1094 replies to this topic

[Ratpoison]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

What it comes down to is the simulator crowd vs the e-sports crowd. I'd be perfectly happy with a realistic simulator and letting the Counterstrike kids take their saved lunch money somewhere else. I'm sure myself and the actual Mechwarrior fans would more than make up for their financial contribution if this became the massive simulator everyone was promised during funding.

What you don't understand is that it will never happen. You see, all of you lore pushers don't even notice that you all have completely different ideas about how things should be done. You'd still argue and come up with more bandaid fixes to the "problems" you see in the game that the other lore pushers got added. PGI would still be clueless as to what to do since you don't have a unified idea of the game. Nothing would change at all, aside from the huge number of players taking their business elsewhere, away from the casualized shooting game that fulfills no one's dreams.

[Mystere]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

LoL is competitive, Dota is competitive, Starcraft is competitive..... Please stop calling MWO competitive. Even if we disagree on COF, stop pretending this game is competitive.

What is hilarious is that people actually believe that MWO is a "competitive" game when in the grand scheme of things it is not even a blip on the radar of the competitive gaming scene.

[SQW]

IronClaws, on 08 February 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

Hell NO! People keep advocating this Call Of Duty style RNG because they get so butthurt by the fact that some people can aim better than others (excluding cheaters, I agree that cheaters are bad for the game), please keep aiming skill based.

I'm one of those with great aim and I want COF so the LESS skilled puppy warriors can't just cram 10 lasers in a mech and go alpha-kill-or-heat-shutdown on everyone else.

Your aiming 'skillz' is simply relying on the game giving you pinpoint accuracy boost. In FPS perspective, you've effectively been using a machine gun with sniper rifle accuracy. Please realize your supposedly aiming skill comes with a MASSIVE crutch - you just can't see you are riding around with training wheels.

If you can land every shot on target with cof/variation, that's REAL skill. If you can land every shot with hit scan weapon...not something you should brag about. That's why headshot in CS is considered a skill and nailing someone from across the map with a pistol in Duke Nukem is just arcade fun.

[Hotthedd]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

Now carry a 6-ton laser while running and see how straight you can hold the beam.

Better yet, just take 6 laser pointers and run or jump around and see how well you can make them all converge on one spot.

[no one]

Sorry, OP. It looks like you put serious effort into this and I agree that high alpha pinpoint convergence causes balance problems, is but there's also no good reason to use a randomized cone of fire over a simple extreme range convergence.

Besides how bloody silly it would look to have multiple lasers fired from one torso section strike on opposite sides of a cone of fire, besides how annoying it would be to miss a target completely because of RNG shot placement, besides how much more invulnerable this would make lights, what you're suggesting would almost certainly require MORE coding and server work than a simple 'weapons fire in parallel' or delayed convergence mechanic.

From another of my posts on the subject:

Spoiler

Yes, I was also talking about delayed convergence. I was making the point that the game already does what the "we can't do non instant convergence" argument hinges on the game not being able to do. Right now we have a system where depth of convergence is determined by what's under your reticule at the moment you fire, right? HSR compensates for lag by interpreting the ms delay between the server and the player's client to determine what the player was aiming at. Now, for sake of this argument let's assume that's functioning correctly. If I fire slightly over the head of a target into the infinite distance my weapons can and do connect with a target at separate points. So if you edited the line of code that takes reticule range as input and replaced it with an integer for 3000 meters then your weapons would effectively fire without convergence, and HSR would not be effected, correct? If you instead took that mouse input range and replaced it with a simple distance-to-target then your weapons would converge to a point at distance to target perfectly, regardless of what was actually under your reticule. Of course to do a gradual convergence you need your weapons focus to start at the extreme range value, and then gradually reduce that value to distance to target. So you need a function that can, after a value time T, return the point of convergence D. Since the target is probably moving and the precision of convergence over the period of convergence isn't important, we can graduate D by say, 100 meters? And then once your convergence point's within 100 meters of range to target you can just use that.

So yes, convergence is a problem, no this isn't the best solution. Besides which, they really need to do a solid low cap, high dissipation heat system first. That would solve a number of the convergence issues by itself.

[oldradagast]

Asrrin, on 08 February 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

You introduce cone of fire and you can kiss a large number of players, as well as competitive play, goodbye. A game should never punish a player for having good aim. That is all.

What "competitive scene?" You mean the desolate wasteland of CW, where laser vomit mechs shoot each other to death on the rare occasions they can find enough players to put together a match? There are probably more competitive Candyland players in the world than MWO players.

And, quite frankly, why should I care what they think? Their goals have zero to do with having a fun game and everything to do with epeen-stroking. Heck, they are the same clowns on this forum who trumpet about how the game shouldn't be "fun" because "it's real war!" or some idiocy. They are tiny fraction of the game's population, and they've all ready crapped all over their playground - community warfare - so they have no credibility left at this point.

