37 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Because allot of Convergence Topics are coming up, Again,
Many have Ideas of how Convergence could be Implemented, no To are alike,
i thought perhaps i should take a swing at the Problem and perhaps a Solution,


=First the Problem=
now this is a Simple Problem, Pin-Point & High Alphas,
But what is wrong with Mechs having Pin-Point & High Alphas?
Well, Pin-Point(Everything hitting 1 spot) & High Alphas(lots of damage),
so allot of damage all hitting a single point on a mech destroying it,

most FPS style games work off of what is known as a ray cast,
here a Ray or beam is cast out from the camera, into the 3D Space,
when this ray hits something it in the 3D world, its sends its location,
usually to a weapon, which then points to the location of contact,
-
this is how no mater where your weapon is located,
you always can hit what in aim at, this is also true for MWO,

-Example-

(Convergence1)
this is how MWO behaves right now when playing,


=My Idea & Solution=
not all Simple Problems have overly complicated solutions,
so i looked for a way Convergence could be implemented into MWO,
without much Coding and Scripting trouble, and without a large patch,

my Idea is to make weapons target past the target to simulate an Anti-Convergence,
what this would mean setting the distance to the Target Past that Target for targeting,
in Essence the father past the target you Aim at the less converged your weapons will be,
-
to allow for Sniping not to Suffer From this Change ive Made it Speed Based,
in a Ratio, of 1Kph:%1Range, this way at Not moving will still give you Perfect Convergence,
-
in this Below Example the Left Atlas is moving 50Kph, so its Aiming %50 Father way,
so if an enemy is 300m away, your weapons instead target 450m past them(+150m),
this will make Alphas Wail Moving Full Speed Less Accurate, without much Coding,

-Example-

(Convergence2)

But what about my Convergence Changing as the Range Changes?
well this system takes into account your Mechs distance to the Enemy Mech,
so as-long as the Mech is going a Constant Speed it will have Stable Convergence,
Speed,.......Distance to Enemy,.......Weapons Target,.......Convergence%,...
50Kph,................100m,..........................150m,........................-50%,..............
50Kph,................200m,..........................300m,........................-50%,..............
50Kph,................300m,..........................450m,........................-50%,..............
50Kph,................400m,..........................600m,........................-50%,..............
50Kph,................500m,..........................750m,........................-50%,..............
no matter the distance to target the Convergence would remain Static and Stable,
your shots will always hit in the same locations at any range at Constant Speed,

-Example-

(Convergence3)

But what about my Convergence Changing as the Range Changes?
well this system takes into account your Mechs Speed to the Weapon Convergence,
so as-long as the Players Mech is Slowing down the Mechs Convergence will Increase,
Speed,.......Distance to Enemy,.......Weapons Target,.......Convergence%,...
80Kph,................300m,..........................540m,........................-80%,..............
60Kph,................300m,..........................480m,........................-60%,..............
40Kph,................300m,..........................420m,........................-40%,..............
20Kph,................300m,..........................360m,........................-20%,..............
0Kph,..................300m,..........................300m,.........................-0%,..............
no matter the distance to target the Convergence would remain Linked to Speed,


=Conclusion=
yes wail decreasing Pin-Poin, this may increase aiming Difficulty in MWO,
but because of its Dynamic nature, it would be Easy-To-Learn/Hard-To-Master,
remember this proposed Cone-of-Fire does not widen the farther away it gets,
because of this players wont have to Adjust every time they look down range,
-
i dont feel this System will turn away New Players, if anything it may call to them,
distinguishing MWO from other Point-Click Mech shooters, wail Increasing TTK,
and Living longer in a battle will always help with Strategy and tactics,
which i believe is the Foundation of all Great MechWarrior Games,


=BUT LIGHTS!=
but what about lights? will they be harder to hit with this?
yes they will be, but they will also have less Convergence at High Speed,
in so keeping balance with the rest of the game, wail lowing Pin-Point Alphas,


=For Poll=
(Click Here)

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?
Please Vote, Thanks

Edit- Spelling,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 09 February 2016 - 05:09 PM.

[Aresye]

Yes, let's nerf the few pilots who actually can aim while maneuvering, because the problem in MWO clearly doesn't have anything to do with the majority of players poking from ridges and corners while barely moving (hint: it does).

