1094 replies to this topic

[Ratpoison]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

I would of course have to accept that TTK would be longer and I couldn't just alpha everybody to death

Unless RNGesus smiles upon you, then you can.

Better hope he's not smiling on the enemy when money starts being on the line...

[Hotthedd]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Unless RNGesus smiles upon you, then you can.

Better hope he's not smiling on the enemy when money starts being on the line...

Except for the fact that it isn't random, the shots WILL land within the reticle. And if the enemy is better than me, there is always the next match.

[Mystere]

Dino Might, on 10 February 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

If you condemn the idea immediately without understanding it ...

I think that is the point right there. They just do not understand.

The OP's proposal would lower the skill cap? Hilarious.

[FupDup]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Except for the fact that it isn't random, the shots WILL land within the reticle.

An unknown location within the reticule, that is.

Seriously though, ice cream cones of fire aren't the only possible alternative to convergence under the sun.

[Ratpoison]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Except for the fact that it isn't random, the shots WILL land within the reticle. And if the enemy is better than me, there is always the next match.

Oh yeah, I'm sure the losing teams of the upcoming $100,000 tournament will be satisfied with that answer when RNG screws them.

[TexAce]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Oh yeah, I'm sure the losing teams of the upcoming $100,000 tournament will be satisfied with that answer when RNG screws them.

As other games with CoF or any other form of RNG don't have any tournaments?

What if someone drops an Arty and kills 3 guys by being extremely lucky? Is this any different?

Edited by TexAce, 10 February 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Oh yeah, I'm sure the losing teams of the upcoming $100,000 tournament will be satisfied with that answer when RNG screws them.

Dude wake up, every game ever uses RNG/COF or some deviation. Tourney worthy players learn to adapt to the system, learn the limitations, adapt strategies, tactics and teamplay to over come any kind of RNG issues. The teams bitching cuz RNG screwed them, they either are in the "Tomato" fields with all the other baddies, or they are the tourney teams wiped out in the preseasons....

I mean, honestly, list 5 FPS style games or hell, go beyond, list me 5 games period that do NOT use a CoF/RNG or some form of deviation. I honestly cant think of 1 game that does not have some sort of mitigating factor to keep people from doing exactly what this game does.

I mean, i think WoT took the RNG way to far, but every game ever has a CoF/RNG or some other. Sooo, yeah,

[Mystere]

TexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

With a gaussian distribution even in the first picture 50-70% of shots would go CT. But you dont get that right?
And this is while walking, with no equipment whatsoever to aid pinpointing and with heat.

Tortuous does not seem to know what a gaussian distribution is and that your actions in-game (i.e. movement, heat accumulation, firing pattern) is what changes the standard deviation.

Edited by Mystere, 10 February 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[FupDup]

TexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

What if someone drops an Arty and kills 3 guys by being extremely lucky? Is this any different?

No, it's not, that's why a number of Forumwarriors would like to see arty made to shoot shells with less damage each, but in higher quantity and over a longer duration.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Hyperbole aside, CHOICES! Choices are what makes a game a "thinking man's shooter".

No, tactics and strategy are what make this different from other games, you can't just run and gun however you please in this game. Whether you realize it or not, by tying movement and heat to CoF/aim, you are actually removing choices, not increasing them.

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

So you are saying this would make the game harder? That contradicts the points being asserted that it gives newer players some advantage.

Well, if someone has to chainfire to hit reliably while on the move, or hot, then yes. What I am trying to point out however is the game currently requires plenty of thought, just not with regards to aim, which isn't really a bad thing.

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Respectfully I disagree. I think that while both of those strategies will be very viable, any mixture of builds in between the extremes will be JUST as viable

If you think this then I'm going to have to say you don't understand the importance of being able to run and gun that many mechs rely on being able to do to be useful. I know this seems contradictory to the above, but harassers rely heavily on positioning and being able shoot on the move while trying to maintain range advantage as opposed to just bunny-hopping/running-and-gunning through terrain without a single concern.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 February 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FupDup, on 10 February 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

No, it's not, that's why a number of Forumwarriors would like to see arty made to shoot shells with less damage each, but in higher quantity and over a longer duration.

Arty should be available only to the guy who picks "Company" and "Lance" commanders. I mean, not every buck private would have access to arty. This game seems like its giving in way to much to the CoD crowd and making an overall really bad game that lacks alot of sense, tactics, and skill.......spamming unlimited ammo weaponry every 4s, PP exactly where you aim it, is not skill.

[Ratpoison]

Mystere, on 10 February 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Tortuous does not seem to know what a gaussian distribution is and that your actions in-game (i.e. movement, heat accumulation, firing pattern) is what changes the standard deviation.

I understand both those things perfectly well, and strongly reject them for reasons that I have already stated.

You were more fun back when you weren't being a passive aggressive tool all over the forum.

[Hotthedd]

FupDup, on 10 February 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

An unknown location within the reticule, that is.

Seriously though, ice cream cones of fire aren't the only possible alternative to convergence under the sun.

The reticle size is determined by the choices I make, so, okay. You are right, many good ideas have been proposed. This is one of them.

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Oh yeah, I'm sure the losing teams of the upcoming $100,000 tournament will be satisfied with that answer when RNG screws them.

The better team will still win, only bad losers complain about something within their own control and affected by their own decisions. This proposal does NOT affect teamwork (which is the primary driver in winning).

[FupDup]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 February 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

Arty should be available only to the guy who picks "Company" and "Lance" commanders. I mean, not every buck private would have access to arty. This game seems like its giving in way to much to the CoD crowd and making an overall really bad game that lacks alot of sense, tactics, and skill.......spamming unlimited ammo weaponry every 4s, PP exactly where you aim it, is not skill.

