1094 replies to this topic

[oldradagast]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

I really, really hate to agree with tortuous bit if it didn't take skill to do that then all the tryhards would be comp players. I don't have that twitch capability but I'm not going to say it isn't skill to be able to hold a 1.5 second ERLL burn on a running light's leg at 400m.

Holding the beam is not what is being discussed here - it's the "magic convergence fairy" that makes all that damage not only hit the mech, but hit a single infinitely small point on it. THAT is my problem - that people argue that the perfect convergence IS "skill," and somehow by removing it, "any useless noob" would magically be on the same level as a truly skilled player.

Long story short, if the cone of fire was added tomorrow, good players would still be better than poor players - the convergence has NOTHING to do with skill. Hell, I'd argue that a cone of fire INCREASES skill requirements, since a person can no longer rely on the crutch of having all the damage go to one spot regardless of any other factor and thus get lucky kills with it. If mechs took longer to kill - as they would with a Cone of Fire - real skill would benefit from such changes.

Perfect convergence is NOT skill, and quiet frankly, anyone who's afraid of losing their "meta-edge" if it went away really is no better than the "useless noobs" they like to berate.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 February 2016 - 06:50 PM.

[DoctorDetroit]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

Let's have a recap. The problem in question is automatic and instant pixel-perfect convergence. Did that jog your memory?

Your comment was "[color=#959595]Now carry a 6-ton laser while running and see how straight you can hold the beam"[/color]

You clearly missed a few parts of the discussion, including your own... which is not a good sign.

[adamts01]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

blah blah same old strawman blah blah

You mean like that?^^^^^^^ LOL

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

but you really should learn to discuss things like an adult.

[Ratpoison]

oldradagast, on 08 February 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

since a person can no longer rely on the crutch of having all the damage go to one spot regardless of any other factor and thus get lucky kills with it

Um, you mean AIMING???

You guys really are out of touch.

[Wolfways]

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Koniving, a long while back, introduced the perfect plan for defusing the whole pinpoint issue. The third-person camera's reticle bobs and sways with the natural movements of a 'Mech - simply introduce that reticle motion to the first-person cockpit view as well. Fire still goes exactly where it's aimed, as is only right and proper, but the aimpoint itself shifts with the motion of the machine - also right and proper. Players need to time their shots with the movements of their rides to hit precisely, and the motion of the reticle spreads laser damage naturally over the course of a shot. Clean, simple, does not invalidate HSR like randomized-cone-of-fire does, does not eliminate snipers from the game like randomized-cone-of-fire does, and is pretty much already in the system.

So much this.

[DoctorDetroit]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

I've had plenty of duals in private lobby with great players. I'd jump and twist and do everything I could to spread damage and I'll die with all fresh armor except my CT. Many people are that good. It's pretty insane.

Ya I know what you mean. I agree there is not much you can do against that kind of skill mismatch. However, I would not say "many people" are that good.

[Ratpoison]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 06:49 PM, said:

You mean like that?^^^^^^^ LOL

When the only point you make in your post is a flagrantly skewed misrepresentation of how competitive players play and think about the game, you don't deserve a serious response, you only deserve to be disregarded in the same manner.

So yes, "blah blah same old strawman blah blah". If you want more of a discussion, you have to talk like you deserve it.

[oldradagast]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Um, you mean AIMING???

You guys really are out of touch.

So, you're saying a slight cone of fire and the resulting small damage spread at long ranges would magically make you unable to hit a target? And, apparently would also somehow grant poor players the sudden ability to track fast moving targets, lead them properly, position better, work as a unit, and do all the other things in the game that, you know, require ACTUAL skill? Yes, that nutty "no skill" fantasy land you're proposing would be terrible, if were not for the fact it has nothing to do with reality.

Convergence is not skill; if you think it is, or that removing it would somehow "make the game require less skill," than you are totally out of touch and have no idea what skill is.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 February 2016 - 07:03 PM.