This wouldn't fix anything we currently have going on in-game. In fact, this would only exacerbate the current problem!

Want to do a brawling push against a firing line? That's already tough as it is, but good freaking luck trying to push a stationary firing line that has perfect convergence while your own team suffers a -80% convergence penalty simply because they're trying to close distance. The enemy team's going to have to find a substitute remark for, "ggclose," because ggclose wouldn't even come close to describing how abysmally one-sided that failure of a match would be.

Do you want campwarrior online? because this is how you get campwarrior online.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Oh hey, yet another convergence thread, Andi I know you like making your own threads on balance issues as you see them a lot, but didn't you think its already a bit saturated around here?

Anyway I'm against non pinpoint, especially in the case of it being movement based as it makes our current issues worse by strengthening camping mechs and weakening moving brawlers and destroying light mech play.

[Kuritaclan]

Dakota1000, on 09 February 2016 - 02:17 PM, said:

Oh hey, yet another convergence thread, ....

They are growing better than mushrooms. And are all equally filled in first post with bad ideas beside some little highlights under the 100 posts afterwards.

All that need to be known is: Convergence is no problem, Alpha Strikes is no problem. The real problem this game has are accurate 3D Models, which aren't hugh Hitboxes.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 February 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[cazidin]

What's with all the convergence threads lately?

[Rushmoar]

cazidin, on 09 February 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

What's with all the convergence threads lately?

I don't know. And what people don't get is that the problem of convergence is that it's not the problem with TTK. It's the fast repeat ability of the alpha. Currently the heat scale (heat pool) starts at 60 points. Add some additional heat sinks and it goes above this. This is why the 6 PPC Stalker was allowed to exist. One alpha and the stalker would not shut down. Now introduce ghost heat.

TT heat scale starts at 30 I believe but games could last over an hour so this is not what you want in MWO. But how about dropping it down to 40. We currently can shoot 4 LPL in a Warhawk and with ghost heat, you will hit about 95% on the heat scale. So what is the difference between a 40 point heat pool and hitting 95% heat and 60 point heat pool plus ghost heat and you get the same result.

Some folks think that this might hurt game play in general because it would slow down the pace of the game. I have 2 answers to this question. 1st is heat management should be part of the game play. and over heating should be more of a mechanic of game play other then just shutting down. Elaborate on this and flamers would have a place in this game. 2nd, if the heat pool was lower, IS medium lasers could go to TT value of 3 heat (from what I have been told.) Blackjack could alpha only once then would have to wait a bit if it wanted to alpha again. The current work around the ghost heat with 6 medium and 2 medium pulse is just dumb. In my opinion of course.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Aresye,
its more on the Lines of Moving and Hitting PinPoint at +600m wail going 81Kph,
if your brawling 200-400m this likely wont affect you too much, as the spread is low at those Ranges,

@Dakota1000,
yup, but technicly im just revitalizing this one after a Rewrite, not Making a another Full one,
my Worry with any non PinPoint Argument is that Sniping will die off, which none of us want i think,
so thats i made it movement based, slower Lights may get a Boost, as they can aim more from this,
Close up Brawlers fight in such Close range that i dont think this will be much of a problem,

@Kuritaclan,
they Do but at least some of us can handle Criticism,
if its a bad idea lets talk to how i can make it better, together as a Community,
sadly i know some are Fiercely protecting their Ideas and Flaming all others with other Ideas,
-
Convergence is a slight Problem that needs a Slight Nerf,
Alpha Strikes is slight Problem that needs a Slight Nerf as per Convergence,
this game has are accurate 3D Models, such is the Problem of a MW Game,
ShadowHawk will always be a better HunchBack, with out Quirks,

@Cazidin,
Yup, hopefully some Good will Come out of them,
but none of us are gonna hold our Breath, just ask Dakota1000,
this has happened several times in the last year or so,

i dont have a Problem with being able to hit PinPoint 600m away wail Running 81Kph,
this would mostly hit those that sit 500-700m and Run, i maybe wrong but thats just how it is,

[LordKnightFandragon]

All lowering the heat cap would do is add a bigger gap between alphas. So, instead of being alpha'd every 4s, you would be alpha'd every 6 or 8 seconds...

Convergeance, cof, aim time, all things to lessen the sustainable output.

