises. Adding a randomizing factor that can affect the outcome of fights that arbitrarily is not an okay thing to do to the playing field.

Right, because all competitive games with random elements are total failures where "anybody" can win at any time. That's while there are no top tier players in everything from poker to professional sports - it's all random, and totally skill-less people win those games all the time.

I guess you're stuck playing chess and - oh, wait... whoever goes first in chess is determined randomly, and white has an edge from going first. I guess that game is out, too, as being yet another haven where the unskilled beat the skilled all the time...

Get back to us when you have an argument that is not based in groundless hyperbola.

[Ratpoison]

oldradagast, on 09 February 2016 - 04:09 AM, said:

Lol. If you're half as "competitive" as you claim, you know damn well the meta has been about nothing but pin-point, near instant damage for as long as the game has been around, barring a few weeks here and there of LRM-dominance due to bugs and errors. And if you're half as "skilled" as you claim you are, you'll adapt without problems to this proposal.

But that's not what this is about. This is about the bottom-scraping "top tier" players who's only advantage over the "stupid, useless noobs who clearly hate teamwork because they don't like being stomped by teams" is having a few more lasers on their "skill boat" and slightly faster reflexes. Take away even a hair of their perfect convergence, and they've got nothing, and they know it.

Anyone who actually pretends that this change would "reduce skill" - as if the penalty only applies to the higher tier player or some idiocy - has zero idea what skill is in MWO or in life in general. CONVERGENCE IS NOT SKILL.

As if RNG is supposed to be more skill than aiming? Okay. But then again, you are the guy who can't make a post without declaring all opposition as evil.

But you're just laughably wrong about what CoF would do to those players. The lessening of the skill cap isn't going to hurt competitive players, it's going to hurt everyone else. Competitive players will have no problem abusing a lower skill cap, using camping tactics and grouped large weapons to circumvent the RNG. The real rage will be from all of the puggies who suddenly can't stop the endless stomps, since they wont know how to abuse the dampened game system like the competitive players will.

Don't chase the golden goose of CoF. It's not going to help you out or do what you want.

[oldradagast]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 04:20 AM, said:

But you're just laughably wrong about what CoF would do to those players. The lessening of the skill cap isn't going to hurt competitive players, it's going to hurt everyone else. Competitive players will have no problem abusing a lower skill cap, using camping tactics and grouped large weapons to circumvent the RNG. The real rage will be from all of the puggies who suddenly can't stop the endless stomps, since they wont know how to abuse the dampened game system like the competitive players will.

You're so blinded by your hatred that your argument is all over the place and has ceased to make sense.

First, you raged about how a CoF would destroy the "high skills" required in this game, as if convergence is skill, and removing convergence would somehow magically take away your ability to aim, lead a target, act as a unit, and do all those other things that require actual skill. As if having a bit of damage scatter at long ranges would make all the "stupid noobs" suddenly be elevated to the level of skilled players.

Having lost that argument, now you're turning it around and trying to pretend that only LOW skill players benefit from perfect convergence, as if high-skilled ones don't get any benefit from having all their damage go to a single pixel?! And let's not even talk about the silliness of how only "high skill players will be able to abuse the system" What "abuse?" - We're talking about a small, random cone of fire that effects everyone equally! There's no "abuse" there - aside from cheats - except actually being able to aim and properly approach a target, something which is entirely skill-based and which has nothing to do with convergence.

You've got nothing to defend your position other than "I don't like it!" and you know it - you're now arguing the exact opposite of your arguments before, and you still aren't making any sense. Convergence is not skill!

Edited by oldradagast, 09 February 2016 - 04:30 AM.

[Dino Might]

These people don't understand statistics and laws of averages. We are not playing an OSOK shooter. It does and should take more than one shot to kill an enemy mech. The RNG in a CoF mechanic will, therefore, not make the entire game a dice roll, as you so want to put it. Again, go check out competitive target shooting and tell me how CoF is not a good model for what occurs. And then tell me that those guys on the President's Hundred are a bunch of skilless noobs that just got lucky.

