1094 replies to this topic

[Ratpoison]

Mystere, on 10 February 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Over seven and a half million American dollars?!!!

Where are the RNG complaints? Where are the investigations on the validity of said complaints? Oh no! They must not want the losing players to discover that RNGJesus screwed them over.

Over seven and a half million American dollars?!!! Bonkers!

Come on man, I literally have a post THREE POSTS UP talking about CounterStrike's RNG features, to make a point about why it doesn't work in MWO. You aren't even trying anymore. I guess we know why CoF topics always go nowhere, if this is the level of enthusiasm backing it. Then again, I never really worried that PGI might actually go through with this nonsense, I just wanted my posts to be informative to some readers about why it's bad for the game. The arguments, they don't matter.

Edited by tortuousGoddess, 10 February 2016 - 10:28 AM.

[Arkon von Drachenfels]

I absolutely LOVE that idea.
It would be a lot more "Battletechy" than the current shooter system.
As a bonus it would be more realistic and Targeting computers finally usefull

Great documentation with the pics and all - very well done

[Livewyr]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

Not strawmanning or using hyperbole, the picture I used was quite clearly between short and mid ranges.

It's been a while, what ranges are those two picture at? (And what Cone of Fire is that circle from?)

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

And I'm sorry, but you're crazy if you think that's how it will play out outside of tier 5. Mechs moving full speed can take as much as two full seconds to stop, and they'd have to in order to effectively hit a target in cover.

I guess they'll have to learn about the throttle percentages between zero and 100%... (I don't know why we have them currently, nobody uses them unless they're just waiting for the group to blob up and still want to advance slowly.)

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

I dunno if you've never played the shoulder fire ridge camping game, but it takes only a split second to nudge over the ridge and come to a stop, because speed doesn't build up much in that time. 2 seconds(on top of human reaction time) is more than enough to throw damage at you with no risk of return fire(unless you roll the dice and hope for that <10% chance of hitting the mark). Competitive players certainly wont have a problem throwing out the risk free damage.

For a light mech, and some medium mechs, that is true. Heavies and assaults still have inertial effects, especially since they nuked the accel/decel efficiencies.

(Buff to Light/Med mechs!)

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

The current meta can be fixed in plenty of ways, CoF will only make it far worse. You seem to be forgetting that CoF makes cover incredibly strong, since cover reduces the area in which you can be targeted. Don't underestimate the consequences of such a mistake on balance.

You haven't explained yet how CoF will make it far worse. It will change it, but it's a lateral change.

Cover has always been strong, and will always be strong. It's Cover. Having more time before you can accurately shoot during your hillhump will decrease the advantage of the hillhump tactic.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Except being incredibly inaccurate outside of facehugging (or even 200m) range, is very useless, especially when you can't match the damage of weapons that already have spread, that seems to be thing you don't get, the whole point of adding CoF is making alpha strikes worthless so that only chain-fire lives, especially given that heat is a factor as well.

"Incredibly inaccurate"? So you are saying that in your opinion anything less than pinpoint convergence is "incredibly inaccurate"?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

"Incredibly inaccurate"? So you are saying that in your opinion anything less than pinpoint convergence is "incredibly inaccurate"?

No I'm saying that any worthwhile alpha is bound to have an insane amount of spread otherwise the CoF fails to actually stop alphas.

[Shredhead]

Livewyr, on 10 February 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

Because the current stale long range hill humping/jump sniping is so amazing, right? Boreal is just soooo much fun fighting a bunch of Hillhumping LL stalkers/Guass Jagers.....

That exists only because the maps are built to favor long range engagements. Strangely enough, this stuff rarely happens on standard maps...

Quote

Exactly what does one do to "learn" to click accurately? (Which is the entire point...with a laser vomit build.. there is only point & click.)

Are you playing MW4 right now? Because there is no point and click with lasers in this game! It's point, click and hold on the target location, otherwise you're spreading all that pretty 20-30 points of laser damage you can distribute at once over the whole enemy mech. Strawmanning that hard...