Just as in FPS, where if you "burst fire" your gun, you maintain accuracy, I would apply the same here. If you semi-slowly chain fired your weapons you would maintain near perfect accuracy, but if you fired 6 guns all at the same time, there would be an accuracy penalty applied.

Making it like WOT, where your COF blooms uncontrollably because you moved? No, that doesnt need to happen in this game, but some small deviation when firing large alphas does.

You all claim a CoF or something would ruin light play? naw, it would help it, since you would only have 4 mechs firing 1 or 2 guns at you, instead of 4 mechs firing 6 guns at you.....

Assaulting against a firing line would actually be easier, since the firing line would be firing sporadically 1 or 2 guns per mech rather then 6 guns per mech.

Also, it would require some actual tactics, and teamwork. You have 1 lance move in on the firing line while your missile boats actually provide fire support as they should. 2 LRM boats on the back to suppress the firing line, while your team moves up, maybe 1 or 2 mechs tocover the LRM boats.

what we have now is the biggest cluster **** of them all. One team makes a firing line, the other team attacks into it, and the team attacking gets absolutely mauled, since the firing line is firing 6 guns per mech, melting you before you even move. Just like with all the corner humping we have, its because if you even think of trying to actually move around and play the game, you get met with a face full of MPL endlessly, and then LRM spammed to pieces.

Light play is actually alot harder then it needs to be due to the high *** sustainable alphas. You all claim a COF of sorts would kill Light play? naw, it would make it easier. Slowing down our sustainable output would make the game as a whole alot more enjoyable, since you could finally move, you could actually break out of the deathball and have smaller skirmishes all over the map, rather then 2 deathballs circling the crater and corner humping, dodging the shitstorm of lasers. The absurd armor quirks wouldnt be neccesary, the quirking wouldnt be needed.......

[Kuritaclan]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 February 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

@Kuritaclan,
they Do but at least some of us can handle Criticism,
if its a bad idea lets talk to how i can make it better, together as a Community,
sadly i know some are Fiercely protecting their Ideas and Flaming all others with other Ideas,
-
Convergence is a slight Problem that needs a Slight Nerf,
Alpha Strikes is slight Problem that needs a Slight Nerf as per Convergence,
this game has are accurate 3D Models, such is the Problem of a MW Game,
ShadowHawk will always be a better HunchBack, with out Quirks,

Since it is a simulation - reality is simulated. Anyway. Lasers / Arrays of Lasers Converge pretty damn well today. As does other weapons. But thats only the lore side.

Moving and getting random generated inaccuracy on top of the inaccuracy we produce while trying to track the crosshair on the enemies with a lead is not a part i wanna hit and get penalty. Therefore standing stil is rewarded. I do not like running into fire lines, when they hit accurately but i get penalized. This will end in a trench warfare of snipe wars.
Convergence on a "fixed distance" benefit chassis with clustered weapons - this will end up in a balance mess. And we already have one. Also it still does not help. COF to little it is no real change. COF to wide to make even those with clusters suffer, will be fail².

What to say else are many more arguments getting thrown in the ring on other posts, i do not wanna repeat.

What i meant with accurate 3D Models are Models with innards, you need to destroy to disable/kill a mech. Therefore you need accuracy. This would benefit aiming skill and make it not that easy to land the alphas or if you choose to alpha you will be punished because what you hit may allready be gone - but you do not harm the enemy any further (hugh Hitboxes).

[Troutmonkey]

Your solution punishes aiming and skill needlessly. Convergence isn't the problem, accurate alpha strikes are.
Changing convergence makes all shots inaccurate and quite honestly convergence mechanics will be difficult for new players.

Your solution also has unintended consequences of making certain mechs far superior than other due to clustered hardpoints. If arms are unaffected by this, than good arm mounts become crucial in choosing the right mech. This solution makes many mechs obsolete.

What we need is a solution that only punishes pin point alpha strikes, and that solution is the one that I and many other have proposed - a Cone of Fire that only applies to alpha strikes and still lets players pace their shots if they want absolute accuracy.
http://mwomercs.com/...mo/page__st__40

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Also it still does not help. COF to little it is no real change. COF to wide to make even those with clusters suffer, will be fail².