I'll offer the best argument to-date against CoF:

It's a new system for MWO and it might not be implemented well. It might take too many tweaks and, without proper testing, would potentially impact a lot of the balance work that has been done so far.

My opinion is that we should put a CoF system in on the test server, and keep developing it until it's 4.0, ready to go. It will take upwards of 6 months, and maybe PGI doesn't have or want to spend the resources on it. Fine. But to say it will make the game worse and pretend it's an objective viewpoint is laughable.

Edited by Dino Might, 09 February 2016 - 04:37 AM.

[Ratpoison]

oldradagast, on 09 February 2016 - 04:29 AM, said:

You're so blinded by your hatred that your argument is all over the place and has ceased to make sense.

First, you raged about how a CoF would destroy the "high skills" required in this game, as if convergence is skill, and removing convergence would somehow magically take away your ability to aim, lead a target, act as a unit, and do all those other things that require actual skill. As if having a bit of damage scatter at long ranges would make all the "stupid noobs" suddenly be elevated to the level of skilled players.

Having lost that argument, now you're turning it around and trying to pretend that only LOW skill players benefit from perfect convergence, as if high-skilled ones don't get any benefit from having all their damage go to a single pixel?! And let's not even talk about the silliness of how only "high skill players will be able to abuse the system" What "abuse?" - We're talking about a small, random cone of fire that effects everyone equally! There's no "abuse" there - aside from cheats - except actually being able to aim and properly approach a target, something which is entirely skill-based and which has nothing to do with convergence.

You've got nothing to defend your position other than "I don't like it!" and you know it - you're now arguing the exact opposite of your arguments before, and you still aren't making any sense. Convergence is not skill!

Lol, never once did I say that lower players would be "raised up". I only said the skill cap would be lowered, and that newbies are falsely hoping that CoF will help them compete better. I'm sorry that you're too unaware of how competitive games work to understand the difference. My opinion on this has been the same for years; this is a very old argument, and your strawman arguments aren't any different than they were then.

[Ratpoison]

Dino Might, on 09 February 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

We are not playing an OSOK shooter. It does and should take more than one shot to kill an enemy mech. The RNG in a CoF mechanic will, therefore, not make the entire game a dice roll

No, that's exactly what that adds up to. It doesn't take one hit to kill an enemy, it takes several, repeated attacks on specific components, which is exactly why CoF is such a problem. If the RNG decides to shuffle half my damage off of the side torso and onto an arm while I'm engaged, that damage is effectively wasted, and if the opponent gets better rolls, RNG declares a winner rather than piloting skill.

That is not okay.

[Ratpoison]

Dino Might, on 09 February 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

Again, go check out competitive target shooting and tell me how CoF is not a good model for what occurs.

Alright, I ignored this the first time but it's bothering me. CoF is NOT a good model for what occurs in real life competitive target shooting. Bullet deviation in real life is affected by a slew of factors that don't exist in this game, including wind and other environmental factors, the specific model and condition of the gun being used, the shooter's familiarity with the behavior of the gun, the shooter's stance and technique, etc. There are dozens of additional factors that competitive shooters take into account when they compete, to compensate for the factors that create bullet deviation.

What competitive shooters do NOT do, is pray to RNGesus.

CoF is praying to RNGesus. CoF is bad for competition.

[Lockon StratosII]

That time of the year again? What happened this time to cause an uproar of convergence threads?

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 02:15 AM, said:

I recall what you're talking about, but I think that may be separate from the issue I'm mentioning. I could be wrong though, this requires a level of familiarity with the engine that I don't have at this point, and I can't remember exactly what I read on it.

I also am not a programmer, but I have no recollection of more reticle points being a problem nor have I seen other references to it.

That doesn't mean it isn't. That's up to PGI.

But, s a mechanism, it does satisfy all the conflicting requirements very efficiently and much more simply than CoF or dynamic convergence!