1094 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

Then consider a 14 small laser Nova. Without ghost heat that would be a very manageable 70 point alpha out of a 50 ton mech. I feel like ghost heat was a terrible bandaid but it was an effective solution.

First, lower heat caps can help deal with this.
Second, it is a mech with 200m optimal range and stuck at 81kph.
Third, you should be more worried about SPLs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 February 2016 - 08:03 PM.

[DoctorDetroit]

Livewyr, on 08 February 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

All these people talking about how Cone of Fire will kill the game...

Yeah, like all those other games that died because of a Cone of Fire, like:




Hmm. Point to me a game that died due to the addition of a Cone of Fire?

Were those games released with cone of fire? Probably. Trust me as soon as people's shots start to miss because of your random number generator, the rage quitting will commence. Only a few devout forum-ites support this idea.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

no one, on 08 February 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

And the 6ppc stalker is an even worse 'Mech now, and has been replaced by the large laser stalker.

Which does different things than the 6 PPC Stalker, 60 PPFLD is very different from 54 points of damage across a second.

no one, on 08 February 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

LRM5s are positively useless because AMS doesn't scale in effectiveness against LRM volley size.

Very different problem that you are addressing here, because the reason AMS is so strong is because it has to be decent against massed LRMs to be worth carrying, not the it is worth carrying to begin with, but meh.

[Livewyr]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

None of that matters because Mechwarrior is, and should be different.

It's "different" in a bad way.

DoctorDetroit, on 08 February 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

Were those games released with cone of fire? Probably. Trust me as soon as people's shots start to miss because of your random number generator, the rage quitting will commence. Only a few devout forum-ites support this idea.

I remember a time before ECM made missiles useless... game survived ECM.
and 3PV.
and consumables.
and Ghost heat.

Your argument holds no water.

[EDIT: I'm reminded by a friend that a significant number of gameplay problems, such as the necessity for ghost heat, are a result of the pinpoint accuracy...]

Edited by Livewyr, 08 February 2016 - 08:09 PM.

[DoctorDetroit]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

I'm told of our tank that can hit another tank from 5 miles away while jumping over a sand dune at 80mph. But, an experienced gunship pilot has a different opinion about how those weapon systems actually perform in combat. See below. and read the rest of his posts, starting around page 7.

Oh so someone says he is experienced on the internet and we believe them now? My mistake for trusting all the validated and reviewed stories about modern weapons performances. I should of just listened to some guy on MWO forums. Seriously no offense, but its not like the guy gave many details of which weapons he actually had experience with.

[adamts01]

DoctorDetroit, on 08 February 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

Oh so someone says he is experienced on the internet and we believe them now? My mistake for trusting all the validated and reviewed stories about modern weapons performances. I should of just listened to some guy on MWO forums. Seriously no offense, but its not like the guy gave many details of which weapons he actually had experience with.

I understand what you're saying. I've chatted with him in private and I believe him. I'm a Marine and I tend to believe most people when they mention war. It's about the most ****** up thing to lie about.

[DoctorDetroit]

Livewyr, on 08 February 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

It's "different" in a bad way.



I remember a time before ECM made missiles useless... game survived ECM.
and 3PV.
and consumables.
and Ghost heat.

Your argument holds no water.

3rd person view... lol. Why did you just invalidate your credibility by the "well the game survived 3PV" nonsense.

[adamts01]

DoctorDetroit, on 08 February 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

3rd person view... lol. Why did you just invalidate your credibility by the "well the game survived 3PV" nonsense.

There was a TON of whining about it giving players an unfair advantage, being able to see over hills and stuff. It was the doomsday topic back in the day.

[Ratpoison]

Livewyr, on 08 February 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

It's "different" in a bad way.



I remember a time before ECM made missiles useless... game survived ECM.
and 3PV.
and consumables.
and Ghost heat.

Your argument holds no water.

[EDIT: I'm reminded by a friend that a significant number of gameplay problems, such as the necessity for ghost heat, are a result of the pinpoint accuracy...]

None of those things affected such a core part of the game as your aiming, so I'm afraid you're wrong. The location damage system that's essential to this game relies on convergence, so it's not a dice rolling crapfest where you never know what component you're actually going to hit. Do you REALLY think it will be fun to miss shots that are on a 5 second cooldown? It certainly wont be skill based.

[Ratpoison]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

There was a TON of whining about it giving players an unfair advantage, being able to see over hills and stuff. It was the doomsday topic back in the day.

That's because the forums are populated by the small portion of the game's most vocal population. The percentage of people actually whining about it was very small once it came out and we saw what it was.