Perfect, instant convergence is the problem, and it needs to be fixed, not swept under the rug or patched over with sloppy mechanics.

[Ratpoison]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

What is hilarious is that people actually believe that MWO is a "competitive" game when in the grand scheme of things it is not even a blip on the radar of the competitive gaming scene.

And what's even more hilarious is all the casual Battletech nerds around here that don't understand how a game being competitive is related to its design and not its sales figure.

[1Grimbane]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

What is hilarious is that people actually believe that MWO is a "competitive" game when in the grand scheme of things it is not even a blip on the radar of the competitive gaming scene.

something doesn't have to be on any "scene" to be what it is. all that means is that it's not that popular

[adamts01]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

What you don't understand is that it will never happen. You see, all of you lore pushers don't even notice that you all have completely different ideas about how things should be done. You'd still argue and come up with more bandaid fixes to the "problems" you see in the game that the other lore pushers got added. PGI would still be clueless as to what to do since you don't have a unified idea of the game. Nothing would change at all, aside from the huge number of players taking their business elsewhere, away from the casualized shooting game that fulfills no one's dreams.

Things are changing slowly for the better. We got cockpit shake while using jumpjets for instance. The comp crowd hated that was was going to leave the game because it took all the skill out of poptarting when your shot would fly off in a random direction. We got Polar, the most un-arena map possible. It's a crappy band-aid, but we got ghost heat to cripple the 1 shot 9PPC Dires and quadPPC Stalkers.

[oldradagast]

IronClaws, on 08 February 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

Hell NO! People keep advocating this Call Of Duty style RNG because they get so butthurt by the fact that some people can aim better than others (excluding cheaters, I agree that cheaters are bad for the game), please keep aiming skill based.

Lol - what "skill?" The "skill" of putting a billion points of damage on a single pixel instantly? Is that part of the amazing "skill" and "competitive play" we're talking about here? That's not skill - that's simply twitch reflexes and remembering to boat all those weapons the internet told you to boat. Good lord.. you get about the same level of "skill" out of drag and dropping a file in Windows - look, I have to press a mouse button and hold it! I'm leet!

No, the "skillz" crowd is horrified that they won't be able to easily 1-shot "stupid noobs" with their "skill" mechs anymore. Heavens, some of my laser vomit might splash onto an adjacent component! Oh, no - one of my many Gauss rounds at stupid long range missed because my aim wasn't perfect! Oh, the horror!

If your game play is so bad that you're relying on perfect convergence to get wins, than you're not part of the "skillz" crowd you aspire to represent.

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

And what's even more hilarious is all the casual Battletech nerds around here that don't understand how a game being competitive is related to its design and not its sales figure.

No, but it is related to the number of competitive players in the game. See also desolate wasteland of CW and the generally low population numbers on a grand scale.

[Ratpoison]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

Things are changing slowly for the better. We got cockpit shake while using jumpjets for instance. The comp crowd hated that was was going to leave the game because it took all the skill out of poptarting when your shot would fly off in a random direction. We got Polar, the most un-arena map possible. It's a crappy band-aid, but we got ghost heat to cripple the 1 shot 9PPC Dires and quadPPC Stalkers.

Can't say I've ever met someone in the comp crowd who misses poptarting, so I guess you got your facts out of line. It was easily the most boring meta we've had, and very similar to what CoF would do to this game now, only with less poptarting and more shoulder fire peek.

oldradagast, on 08 February 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

Lol - what "skill?" The "skill" of putting a billion points of damage on a single pixel instantly? Is that part of the amazing "skill" and "competitive play" we're talking about here? That's not skill - that's simply twitch reflexes and remembering to boat all those weapons the internet told you to boat. Good lord.. you get about the same level of "skill" out of drag and dropping a file in Windows - look, I have to press a mouse button and hold it! I'm leet!

No, the "skillz" crowd is horrified that they won't be able to easily 1-shot "stupid noobs" with their "skill" mechs anymore. Heavens, some of my laser vomit might splash onto an adjacent component! Oh, no - one of my many Gauss rounds at stupid long range missed because my aim wasn't perfect! Oh, the horror!

If your game play is so bad that you're relying on perfect convergence to get wins, than you're not part of the "skillz" crowd you aspire to represent.



No, but it is related to the number of competitive players in the game. See also desolate wasteland of CW and the generally low population numbers on a grand scale.

Incorrect, but I certainly don't expect you of all people to understand what a competitive scene is, how its design functions, and why others enjoy it.

[SQW]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

Things are changing slowly for the better. We got cockpit shake while using jumpjets for instance. The comp crowd hated that was was going to leave the game because it took all the skill out of poptarting when your shot would fly off in a random direction. We got Polar, the most un-arena map possible. It's a crappy band-aid, but we got ghost heat to cripple the 1 shot 9PPC Dires and quadPPC Stalkers.