[SQW]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

blah blah same old strawman blah blah

Maybe someone would listen to you if you actually knew anything about the opposing viewpoints.

"I want to land every shot from my laser boat on that 1 pixel."

That IS the end result of your pov right? Or would you care to explain to us what's your definition of skill is?

What other shooting games these days still cling to hit scan weapons AND claim it's skill based? Was introduction of recoil in shooters a slap in the face to leet players? Was introduction of scope sway in sniper games an attempt to make it noob friendly?

Face it. hit-scan laser is just easy mode. Why is taking away laser boat's main advantage a skill downgrade huh? The only reason you can kill as fast as you do now is because the game gives you massive training wheels in aiming.

[Mystere]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

Do you know how to talk without strawmen?

Strawmen? You're the one who started talking about design, and implicitly "good design".

[Ratpoison]

SQW, on 08 February 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

"I want to land every shot from my laser boat on that 1 pixel."

That IS the end result of your pov right? Or would you care to explain to us what's your definition of skill is?

What other shooting games these days still cling to hit scan weapons AND claim it's skill based? Was introduction of recoil in shooters a slap in the face to leet players? Was introduction of scope sway in sniper games an attempt to make it noob friendly?

Face it. hit-scan laser is just easy mode. Why is taking away laser boat's main advantage a skill downgrade huh? The only reason you can kill as fast as you do now is because the game gives you massive training wheels in aiming.

Noted that you only talked about on foot shooters, where you can stop on a dime and use hand held weapons, because it invalidates everything else you said. You're comparing this game, where you have to shoot an enemy dozens of times to kill with weapons that can only fire every 4-5 seconds and are restricted by heat, to games where you have to shoot an enemy 2-3 times with a weapon that fires 10-15 rounds per second. Missing a couple rounds to CoF in typical shooters, not a big deal. Landing a couple shots on the enemy's arm instead of the side torso due to CoF, you're pretty much dead with nothing gained.

It baffles me that people still accept this logic.

[oldradagast]

SQW, on 08 February 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

"I want to land every shot from my laser boat on that 1 pixel."

That IS the end result of your pov right? Or would you care to explain to us what's your definition of skill is?

What other shooting games these days still cling to hit scan weapons AND claim it's skill based? Was introduction of recoil in shooters a slap in the face to leet players? Was introduction of scope sway in sniper games an attempt to make it noob friendly?

Face it. hit-scan laser is just easy mode. Why is taking away laser boat's main advantage a skill downgrade huh? The only reason you can kill as fast as you do now is because the game gives you massive training wheels in aiming.

Defenders of the current idiocy have no idea what skill actually is. Moving, positioning, communicating, rolling damage - all of those are skill. Leading a target is skill, as is knowing where to shoot and when to shoot - or when not to shoot. But convergence IS NOT SKILL.

They don't get it - everyone will be under the same new rules that result in a bit of damage spread or the occasional miss at long ranges. That's it. That isn't going to make a horrible player magically good, nor is going to magically make good players suddenly unable to lead a target or aim properly. Even if we proposed some insane cone of fire where 10% of all shots would miss for no reason at all ranges, SKILLED players would STILL win over "scrubs" just as often as they win now because everyone is under the same rules and perfect convergence - or lack of it - is NOT an actual skill in this game.

No, what we're hearing is the bleating of the lowest try-hards on the totem pole who know damn well that the only thing separately them from the scrubs they so despise is that their mech has a bunch more lasers and their twitch reflexes are still a hair faster. And that's it - they don't really have much more real skill than the people they so hate, and they fear that a Cone of Fire would reveal that fact.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 February 2016 - 07:13 PM.

[Ratpoison]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

Strawmen? You're the one who started talking about design, and implicitly "good design".

Are you messing with me or something? The topic is pretty clearly about improving the game's design. The fact that you don't want to talk about that, and instead would rather spin stories of how all the comp players are secretly pushing convergence so they can stay good, really says a lot about you.