Quote

Please, do enlighten me. How does one learn to aim with a laser vomit build? What neat experience does one need to gain in order to aim better with a laser vomit? I am MOST curious. This is definitely a serious question.

As I said above, you have to learn to keep those lasers on the target location for the duration it burns. Here's also a useful link for you. Gee, I wonder why there are 492.000 findings for this topic alone...

Quote

We're not proposing dropping the skill cap. We're proposing raising the skill cap. Instead of Point & Click with lasers whenever the heck you feel like it; you have to first think about speed, heat, etc... *that* is skill.

No, you're just shifting the skill gap towards things that are a: easier to game and b: easier to handle, learn and overcome. You're dumbing it down.

Quote

(And while you're on your high horse, remember that many, if not most of us who are proponents of a player controlled CoF are damned good shots. When I did play this candy crush anology of a game, I usually ended up with the most kills or assists with only a medium amount of damage because I hit the CT, every bloody time. I bet if I played Candy Crush, I'd be a monster at it.)

So you don't even play the game. And you were allegedly king of the underhive. Wow. I'm impressed. That's almost like when I play with buddies who are Tier 4 or 3, and we meet only lower tier enemies. Playing this game on higher skill levels is a whole different experience. You know, when you get enemies that know how to twist, move and position.

Quote

We're also tired of the game being entirely "who shoots first" regardless of the situation. It is the epitome of twitch. You don't even have to think. You just click accurately. (And no, that isn't a strawman, unless you can explain to me what exactly I have to think about with a laser vomit build in order to hit someone within range...)

You would create the absolute epitome of such gameplay with that proposition! You want to come at me? Well, too bad, we've got a firing line with Gauss Rifles only waiting for you to show, so we can set the first hit and **** you up for good before you can fire back effectively! And you're still strawmanning hard, because hitting a mech with lasers =/= hitting the vulnerable components consistently. Drawing a painting on an enemy mech with my lasers gets me damage, but not efficiency!

Quote

I think it would cripple jumpsniping because of the CoF generated by a jump. (Keep in mind, I think of Jump sniping at 800m+ shots while falling after a jump.)

Yeah, because that's really a thing right now. All that jump sniper meta. Holy ****.

Quote

Jumpshooting would be less effected as I stated earlier.

Mystere, on 10 February 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

I think that is the point right there. They just do not understand.

The OP's proposal would lower the skill cap? Hilarious.

Yes, hilarious. Your arrogant assumption everybody just doesn't understand is really hilarious.

Mystere, on 10 February 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Over seven and a half million American dollars?!!!

Where are the RNG complaints? Where are the investigations on the validity of said complaints? Oh no! They must not want the losing players to discover that RNGJesus screwed them over.

Over seven and a half million American dollars?!!! Bonkers!

Thanks for showing that! You are aware that there is no CoF, no RNG at all in that game, right? You're really hilarious, Buster.

[Dino Might]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

I do understand your idea, because it was discussed not even 12 hours earlier in here, and I condemned the same ideas for the same reasons then. You even used the same falacious "you have to consider more factors" argument, and like I said the last three or five times, you still have to consider all of those factors with convergence. It is not a bit different from taking pilot error, enemy pilot skill, and the general unexpected into consideration, exactly as we do now with perfect convergence.

The only difference is that there is not an RNG changing the end results of combat, and there shouldn't be.

You don't have to consider mech speed at all with the current system. If you point at something and click, your point of impact is exactly the same relative to your point of aim (dead on for lasers, slightly below for ballistics, CoF *gasp* for missiles and MGs) whether you are going 150kph or 0kph. Your weapons, assuming no missiles, have perfect predictability, which I understand you really like.
If your heat is at 98% or 0%, you still shoot everything to right where you were aimed with perfect precision. That means that point of impact is completely independent of movement and heat. That means you do not need to consider them for your point of impact decision. Yes, you do have to consider them for the other aspects of the game (do I shut down? am I able to dodge fire? etc.), but they do not in any way affect weapon accuracy.

