1094 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

process, on 10 February 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

Because the OP shows movement as a contributing factor to a larger CoF. How else do I mitigate that? The only circle with the equivalent size as standing still is TC+module+skill unlock.

TC and Command Console*

[FupDup]

Mystere, on 10 February 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

It is really that fatal, especially even if that cone is fully within my intended target section of the Mech?

>Implying that it's only the size of the enemy mech's section

Take a look back at some of those mock-up pictures that Tex made. Specifically, look at the ones that deal with ranges of 400 meters or longer. Heck, even the pictures dealing with only 200 meters and no zoom can be pretty big in some cases.

Those are sure as heck larger than a single body panel even on a heavy like the Cataphract. If smaller targets are involved then it gets even dicier...

Edited by FupDup, 10 February 2016 - 01:15 PM.

[Livewyr]

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

No, it doesn't. As long as you don't bring a full 12 man, long range games simply don't take place regularly in public matches.

Well, not I imagine they would be less frequent in pub matches where teamwork isn't a factor (comparatively)
But when you bring a 12-man (intending to win) they do happen.. I wonder why that is...
*hint* Lasers favor long range, and bringing a team favors long range.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

And even then it's quite hard to dispatch the enemy before he comes into mid range.

Depends on who is shooting.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

And big fat strawman again. Desktop icons are usually bigger than mechs you aim at, not to speak of distinct components.

You missed the point. I cannot help you.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

No ****, Sherlock. Memorizing to stand still and not heat up is so much more difficult, though, I see.

Reductio ad absurdom.

It requires forethought. (Sitting still to take long range accurate shots means you need to plan ahead. Also,you must plan ahead so you're not too hot to shoot accurately.)

Forethought not your thing?

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

And you should think about your arguments, they are quite ridiculous.

Cute. You take the crown on that one though.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

A system that rewards standing still and using cool weapons.

A system that rewards a person who minimizes the risks involved in requirements for long range accuracy.
Instead of a system that just rewards a person for using high mounted hardpoints.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

It's maybe numerically less factors, but the factors you add with that system are way easier to adjust to.

They are easy to adjust too, with skill (intelligence for forethought.) As opposed to just muscle memory and mouse DPI...

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

I would like a more challenging aiming system. Random hits within a circle aren't a challenge though, except for my patience.

Mostly random (do you understand what a statistical distribution is?) where the limits are governed by your actions and planning.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

So? My point was that you obviously didn't play in your skill tier if the enemies didn't offer you any challenge.

Yeah... must be.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

I doubt that.

Cute.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Yes, I can. Do you think it's hard to come to a standstill from just moving five meters up a ridge or to the side?

Certainly more challenging than what it is now. (With planning involved.)

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

LRMs aren't usefull in this kind of engagement, though.

They are, for that "disaster" scenario of "some guy standing on a ridge waiting for you," he's just asking to get dumbfired... or he can move.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

It always does.

Right now, hardly.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

No, it's really not. There's also no "shoulder mounted hill humping meta" outside CW, where this kind of gameplay is encouraged by map layout and gamemodes. Does poking happen? Yes. But it doesn't dominate the normal public games. Are high mounts beneficial? Yes. Even to a point where it's influencing the meta. But that's due to people wanting and needing the ability to shoot stuff that's higher or lower without hitting ledges left and right.

You mean to tell me that in Community Warfare where people are trying to win with a team, that they use the hillhump meta with long range lasers and Gauss rifles? But they don't in the solo queue underhive of everyone for themselves?

Color me Shocked.


You do realize that every time you mention the meta- it's by organized teams trying to win? Imagine that....



-------------------------------------
I think I'm just going to be done with you, Shred. You're becoming pointlessly tedious, and without substance even.

Dismissed.

Edited by Livewyr, 10 February 2016 - 01:18 PM.

[TexAce]

process, on 10 February 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

Because the OP shows movement as a contributing factor to a larger CoF. How else do I mitigate that? The only circle with the equivalent size as standing still is TC+module+skill unlock.

Dakota1000, on 10 February 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

TC and Command Console*

All I'm proposing is "CoF based on [factors]" or more in detail
"CoF based on reducing (-) and expanding (+) [factors]".

Those factors would be whatever PGI and who ever has a say decide. It could be pinpoint all the way except when your heat bar is over 70% or when you are alphaing.

And the only other thing I proposed is roughly the sizes of the maximum CoF and minimum CoF while those [factors] are playing a role.