[SQW]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

Strawmen? You're the one who started talking about design, and implicitly "good design".

He doesn't. He's been lambasting COF for not being skilled based throughout the thread but never once explain why not being able to hit a target with computer assisted pinpoint accuracy a skill nerf. He claims the current hit scan weapons are more competitive for those who can aim...

[Wolfways]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Except for the equally likely situation where your aim was off but RNG decided to bless you with a perfect shot to the CT. It doesn't raise the skill cap, it just shrinks a gap between those who can hit the CT 90% of the time and those who hit somewhere on the torso 90% of the time.

That's a good thing. If players are more equal then the MM would be faster at finding teams for matches because more players would be eligible for that match.

[oldradagast]

SQW, on 08 February 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

He doesn't. He's been lambasting COF for not being skilled based throughout the thread but never once explain why not being able to hit a target with computer assisted pinpoint accuracy a skill nerf. He claims the current hit scan weapons are more competitive for those who can aim...

Convergence is not a skill. If everyone is playing by the same minor rules changes, as proposed, your competitiveness will NOT CHANGE under the new system. Heck, the slight reduction in lucky kills would actually favor the skilled player in the long-run since the longer you live, the more skill matters. If the slight reduction in long-range damage dealt and perfect accuracy you would suffer under a cone of fire knocks you from your vaunted position of "skilled player," you were never skilled to begin with.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 February 2016 - 07:17 PM.

[adamts01]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

Landing a couple shots on the enemy's arm instead of the side torso due to CoF, you're pretty much dead with nothing gained.

Except you wouldn't be dead because his shots would spread too..... Or his shots didn't spread because he slowed down to take a better shot, better piloting on his part so he won.

It comes down to opinion on which is a better mechanic, but if both sides have the same opportunity, more skill still wins.

[DarthPeanut]

Since I keep seeing simulation thrown around. I cannot help but think if we are realistically talking about what it would be like to simulate these future prestigious war machines of awesome (no pun intended) power and destruction they would most certainly be more or less pinpoint accurate when firing.

Lets simply look at a current day Abrams tank, which would be an artifact by comparison, which can shoot precisely while on the move at speeds thanks to its firing control system and stabilized gun they have been using for some time now.

Something like 1000 years later and that is somehow lost on more advanced future generation of war machines. Did they somehow overlook the ancient technology of the past or forget the one of the most basic function of using beam or projectile weapons in combat... the ability to hit a target accurately with them.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 08 February 2016 - 07:27 PM.

[no one]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

PGI would still be clueless as to what to do since you don't have a unified idea of the game. Nothing would change at all, aside from the huge number of players taking their business elsewhere, away from the casualized shooting game that fulfills no one's dreams.

Of course the player-base isn't a hive mind. There are good and bad ideas. You're assuming that either this absolves PGI of improving the game or that they aren't competent to separate good and bad ideas. Cone of fire isn't a good idea, but neither is instant perfect convergence ultimately the best idea.

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Um, you mean AIMING???

You guys really are out of touch.

You are missing the point of how pinpoint convergence effects balance by allowing damage from an alpha strike to unfailingly hit the same section of a 'Mech at the same time. Ghost heat was implemented precisely because this was an issue, and just because it's been toned down doesn't mean it's no longer something that effects balance.





And again, I don't think random cones of fire are a good way to solve convergence based balance issues for reasons I've stated.

Edited by no one, 08 February 2016 - 07:25 PM.

[oldradagast]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

Except you wouldn't be dead because his shots would spread too..... Or his shots didn't spread because he slowed down to take a better shot, better piloting on his part so he won.

It comes down to opinion on which is a better mechanic, but if both sides have the same opportunity, more skill still wins.

Exactly. The longer a player lives, the more his skill becomes evident, and those who hate the cone of fire proposal seem to be living in some crazy world where only they have a cone of fire while everyone else still has perfect convergence.