As for your counterstrike example, you claim that CoF makes the game more variable when it takes more than one shot to kill an opponent. That's actually backwards. CoF makes the game more variable when it takes only one shot to kill an opponent. Consider the mathematical models of all firearm manufacturers that produce competition target rifles, using CoF or similar models to determine how best to engineer their weapons for winning competitions. The competitions are courses of fire from 20-200 rounds, and the person with the smallest combined CoF relative to the bullseye will win every time. If the competition were one shot and one shot only, then you could have someone who has no idea what they are doing get extremely lucky and land dead center while the guy who is a trained marksman is off center by a hair. That will not happen 20 times in a row. It will almost never happen even two times in a row. Your idea on how CoF affects long-term multiple round engagements is exactly the opposite of reality, and it belies your misunderstanding of statistics and the Gaussian Distribution. You say you understand what these things are and how they work, but what you say proves otherwise.

Here is your chance, explain to me what the Gaussian Distribution is and why it is used to model nature quite often - if your answer is satisfactory, I will cease challenging your knowledge on the matter.

Edited by Dino Might, 10 February 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Mystere]

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

Yes, hilarious. Your arrogant assumption everybody just doesn't understand is really hilarious.

So are you saying that the OP's proposal will actually lower the skill cap? If so, explain and in detail.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

Thanks for showing that! You are aware that there is no CoF, no RNG at all in that game, right? You're really hilarious, Buster.

Shush! Dang it! Don't spoil my fun! He did not know that ... at all!!!

Edited by Mystere, 10 February 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dino Might, on 10 February 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

That means that point of impact is completely independent of movement and heat.

This is true, but when firing there are often other considerations than simply point of impact, like heat (will I shutdown if I fire now or how many of my guns can I fire without shutting down?) and movement (did I clear enough of the terrain for my shot to hit, or did I over expose?).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 February 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[Dino Might]

Mystere, on 10 February 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

So are you saying that the OP's proposal will actually lower the skill cap? If so, explain and in detail.




Shush! Dang it! Don't spoil my fun! He did not know that ... at all!!!

I have a solution. Make the crosshair randomly move about in the pre-calculated CoF, and the shots ALWAYS go EXACTLY where the crosshair is pointing (okay, so we'll ignore realistic CoF of the weapon itself, because space magic). Now everyone is happy

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

This is true, but when firing there are often other considerations than simply point of impact, like heat (will I shutdown if I fire now or how many of my guns can I fire without shutting down?) and movement (did I clear enough of the terrain for my shot to hit, or did I over expose?).

Agreed - but those are NOT considerations for point of impact relative to the crosshair (assuming no terrain impediments, which is a different question altogether - not relevant to discussing convergence issues). The point being made was that heat and movement affect convergence (which we already know is untrue, so I read it to mean POI vs POA). That is also false.

[GenJack]

This would solve sooo many issues.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

No I'm saying that any worthwhile alpha is bound to have an insane amount of spread otherwise the CoF fails to actually stop alphas.

So alphas would become situational, instead of the default option?

Sounds like it was supposed to be in the lore! I'm all for it then.

[Dino Might]

Anecdotal here, so take it with a grain of salt.

Last night we played "get the VIP" where one team must escort an assault mech and the other team has to kill it to win. The best way to do this is set up an ambush and go after the VIP without regard for the other mechs. The easiest way to put out as much damage in as fast a time as possible is grab a big laser boat (HBK-4P), run with override on, charge in and blast as many alphas at the VIP's legs as possible, and then go down in a hail of weapons fire from the 5 or 6 escorts. You only need 2 or 3 attackers to do this and you win. We still had tons of fun figuring out the best way to ambush or prevent ambushes on the different maps, and it was a great set of games, BUT....

What if I couldn't expect to hit with all 42 damage everytime I alpha'd at 70%, 90%, and 150% heat? I would have to play that significantly differently and rethink my tactics depending on the map (how close could I get, how many alphas and how effective would each one be with the overheat and movement).

The proposed CoF mechanic could have really changed the way those games were played.