Then I gave ideas what those factors could all be:

Modules
Pilot Skills
TC
CC
Moving/Standing
Zooming
Heatbar
Ghostheat
Number of weapons fired
Alpha
...

I seriously hoped people would have enough brainpower to leave any real numbers out of my proposal and just accept it as a base, a sctructure which is filled with the variables next.

Edited by TexAce, 10 February 2016 - 01:22 PM.

[Shredhead]

I wasn't talking about solo queue. I can't even remember the last time I played solo queue.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Also just wondering, since alpha strikes are punished but chain fire isn't, what does the Locust 1V with its one ERLL do?

Also since movement, extra heat, and firing all weapons at once all cause your aim to deteriorate, what does it do?

Do you hate Locusts?!?

TexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

I seriously hoped people would have enough brainpower to leave any real numbers out of my proposal and just accept it as a base, a sctructure which is filled with the variables next.

I'm simply glad we have the brainpower to look at any of the real problems.

Edited by Dakota1000, 10 February 2016 - 01:21 PM.

[FupDup]

Dakota1000, on 10 February 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

Also just wondering, since alpha strikes are punished but chain fire isn't, what does the Locust 1V with its one ERLL do?

Also since movement, extra heat, and firing all weapons at once all cause your aim to deteriorate, what does it do?

Do you hate Locusts?!?

This is an important point to bring up in all of this.

The term "alpha strike" is a relative term with a broad meaning. It just means firing all of your guns at the same time. It doesn't matter what guns those are, how strong those guns are, or how many of those guns you have, just as long as you fire "all" of them.

For instance, a Spider 5D with 3 MPL firing those 3 MPL at the same time is by definition "alpha striking."

[TexAce]

FupDup, on 10 February 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

This is an important point to bring up in all of this.

The term "alpha strike" is a relative term with a broad meaning. It just means firing all of your guns at the same time. It doesn't matter what guns those are, how strong those guns are, or how many of those guns you have, just as long as you fire "all" of them.

For instance, a Spider 5D with 3 MPL firing those 3 MPL at the same time is by definition "alpha striking."

No, alpha strike is a button on your keyboard.

But it could also be everything that triggers ghost heat (just using the Ghost heat table numbers)
Or it could be anything that exceeds a certain amount of damage and is triggered with one button at the same time.
Or anything that exceeds a certain amount of heat when firing at the same time.

This is not on me to define. That's where PGI's game designers would come in, if they would have any.

Edited by TexAce, 10 February 2016 - 01:27 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

TexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

All I'm proposing is "CoF based on [factors]"

...

Then I gave ideas what those factors could all be:

Modules
Pilot Skills
TC
CC
Moving/Standing
Zooming
Heatbar
Ghostheat
Number of weapons fired
Alpha

...

We get that you will essentialy peanlize loudout space and no module byers for having accurate targeting computers. So to speak get a TC 7 into your damn mech an you have full time convergence. TC I not so much. KK I'm ok with this however. Even 1 ton of computer should be enough to copute what a Playstation can do nowadays. Now i need 7 tonnage playstations to hit the nail. Sry for but i need to go to the cellar to laugh now.

[FupDup]

TexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

No, alpha strike is a button on your keyboard.

But it could also be everything that triggers ghost heat (just using the Ghost heat table numbers)

Or it could be anything that exceeds a certain amount of damage and is triggered with one button at the same time.

This is not on me to define.

So does this mean that as long as I don't push that exact button, your system doesn't even register it as an alpha strike?

That's a pretty gigantic loophole. I can just use the fire button for different weapon groups at the same time, e.g. left click for group 1 and right click for group 2.

In terms of things that trigger Paranormal Heat, that is also laughably avoided by nearly every high-alpha build in the game, like the infamous Clam LPL + ERML vomit.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

TexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

No, alpha strike is a button on your keyboard.

But it could also be everything that triggers ghost heat (just using the Ghost heat table numbers)

Or it could be anything that exceeds a certain amount of damage and is triggered with one button at the same time.

This is not on me to define.

It is for you to define since it was your idea.

Also I never alpha strike with the keyboard, if I must I just fire all my fire groups at once manually. Are you saying that I can circumvent this mechanic simply by alpha striking with 2 keys at once instead of just 1?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

TexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

No, alpha strike is a button on your keyboard.

