1094 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

The sway isn't send it off to a random corner, the weapons still go to the center of the crosshair. It's just that by moving, your mech begins to sway, which means the crosshair begins to sway left to right and up to down some. The faster you go, the more it sways.

It's actually in the 3PV mode, your crosshair sways as you run, and the faster you run, the more vigorous it sways.

In my (admittedly, low quality) video here, you can see the difference in the snow that the reticle sway makes with the laser lines, like it's almost writing a line of cursive 'e's in the snow.

Linky Linky

Fair enough, as long as it's a minimum amount. I still want some COF though.

[GrimRiver]

DoctorDetroit, on 08 February 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

Realistic.... nope, try again. If you shoot a gun, and especially a LASER it goes straight!

"Gun" if you're talking about bullets then they do not go straight never did, they arch and curve due to gravity and wind.

Lasers do go straight but the platform from which they are fired from do not, meaning they hit last spot they were aimed at(same as bullets) if it was a pulse but a continuous laser will continue to hit that same spot it's aimed at.

[DoctorDetroit]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

This has been beaten to absolute death on this thread already. Yes, the gun still shoots straight, but the faster you move, the harder it is to hit the same target with the same accuracy. That's what COF is supposed to simulate. I, as well as many others, think huge pinpoint alphas are a problem. This isn't just another realistic touch, but a counter to those huge pinpoint alphas.

It is very hard to hit targets pinpoint while on the move and regularly torso twisting. So, I wouldn't include such a skill nerf as cone of fire to fix an issue that only a handful players can actually accomplish. If you are getting pin point insta killed alot, it is because you are standing still.

[adamts01]

Asrrin, on 08 February 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

You introduce cone of fire and you can kiss a large number of players, as well as competitive play, goodbye. A game should never punish a player for having good aim. That is all.

VARIABLE COF. Everyone can still have their perfect pinpoint, as long as they aren't running and don't alpha all their weapons at once. It's just another skill that's required. Keyword "skill." The comp crowd will excel at this, they adapt to everything, that's why they're so good.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

Fair enough, as long as it's a minimum amount. I still want some COF though.

I could compromise on some of both, but if we went full WoT or MAAAS CoF, I'd uninstall and never look back.

And I think a lot of players here feel the same way, or we'd still be playing WoT.

[Ratpoison]

No luck rolls modifying my aim, thanks. I'll go play D&D if I want to roll for accuracy.

Weapon fire rates are far too low and time to kill is far too high for that kind of randomizing to be acceptable. CoF is accepted in many FPS games because you're firing 10-15 rounds a second and only have to land 3 to kill. You want to make my 5 second CD Gauss miss its mark at random when I'm trying to have a decent fight? No. Stop trying to ruin this game. Into the dumpster with this idea, along with all the other awful CoF posts.

[wanderer]

Quote

Or maybe you could move around a bit possibly torso twist.

Amusingly enough, you can always hit CT. It just looks rude.



Shoot the enemy between the legs. CT. Can't twist it away, front or back.

Pew pew to the family jewels FTW.

[Bishop Steiner]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

A CoF is random. It's simply a limiter along the x and y axes for a field of data points, and are them programmatically selected by a coded RNG function.

and within that 2-4 MOA so is the pattern one gets from your M16A2. Also, amazingly, elite rifleman running across broken battlefield shockingly spread their shots over a larger than 4 inch area.

And yes, even mounted mechanized weapons have the same issues.

In MWO we have the equivalent of an M1A1 landing every shot on a dinner plate at flank speed, over rough terrain at 1000 meters. As my own 20 years a tank crew sergeant brother in law says, in those conditions, Minute of Turret is great, but reality is that it's still accurate minute of tank.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

wanderer, on 08 February 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Amusingly enough, you can always hit CT. It just looks rude.



Shoot the enemy between the legs. CT. Can't twist it away, front or back.

Pew pew to the family jewels FTW.