[Kuritaclan]

Dino Might, on 10 February 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Anecdotal here, so take it with a grain of salt.

Last night we played "get the VIP" where one team must escort an assault mech and the other team has to kill it to win. The best way to do this is set up an ambush and go after the VIP without regard for the other mechs. The easiest way to put out as much damage in as fast a time as possible is grab a big laser boat (HBK-4P), run with override on, charge in and blast as many alphas at the VIP's legs as possible, and then go down in a hail of weapons fire from the 5 or 6 escorts. You only need 2 or 3 attackers to do this and you win. We still had tons of fun figuring out the best way to ambush or prevent ambushes on the different maps, and it was a great set of games, BUT....

What if I couldn't expect to hit with all 42 damage everytime I alpha'd at 70%, 90%, and 150% heat? I would have to play that significantly differently and rethink my tactics depending on the map (how close could I get, how many alphas and how effective would each one be with the overheat and movement).

The proposed CoF mechanic could have really changed the way those games were played.

Chase the VIP does not win the battle. That's the problem. It is still fun, but irrelevant.

[Gloris]

Having played a lot of WoT in the past, a game where accuracy is HUGELY influence by RNG, i'm looking foreward to this change.

Not because i think it's a good idea, i think it's a horrible one.

I just want to see how many people who think putting RNG in the accuracy is a brilliant idea will start crying their eyes out the first time they accidentally TK someone because of RNG, or miss game winning shots because RNG made them miss.

If these changes come people will still alpha, only difference is that now instead of crying "QQQQALPHAQQQ" people will cry "QQQ ENEMY GOT LUCKY I DIDN'T QQQQ"

Because you can Alpha at 99% heat like the biggest donkey and still get a lucky RNG roll and hit the pinpoint center.

Edited by Gloris, 10 February 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[FupDup]

Gloris, on 10 February 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

Having played a lot of WoT in the past, a game where accuracy is HUGELY influence by RNG, i'm looking foreward to this change.

Not because i think it's a good idea, i think it's a horrible one.

I just want to see how many people who think putting RNG in the accuracy is a brilliant idea will start crying their eyes out the first time they accidentally TK someone because of RNG, or miss game winning shots because RNG made them miss.

If these changes come people will still alpha, only difference is that now instead of crying "QQQQALPHAQQQ" people will cry "QQQ ENEMY GOT LUCKY I DIDN'T QQQQ"

Here is an early gameplay video of this change in effect:

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

So alphas would become situational, instead of the default option?

By situational I think you mean worthless outside of niche facehugging scenarios, so basically all you really did was flip the usefulness of both, in other words, you didn't really create worthwhile choices.

[Dino Might]

Gloris, on 10 February 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

Because you can Alpha at 99% heat like the biggest donkey and still get a lucky RNG roll and hit the pinpoint center.

So that would have to happen repeatedly to kill the enemy and change the outcome of the particular game that turned out to be dependent on that one shot (which is going to be rare in and of itself). And all of those situations would line up so that would happen, what, one in a million times? I'm okay with that.

As opposed to now, where "you can Alpha at 99% heat like the biggest donkey and..." ALWAYS hit the pinpoint center.

^ that seems silly to me, and I just don't think that it makes for a very engaging game. I used to play this game a lot, and I find that I play it less and less now for the actual game. I generally play it just to hang out with people. If I'm going to do something on my own, I'll go fly DCS, because I like simulators.

Edited by Dino Might, 10 February 2016 - 11:33 AM.

[Metus regem]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

By situational I think you mean worthless outside of niche facehugging scenarios, so basically all you really did was flip the usefulness of both, in other words, you didn't really create worthwhile choices.

I was thinking more along the lines of "well I'm boned, lets try and take you out with me!" as far as Alpha fire is concerned....mind you, if I get caught in a situation like that, then I've done something wrong.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 10 February 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

mind you, if I get caught in a situation like that, then I've done something wrong.

Which it isn't a really useful scenario, plus we have that currently, and it is just flipping on shutdown override and firing away until you die by the enemy or the heat damage.