No, Fupdup is correct, an alpha strike is firing all your equipped weapons, the button on your keyboard is just a shortcut and is no different than a group with all weapons in it.

What you are talking about is simply some sort of threshold for CoF that might depend on various factors, but it is still something different.

[TexAce]

Kuritaclan, on 10 February 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

We get that you will essentialy peanlize loudout space and no module byers for having accurate targeting computers. So to speak get a TC 7 into your damn mech an you have full time convergence. TC I not so much. KK I'm ok with this however. Even 1 ton of computer should be enough to copute what a Playstation can do nowadays. Now i need 7 tonnage playstations to hit the nail. Sry for but i need to go to the cellar to laugh now.

You should already be laughing that any computer weights 1 ton.

Oh no, wait, this is a game with walking robots. You must have already died from laughter when you launched this game.

See where I'm going?

Besides who says a mech like an Oxide would need any TCs?
Who says a TC is mendatory in my proposal?
I gave you a POOL of variables to pick from and you are puilling arguments out of your heads how it suits you.

[Hotthedd]

FupDup, on 10 February 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yes it is actually. You have some control over how big the cone is, sure, but no matter what the size of the cone is you still never know WHERE in that cone that the shot will land. It just gives you the maximum boundaries of where it can/can't land.

So for example with cones I might shoot a bullet and it goes straight to the left of the aiming point. Or it might go up and to the right diagonally. Or it could go in any other number of directions. For all intents and purposes, it's still "random."

And if you put the entire cone within a component, it would still all hit that component. Like I said before, it is as "random" as me asking you to pick a random integer between 4 and 6.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

random integer between 4 and 6.

That's still random, coin flips are random well, to a degree (because humans are why it is random), but you get the idea, so this really doesn't make sense. Putting a range on it doesn't make it not random.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 February 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[TexAce]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

No, Fupdup is correct, an alpha strike is firing all your equipped weapons, the button on your keyboard is just a shortcut and is no different than a group with all weapons in it.

What you are talking about is simply some sort of threshold for CoF that might depend on various factors, but it is still something different.

Trust me I know exactly what I'm talking about.

What is everyone talking about when the term Alpha strike is used? Is pressing the groups to get 2LPLs+4ERMLs at the same time not an alpha strike? You don't question those neither when they use the term.

I told 2 posts before that I'm basing it on factors, which can be decided by PGI.

If PGI decided everything that produces 30+ heat at once is from now on an alpha strike, than that is an alpha strike.

If they decide that everything that produces 30+ heat from now on triggers a CoF, than thats the factor they chose to play a role in a CoF.

Edited by TexAce, 10 February 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

TexAce, on 10 February 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Is pressing the groups to get 2LPLs+4ERMLs at the same time not an alpha strike?

Yes, it is, but that is still relative since not all alpha strikes are equal, like Fup's example of the 3 MPL Spider.

The term existed prior to the keyboard shortcut and it is kind of silly to change the term around to mean something very different.

[LordKnightFandragon]

I just dont understand why people find having these big *** battle mechs die just as fast as human shooters.

We have all this armor and ****, yet we just go around alphing everything, killing off even super quirked assaults in 3-4 shots.

Its why this game has such stupid *** quirks, what mech is it that has those assinine armor quirks on it? 300 some internal structure? What? The Blackjack was it?

I would use a CoF mechanic to lessen the output that we can put on each other, cuz really, it needs to come down. Melting assault mechs in like 3 hits is ********. I mean, I just ran the training grounds and my Stormcrow was dead in like 4 hits. I couldnt twist away or anything. I came around a corner and the AI Alphad me, I went from yellow to CT Critical damage, I was dead the next hit. That is boring as all ******* hell. If I wanted gameplay like that, I would stay in like Red Orchestra 2, where its OHK city.

were in these big *** mechs, they are supposed to be tanky, your supposed to shoot the **** out of each other for awhile.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

And if you put the entire cone within a component, it would still all hit that component. Like I said before, it is as "random" as me asking you to pick a random integer between 4 and 6.

You can't put a cone that is larger than a component into a component. The OP had a picture of a Jenner entirely surrounded by one of the cone of fires at long range.

Also you exactly defined an example of random choice, unless you are using 4 and 6 exclusively, which leaves you with only 5, which is still, in essence, a randomness function.

[Livewyr]

Unless one is just being a troll, they could probably conclude that an alpha strike would have a minimum number of weapons... you know.. some qualifiers.

Quit wasting time.