Easiest way to take down a Stalker

[adamts01]

DoctorDetroit, on 08 February 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

It is very hard to hit targets pinpoint while on the move and regularly torso twisting. So, I wouldn't include such a skill nerf as cone of fire to fix an issue that only a handful players can actually accomplish. If you are getting pin point insta killed alot, it is because you are standing still.

I'm not a comp player, and am still normally one of the sharks swimming around. I do very well killing seals with my alpha boats, that doesn't mean I wouldn't rather have things differently.

[1453 R]

wanderer, on 08 February 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Amusingly enough, you can always hit CT. It just looks rude.



Shoot the enemy between the legs. CT. Can't twist it away, front or back.

Pew pew to the family jewels FTW.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why you attack at an angle and twist to aim. Put those thighs between enemy fire and your precious lineage.

[Ratpoison]

With the big tournament coming, PGI definitely has no incentive to put in a nerf on skill like CoF inherently does, and comp teams will never have it, so I'm not too worried about any CoF garbage even being considered.

[adamts01]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

No luck rolls modifying my aim, thanks. I'll go play D&D if I want to roll for accuracy.

Weapon fire rates are far too low and time to kill is far too high for that kind of randomizing to be acceptable. CoF is accepted in many FPS games because you're firing 10-15 rounds a second and only have to land 3 to kill. You want to make my 5 second CD Gauss miss its mark at random when I'm trying to have a decent fight? No. Stop trying to ruin this game. Into the dumpster with this idea, along with all the other awful CoF posts.

You can still have your pinpoint shot, as long as you slow down to take it, just like in real life. If you're in a brawl, a small COF won't really matter, if you need to take a long shot, slow down and make it count.

[AssaultPig]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

That's why you slow down to reduce the COF and make your shot count. It's less twitchy and more of a simulator than what we currently have. And within 200 m you'd still hit a single component anyway, so brawling wouldn't be effected.

so if it wouldn't affect brawling and would only really matter at range (where mechs are often substantially stationary anyway) what's the purpose of it?

[Ratpoison]

adamts01, on 08 February 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

You can still have your pinpoint shot, as long as you slow down to take it, just like in real life. If you're in a brawl, a small COF won't really matter, if you need to take a long shot, slow down and make it count.

This is a competitive game, and therefore balanced, skill based game play trumps any "real life" excuse to add CoF. Sorry. Slowing down to take accurate shots is acceptable in foot soldier FPS games like CS:GO, but when driving dozens of tons of death, you don't get to stop as you please. Punish movement and the meta responds by camping.

[DoctorDetroit]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 February 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

and within that 2-4 MOA so is the pattern one gets from your M16A2. Also, amazingly, elite rifleman running across broken battlefield shockingly spread their shots over a larger than 4 inch area.

And yes, even mounted mechanized weapons have the same issues.

In MWO we have the equivalent of an M1A1 landing every shot on a dinner plate at flank speed, over rough terrain at 1000 meters. As my own 20 years a tank crew sergeant brother in law says, in those conditions, Minute of Turret is great, but reality is that it's still accurate minute of tank.

No we do not. Who is making these shots while running on rough terrain? Show me a video please! You guys are completely fabricating this idea of shooting pinpoint on the run.

[wanderer]

Then the game isn't skill-based. It's "who can put the biggest number on the pixel", with the majority of the weapons are useless for the purposes of skilled play (as they fail to do so, such as missiles, half the ballistics, etc.).

You've just said the game is "competitive" and yet half the game's weapon systems fail to be useful in competition. Which is it?

[adamts01]

DoctorDetroit, on 08 February 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

No we do not. Who is making these shots while running on rough terrain? Show me a video please! You guys are completely fabricating this idea of shooting pinpoint on the run.

Pick any popular comp player and YouTube them. I won't stroke their e-peen by naming any.

AssaultPig, on 08 February 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

so if it wouldn't affect brawling and would only really matter at range (where mechs are often substantially stationary anyway) what's the purpose of it?