[adamts01]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

Do you REALLY think it will be fun to miss shots that are on a 5 second cooldown? It certainly wont be skill based.

Part of the skill is maneuvering till you're within an acceptable range for your weapon, just like in real life. If you can't afford to miss, slow down and eliminate your inaccuracy. If you can't afford to slow down and can't afford to miss, you were out maneuvered, GG. Also, if people were so deathly afraid of any bit of chance we wouldn't see any UACs. It's all a calculated risk.

[DarthPeanut]

SQW, on 08 February 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

Target lock isn't magic. Radar signal isn't pinpoint accurate and the computer makes a best guess estimate of where the target is and tries to aim with the mechanical parts of the system. That's why the best AM system on an aircraft carrier throw out a wall of lead in the general direction instead of trying to aim directly for the missile.

On the defensive side, you can have jammers and other passive defense to scramble the signals or just moving at high speed to through off the mechanical component of the shooter's system as is the case in MW lore.

M1A1's accuracy is part war propaganda, part canned test scenario. Don't believe everything you hear. The accurate while moving spill is always against a stationary test targets. When the enemy is moving, it's far harder for the radar to determine its speed in order to make an accurate long distance prediction.

For example, it's easy to make a machine that can toss a basketball through the hoop at 200m because of low variables, even if you are moving. Having the hoop move at the same time at a random speed makes thing an order of magnitude harder.

Got it, all propaganda. The Abrams is not an aircraft carrier so I am not sure about that reference and it does not use only 'radar' to fire on a target.

Some basic reading on the Abrams would quickly tell you it uses many system for firing accuracy combined with a firing computer for calculating the data rapidly. Everything from precision gps data, laser range finding and targeting data, wind speed, vehicle speed, barometric pressure... hell it even factors in the bend of the gun and the Coriolis effect.

Of course it is not a perfect world in a static environment and the most certainly are human factors to be considered in that but yea I guess I am sticking with my propaganda. I have no reason to dismiss the great majority of proven factual data which back said 'propaganda'.

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

I'm told of our tank that can hit another tank from 5 miles away while jumping over a sand dune at 80mph. But, an experienced gunship pilot has a different opinion about how those weapon systems actually perform in combat. See below. and read the rest of his posts, starting around page 7.

Top speed of an Abrams is 45 mph and that is on a paved road.

At least google before you attempt to be dramatic.

Have a good evening.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 08 February 2016 - 08:41 PM.

[adamts01]

DarthPeanut, on 08 February 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

Top speed of an Abrams is 45 mph.

At least google before you attempt to be dramatic.

Have a good evening.

I confused the speed with 80kph. I sincerely apologize.

[Ratpoison]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 08:28 PM, said:

Part of the skill is maneuvering till you're within an acceptable range for your weapon, just like in real life. If you can't afford to miss, slow down and eliminate your inaccuracy. If you can't afford to slow down and can't afford to miss, you were out maneuvered, GG. Also, if people were so deathly afraid of any bit of chance we wouldn't see any UACs. It's all a calculated risk.

Each time you say "like in real life", it gets significantly harder to read your posts. Also, how is encouraging bad piloting(standing still) doing anything useful for the game? How is punishing mechs for making pushes going to stop all the new kiddies from hiding from the fight? It wont. You get a horrible shoulder mounted PPFLD camping meta, where everyone waits for everyone else to move since you can't effectively push any position due to CoF debuff, and all the newbies will hide until death every game, if they don't charge forward spraying randomized shots until they overheat. There's no "skill" in this idea, it's just rewarding and encouraging bad pilots.

[Kuritaclan]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

Now carry a 6-ton laser while running and see how straight you can hold the beam.

Rofl. If you really think that you need to stabilize 6t of equipment to make a laser-beam pointing on something you want you shouldn't talk in this thread.

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

I understand what you're saying. I've chatted with him in private and I believe him. I'm a Marine and I tend to believe most people when they mention war. It's about the most ****** up thing to lie about.

Which does not help at all. His experience with an 80s Apache (yes it got an update). Rocket launchers compared to SRMs equal yes. Comparing MG to ACs in this game is a no go. Cadence is a way of. Therefore you have to look at real tank weapons. And therefore it is Abrahams and so on. The targeting systems are something else than those for the Apache MG. Not taken into account the question of the accuracy of the L44 which is used in an Abrahms vs the newer L55s. And so on.