That's right. Just look at Hawken when you want a true arena mech game. Battletech is Battletech because it's not anime mecha with lightning reflex and power slides. Polar is hands down the best map for true MWO experience yet the twitch shooters all complain they can't find the target within 10 sec in the middle like every other maps or there are no mountain of covers for them to inch within 100m of their target in a straight line..

It's ironic all the LEET pilots whine to the high heaven every time a mechanic is implemented to slow down TTK. They want their high dmg alphas. They want their pinpoint shots. They want buffs on their weapon of choice and nerf the rest. They want to live in the illusion their K/D isn't from gaming an accuracy mechanic that FPS has retired when a mod called Counter Strike was made in the 00s.

[adamts01]

oldradagast, on 08 February 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

Lol - what "skill?" The "skill" of putting a billion points of damage on a single pixel instantly? Is that part of the amazing "skill" and "competitive play" we're talking about here?

I really, really hate to agree with tortuous bit if it didn't take skill to do that then all the tryhards would be comp players. I don't have that twitch capability but I'm not going to say it isn't skill to be able to hold a 1.5 second ERLL burn on a running light's leg at 400m.

[Ratpoison]

SQW, on 08 February 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

That's right. Just look at Hawken when you want a true arena mech game. Battletech is Battletech because it's not anime mecha with lightning reflex and power slides. Polar is hands down the best map for true MWO experience yet the twitch shooters all complain they can't find the target within 10 sec in the middle like every other maps or there are no mountain of covers for them to inch within 100m of their target in a straight line..

It's ironic all the LEET pilots whine to the high heaven every time a mechanic is implemented to slow down TTK. They want their high dmg alphas. They want their pinpoint shots. They want buffs on their weapon of choice and nerf the rest. They want to live in the illusion their K/D isn't from gaming an accuracy mechanic that FPS has retired when a mod called Counter Strike was made in the 00s.

blah blah same old strawman blah blah

Maybe someone would listen to you if you actually knew anything about the opposing viewpoints.

[Mystere]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

And what's even more hilarious is all the casual Battletech nerds around here that don't understand how a game being competitive is related to its design and not its sales figure.

Oh! Are you referring to things like Ghost Heat, ineffective long-range missiles, and automatic and instant pixel-perfect convergence? Those designs?

1Grimbane, on 08 February 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

something doesn't have to be on any "scene" to be what it is. all that means is that it's not that popular

See above.

Edited by Mystere, 08 February 2016 - 06:41 PM.

[DoctorDetroit]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

Now carry a 6-ton laser while running and see how straight you can hold the beam.

Can you fire straight while running in MWO? I doubt it. I am serious go try and shoot straight while running a mech on some rough terrain. My point is that a laser shoots where you aim it. Your mech already bounces around as you move over anything but the most flat terrain. Why add a random number generator to fix a problem that doesn't even exist.

[Mystere]

DoctorDetroit, on 08 February 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

Can you fire straight while running in MWO? I doubt it. I am serious go try and shoot straight while running a mech on some rough terrain. My point is that a laser shoots where you aim it. Your mech already bounces around as you move over anything but the most flat terrain. Why add a random number generator to fix a problem that doesn't even exist.

Let's have a recap. The problem in question is automatic and instant pixel-perfect convergence. Did that jog your memory?

[adamts01]

SQW, on 08 February 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

It's ironic all the LEET pilots whine to the high heaven every time a mechanic is implemented to slow down TTK. They want their high dmg alphas. They want their pinpoint shots. They want buffs on their weapon of choice and nerf the rest. They want to live in the illusion their K/D isn't from gaming an accuracy mechanic that FPS has retired when a mod called Counter Strike was made in the 00s.

I'm not a comp player by any measure, but I've drop with plenty of those guys and they'd adapt to whatever was thrown at them. If tomorrow we had stock mech mode with COF and a halved heat scale they'd still be the best. I really think it's the wannabees that cry about nerfing the OP mech of the month and other proposed changes like that. I don't think they're the bad guys in this game at all.

[Ratpoison]

Mystere, on 08 February 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Oh! Are you referring to things like Ghost Heat, ineffective long-range missiles, and automatic and instant pixel-perfect convergence? Those designs?

Do you know how to talk without strawmen? I know you don't have a real point and you have to grab for whatever "problem" you ignorantly think counts as a shred of evidence for your point, but you really should learn to discuss things like an adult. I really shouldn't bother with these topics any more, PGI obviously isn't going to listen to a bunch of forum whiners who don't understand the purpose or design of competitive games on even a basic level.

[adamts01]

DoctorDetroit, on 08 February 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

Can you fire straight while running in MWO? I doubt it.

I've had plenty of duals in private lobby with great players. I'd jump and twist and do everything I could to spread damage and I'll die with all fresh armor except my CT. Many people are that good. It's pretty insane.