CoF does work, and is completely unaffected by weapon hardpoint placement. I'm not sure where you get this idea from.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 09 February 2016 - 06:45 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

What we need is a solution that only punishes pin point alpha strikes, and that solution is the one that I and many other have proposed - a Cone of Fire that only applies to alpha strikes and still lets players pace their shots if they want absolute accuracy.
http://mwomercs.com/...mo/page__st__40

I'm not sold into your ideas (and those who are with you). Since i like to stick to the idea of a sim. And for this lasers don't suffer any cof or convergence problems. Period. Cof is a problem of ballistics and unguided missiles and so on. But those weapons don't cause "big" problems in the game for now beside maybe some uac boating on dires/kgc which are counterweight by the chassi performance.

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Also it still does not help. COF to little it is no real change. COF to wide to make even those with clusters suffer, will be fail².

CoF does work, and is completely unaffected by weapon hardpoint placement. I'm not sure where you get this idea from.

Do you ever shot from a kgc or dire or jm two ac20s with a lead on a running target? most time you don't have convergance in front of this targets becaus -> so you mostly hit with only one projectile. however if you now add up cof into it. the one who acutally hit and the other can with a big enough angle of the cof radius hit or miss bove. That is pure nonsense to me. It punishes on top of eating a high heat peanlity for firing two ac20. Those are the problems i for example have with cof.

And i know what "Spread" PGI implements if they implement COF. Look at the spread of LB-X 10s for example.

As you can see. LB-X 10 still suffer from a way to high spread. This weapon has a optimal range of 540m - however as you can the spread @200m on a wide as a barn door atlas is so high that you cover his full body from the left to the right.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 February 2016 - 07:22 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

[/url]
I'm not sold into your ideas (and those who are with you).



Do you ever shot from a kgc or dire or jm two ac20s with a lead on a running target? most time you don't have convergance in front of this targets becaus -> so you mostly hit with only one projectile. however if you now add up cof into it. the one who acutally hit and the other can with a big enough angle of the cof radius hit or miss bove. That is pure nonsense to me. It punishes on top of eating a high heat peanlity for firing two ac20. Those are the problems i for example have with cof.

And i know what "Spread" PGI implements if they implement COF. Look at the spread of LB-X 10s for example.

As you can see. LB-X 10 still suffer from a way to high spread. This weapon has a optimal range of 540m - however as you can the spread @200m on a wide as a barn door atlas is so high that you cover his full body from the left to the right.

The spread on LBX and SRMs is way to goddamn high, I somehow doubt anyone proposing a CoF is talking about a spread that high. I know I am talking about nothing more then somethng that would cause your 6 gun alpha strike at 1000m to hit all corners of the mech, closer then that, it might spread across the torsos. But if you fire 1 shot at a time, and truly snipe with 1 gun at a time, you would see PP at infinite range.

THey make LBX and SRM so spready they arent worth a **** at 2 inches, much less "optimal range".

[Kuritaclan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 February 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

The spread on LBX and SRMs is way to goddamn high, I somehow doubt anyone proposing a CoF is talking about a spread that high. I know I am talking about nothing more then somethng that would cause your 6 gun alpha strike at 1000m to hit all corners of the mech, closer then that, it might spread across the torsos. But if you fire 1 shot at a time, and truly snipe with 1 gun at a time, you would see PP at infinite range.

THey make LBX and SRM so spready they arent worth a **** at 2 inches, much less "optimal range".

Well. You do see the problem of srm or lbx implementation. However you think it will be something else with cof for alphas. Harr Harr.

Anyway If i wanna snipe with 2 erll or 4 erll on a 1000m away side torso, because i know it is open i wanna do it when the mech peak out to kill him and not that i get killed because he gauss on me. For example. If i need 2 or 4 times to do it, he returned in the same time 4 bullets into me. And this isn't the way i wanna play the game.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 February 2016 - 07:29 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

[/url]
I'm not sold into your ideas (and those who are with you). Since i like to stick to the idea of a sim. And for this lasers don't suffer any cof or convergence problems. Period. Cof is a problem of ballistics and unguided missiles and so on. But those weapons don't cause "big" problems in the game for now beside maybe some uac boating on dires/kgc which are counterweight by the chassi performance.

Pinpoint damage is a problem with ALL weapon system outside of missiles and LBX. We have too much damage hitting one point. To promptly ignore the most effective solution because of your own misguided assumptions on what can or cannot be inaccurate is foolish. Gameplay trumps realism, my proposal has made up enough of a "realistic" reason to justify it anyway. Laser can only fire straight if the Targeting Computer can return a perfect firing solution.