On that topic, I think it would be neato if the Command Console let the user equip both Arty and Air at the same time, and gave a bonus module slot for that exact purpose.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

No, tactics and strategy are what make this different from other games, you can't just run and gun however you please in this game. Whether you realize it or not, by tying movement and heat to CoF/aim, you are actually removing choices, not increasing them.


Well, if someone has to chainfire to hit reliably while on the move, or hot, then yes. What I am trying to point out however is the game currently requires plenty of thought, just not with regards to aim, which isn't really a bad thing.


If you think this then I'm going to have to say you don't understand the importance of being able to run and gun that many mechs rely on being able to do to be useful.

No, you are forcing MORE choices, and the player who can best manage that will be the better player.

But there is no choice between chain fire and alpha striking currently, and that IS a bad thing.

You define useful as what can a pilot do in his 'mech while alpha striking everything, this makes that less deadly, but not useless. And remember, it is a two-way street.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Well, if someone has to chainfire to hit reliably while on the move, or hot, then yes. What I am trying to point out however is the game currently requires plenty of thought, just not with regards to aim, which isn't really a bad thing.


If you think this then I'm going to have to say you don't understand the importance of being able to run and gun that many mechs rely on being able to do to be useful.

Chain fire in this game while on the move would be no different then FPS while moving and shooting you burst fire, slowly firing. It is not nearly as effective as standing, ADS and shooting.

Yeah, we are in multi billion dollar warmachines, but they still require time to get the guns on target, zero in, converge on the target and become even remotely accurate.

RUn and gun doesnt mean being able to endlessly spam your fire button pin point accurately all the time. Run and gun is generally very inaccurate anyway. I mean, just try it in RL, grab 2 airsoft rifles, hang them below your arms like a battlemech and just try to shoot a target at like 50 yards while jogging back and forth.

that experiment alone would really display how much sense CoF actually makes.

[Ratpoison]

TexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

As other games with CoF or any other form of RNG don't have any tournaments?

What if someone drops an Arty and kills 3 guys by being extremely lucky? Is this any different?

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 February 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Dude wake up, every game ever uses RNG/COF or some deviation. Tourney worthy players learn to adapt to the system, learn the limitations, adapt strategies, tactics and teamplay to over come any kind of RNG issues. The teams bitching cuz RNG screwed them, they either are in the "Tomato" fields with all the other baddies, or they are the tourney teams wiped out in the preseasons....

I mean, honestly, list 5 FPS style games or hell, go beyond, list me 5 games period that do NOT use a CoF/RNG or some form of deviation. I honestly cant think of 1 game that does not have some sort of mitigating factor to keep people from doing exactly what this game does.

I mean, i think WoT took the RNG way to far, but every game ever has a CoF/RNG or some other. Sooo, yeah,

Ugh, I'm tired of retyping the same responses to the same arguments, so here's what I already wrote:

tortuousGoddess, on 09 February 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

Have you not noticed that the shooters you are talking about are nearly all foot soldier shooters? Where you're a 200 lb. man with a gun? As opposed to a 100 ton, gyroscopically stabilized war machine?

The recoil and CoF systems are excellent in CounterStrike. The weapon shot pattern system allows the CoF mechanic to be dampened and predictable. More importantly, this is a game where your controls are nimble and precise, allowing you to stutter step to negate the CoF and make a precise killshot against full health opponents on a split second's notice. You can make that kill before the CoF even comes into play. That isn't a luxury that you get in a Battlemech. You have to accurately place damage on the correct components repeatedly to kill an opponent, and in trades, the difference between ST and Arm is often the difference between effective damage and wasted damage. Now imagine how CounterStrike would feel if everyone had 8 separated locations on their body with their own health, that each take 20 times as many hits to kill compared to normal health. Suddenly, that CoF is just a ridiculous diceroll liability.

You need to realize that MWO is unique from nearly every other shooter, and this makes many popular shooting concepts unworkable. CoF is one of those concepts.

The better team will still win most of the time, but RNG like this would also tip the scales in the favor of the weaker team at times. Sometimes that's enough of an advantage to win, and that makes it unacceptable.

Also you should note that many tournaments in the past have banned Arty for exactly the reasons you talked about. It could be changed to be acceptable, however.

[Metus regem]

FupDup, on 10 February 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

On that topic, I think it would be neato if the Command Console let the user equip both Arty and Air at the same time, and gave a bonus module slot for that exact purpose.

I'd like it better if the a Command Console was required to be on your team some where to use them period, you know give a reason to take that thing on what should be command mechs in the first place....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

You define useful as what can a pilot do in his 'mech while alpha striking everything, this makes that less deadly, but not useless.

Except being incredibly inaccurate outside of facehugging (or even 200m) range, is very useless, especially when you can't match the damage of weapons that already have spread, that seems to be thing you don't get, the whole point of adding CoF is making alpha strikes worthless so that only chain-fire lives, especially given that heat is a factor as well.

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 February 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Chain fire in this game while on the move would be no different then FPS while moving and shooting you burst fire, slowly firing. It is not nearly as effective as standing, ADS and shooting.

So wait, we want this game to more like standard FPS games.....huh?

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 February 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

RUn and gun doesnt mean being able to endlessly spam your fire button pin point accurately all the time.

If you think you are able to do that here then I don't know what to tell you, because I'm not able to do that even in PUG queue.

[Mystere]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Oh yeah, I'm sure the losing teams of the upcoming $100,000 tournament will be satisfied with that answer when RNG screws them.

Over seven and a half million American dollars?!!!

Where are the RNG complaints? Where are the investigations on the validity of said complaints? Oh no! They must not want the losing players to discover that RNGJesus screwed them over.

Over seven and a half million American dollars?!!! Bonkers!

Edited by Mystere, 10 February 2016 - 10:15 AM.