A realistic mechanic to make this game a little less twitchy and a little more like a simulator.

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2016 - 05:27 PM, said:

This is a competitive game, and therefore balanced, skill based game play trumps any "real life" excuse to add CoF. Sorry. Slowing down to take accurate shots is acceptable in foot soldier FPS games like CS:GO, but when driving dozens of tons of death, you don't get to stop as you please. Punish movement and the meta responds by camping.

I think the peek-a-boo meta is lame as ****. This would just slow it down a little. As far as camping, sitting still and hiding doesn't win matches and never will. This isn't that big a penalty as to affect brawling, mid/short range combat would see a rise, which is arguably more fun than whack-a-mech.

wanderer, on 08 February 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

Then the game isn't skill-based. It's "who can put the biggest number on the pixel", with the majority of the weapons are useless for the purposes of skilled play (as they fail to do so, such as missiles, half the ballistics, etc.).

To be fair, putting all those lasers on a pixel is a skill, one that I'll never have, but it's still a skill.

But yeah, anyone who thinks this game has a decent competitive scene comparable to other competitive games is definitely on an island.

Edited by adamts01, 08 February 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[DarthPeanut]

Appreciate that you took the time to make the pictures to explain your point in detail... mark me as another in the 'against any COF mechanic' column.

This is just more overly complicated mechanics in a game of already over complicated mechanics, one with a large skill gap as it is already.

None the less, something like the idea I cannot accurately hit what I am aiming at because of heat scale for instance (while maintaining the ghost heat mechanic nonsense) is ridiculous and makes no sense. It is just so arbitrary, although I realize you did it looking for way to attach additional modifiers to the COF mechanic. Still not getting it and most people will not intuitively understand it.

It really looks like an over conceived attempt to add a normalizing factor to players aim and motor control. I dislike attempts to replacing skill with RNG. In reality it probably will do just the opposite and widen what is already a large skill gap between the top and bottom player base who are still working on improving in the current games mechanics. It will do it while pushing people out of the game because RNG is downright frustrating as hell and quite honestly better games exist to subject yourself to for enjoyment once you reach a certain level of RNG bloat and endless modifiers.

Time to kill in this game seems like it is a good place right now and balance is not that far off imo. Some changes (gradual) could be made to tighten it up more but COF is not one I would hope is considered.

When I get my torso opened up in 1-2 shots from an enemy who has decent aim I don't think OMG we need RNG! Never once crossed my mind actually. What I did think about was what I did wrong or need to do better next time... did I position poorly, was I standing still exposing to a heavy/ assault mech, did I face tanking an alpha instead of twisting because I wanted one more shot on an enemy, did I peek a corner against a firing line with a UAV above me, etc.

You have to also consider the MM at some point when you talk about balance and how people are being put together in a match. I personally think (and I think anyone who plays often would agree) it could be improved a number of ways so that the skill gap is smaller in a given match. Something like more tiers and additional consideration for ranking in those tiers but that is a whole other thread.

If I need to explain further you already have your mind made up. That is my 2 cents on the topic.


ETA: I can imagine trying to explain this to a new player coming into this game, especially when it takes a massive post like the OP with dozens of examples to preview the basics of it to existing players.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 08 February 2016 - 06:10 PM.

[Ratpoison]

wanderer, on 08 February 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

Then the game isn't skill-based. It's "who can put the biggest number on the pixel", with the majority of the weapons are useless for the purposes of skilled play (as they fail to do so, such as missiles, half the ballistics, etc.).

You've just said the game is "competitive" and yet half the game's weapon systems fail to be useful in competition. Which is it?

Nice strawman but gameplay balance is obviously a different issue entirely. CoF is a lowering of the skill cap, where the randomness of your shots determines who wins a duel rather than piloting and aiming skill. I'm speaking for a significant number of players when I say that I'll uninstall the moment any CoF is added to the game.