The only issue of convergence if there is one is AC and PPCs in Torsos converge on nearest distance - what would have problems to point barrels with "enough space" in the internals.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 08 February 2016 - 09:47 PM.

[Livewyr]

DoctorDetroit, on 08 February 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

3rd person view... lol. Why did you just invalidate your credibility by the "well the game survived 3PV" nonsense.

At the time, 3PV was the doom of the game... (as seems to be your position regarding a cone of fire.)

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

None of those things affected such a core part of the game as your aiming, so I'm afraid you're wrong. The location damage system that's essential to this game relies on convergence, so it's not a dice rolling crapfest where you never know what component you're actually going to hit. Do you REALLY think it will be fun to miss shots that are on a 5 second cooldown? It certainly wont be skill based.

1: Ohai Tort, long time no see.
2: I would argue that Ghost Heat affects the core part of the game.
3: There are so many games that work that way. (WoT, for one... WoWS for another...Warthunder for a 3rd)
4: The system he is proposing has player manipulated RNG limits.
Sit perfectly still in lower heat = Pretty much what we have now.
Start trying to be The Chosen One + Optimus Prime + The Human Torch and your aim is going to be off.

[1Grimbane]

Livewyr, on 08 February 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

Start trying to be The Chosen One + Optimus Prime + The Human Torch and your aim is going to be off.

you have found the secret to my playstyle SHHHHHH

[Ratpoison]

Livewyr, on 08 February 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

At the time, 3PV was the doom of the game... (as seems to be your position regarding a cone of fire.)



1: Ohai Tort, long time no see.
2: I would argue that Ghost Heat affects the core part of the game.
3: There are so many games that work that way. (WoT, for one... WoWS for another...Warthunder for a 3rd)
4: The system he is proposing has player manipulated RNG limits.
Sit perfectly still in lower heat = Pretty much what we have now.
Start trying to be The Chosen One + Optimus Prime + The Human Torch and your aim is going to be off.

People only thought 3PV was going to be the doom of the game before PGI released all the details. Once people saw that it put you at more of a disadvantage than anything, and PGI explained how it was important to helping new players understand the separation of legs and torso(something us MechWarrior fans tend to take for granted), the only people left shouting doom were the typical forum doomsayers.

Many competitive gamers, including myself and many others here, dislike the games you listed for exactly this reason, among others. It's not fun dealing with an RNG when you should be using skill, especially in a game where location damage is so critical. Contrary to what some of the slander people in here are slinging says, competitive players compete for personal enjoyment, and tend to care above all else for the health, balance, and competitive integrity of the games they play, as they are key to how they enjoy playing the game.

Making these elements dependent on player action only causes additional problems. If you think the number of hiding puggies is bad now, how do you think they'll respond when they learn that moving randomizes their aim, and stopping can take 2 full seconds or so? How are competitive teams going to respond when they learn that pushing gives their whole team an accuracy debuff against dug in enemies who get to keep their pinpoint? How are you going to keep light mechs from going under 5% of the queue in that environment? How are you going to counteract the horrible pinpoint camping meta that results, where shoulder mounted long range pinpoint is the only thing that makes sense, while short range and small arms are completely useless?

Every way I look at this, it only makes the problems it's trying to fix worse, while dampening the skill cap for no reason. It's a dangerous acceptance of mechanics from other shooters based on the fact that they were monetarily successful, without bothering to consider just how different it functions in an environment where you're a foot soldier who can stop and turn on a dime, as opposed to a lumbering war machine. I've probably read a hundred different ideas on it by now, and all I can conclude is that MWO is not a game that plays nice with CoF, period.

[MauttyKoray]

I much prefer the reticule shake/sway from movement idea I proposed. In lore pilots/mechs have a much harder time hitting their targets while moving and especially running, so you would use a sway/shake (like the JJ shake, but nowhere near as bad probably) to mimic the mech movement. This would specifically be aimed at the full tilt running and alpha mechs that are near constant in the game. It would require you to slow down for a better shot at distance, or even at close range to concentrate your fire effectively.

You can usually see the change in the animation itself between the 'walking' and 'running' speeds.

[Mystere]

Kuritaclan, on 08 February 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

Rofl. If you really think that you need to stabilize 6t of equipment to make a laser-beam pointing on something you want you shouldn't talk in this thread.

Those are some damned fine lightweight mirrors you are using to aim the extreme ultraviolet, x-ray, and gamma radiation produced by megawatt-level free-electron and gamma-ray lasers. I think you should talk to Raytheon and the US Navy for a job.

Edited by Mystere, 08 February 2016 - 09:58 PM.