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

Do you ever shot from a kgc or dire or jm two ac20s with a lead on a running target? most time you don't have convergance in front of this targets becaus -> so you mostly hit with only one projectile. however if you now add up cof into it. the one who acutally hit and the other can with a big enough angle of the cof radius hit or miss bove. That is pure nonsense to me. It punishes on top of eating a high heat peanlity for firing two ac20. Those are the problems i for example have with cof.

I do run King Crabs, and I do get annoyed at the cross eyed ways shots go sometimes. However, this isn't a CoF problem, it's problem with the KGCs ridiculously wide arms and how convergence works there. It's not a problem that can be solved without breaking convergence for everyone else. The issue could be lessened somewhat by increasing the projectile speed for AC20's so that you don't have to lead as much. Weapon location has no bearing whatsoever on any CoF solution, but is relevant for those asking for fixed / no /partial convergence (which are all terrible for their own reasons)

Anyhow individuals weapons can be balanced by adjusting their load on the CPU, and the maximum spread is easily adjustable depending on player feedback. Ideally the spread will be such that you wouldn't completely miss your target, but the chances of all the shots hitting the same component are lowered. The choice you get as a player is "do I shoot with both now and maybe deal lots of damage" or "do I shoot them one at a time and hit where I want to". Trigger discipline is a skill. Shooting everything at once isn't.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 09 February 2016 - 08:00 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

Pinpoint damage is a problem with ALL weapon system outside of missiles and LBX. We have too much damage hitting one point. To promptly ignore the most effective solution because of your own misguided assumptions on what can or cannot be inaccurate is foolish. Gameplay trumps realism, my proposal has made up enough of a "realistic" reason to justify it anyway. Laser can only fire straight if the Targeting Computer can return a perfect firing solution.

Pinpoint is no problem with PPCs - heat issues and velocity. It is no problem with ACs and UACs it is no problem with Gauss after only 2 are allowed. You are disinforming to "promote your misguided assuptions". And even lasers are strongly influenced by heat.

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

I do run King Crabs, and I do get annoyed at the cross eyed ways shots go sometimes. However, this isn't a CoF problem, it's problem with the KGCs ridiculously wide arms and how convergence works there. It's not a problem that can be solved without breaking convergence for everyone else. The issue could be lessened somewhat by increasing the projectile speed for AC20's so that you don't have to lead as much. Weapon location has no bearing whatsoever on any CoF solution, but is relevant for those asking for fixed / no /partial convergence (which are all terrible for their own reasons)

If you drive those mechs was more likely a rhetorical question. Using the velocity of ac 20s is not a good idea, since they actually feel about right in V₀ as a simulation. And cof would only ad up another problem level with those type of weapon placements on chassis.

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

Anyhow individuals weapons can be balanced by adjusting their load on the CPU, and the maximum spread is easily adjustable depending on player feedback. Ideally the spread will be such that you wouldn't completely miss your target, but the chances of all the shots hitting the same component are lowered.

I'm not sold into your idea of the targeting computer. Because of logical reasons. Who acutally would design a target computer that is so bad and can't handle the calculations. Thats like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

The choice you get as a player is "do I shoot with both now and maybe deal lots of damage" or "do I shoot them one at a time and hit where I want to". Trigger discipline is a skill. Shooting everything at once isn't.

What it is for the same reason with ghost heat. You may can shoot 2 times 2 rounds of ac 20 at the same time. But after that you are trapped in the heat zone, where you can not shoot even if the moment would be perfect. As it stands in prolonged brawl and so on the heat is enough of a barrier to prevent alphas too often. And for range fights with peak a boo. Well if the community decides to play that game with cool downs in between - the better sniper has to win.

Stop advocating cof as a solution, It isn't a solution at all. It's a bad work around on a problem that barely exists. If you get alphaed down from 5 mechs you run into you have to die that quickly. In 1 vs 1 Situations the TTK is somewhat ok. If you wanna extend it go for solutions that does not introduce RNGesus.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

Trigger discipline is a skill. Shooting everything at once isn't.

And Skill this game lacks......

Heat management? Just having to keep it below 100% is not heat management
Fire discipline? yeah, you basically said that.
Group tactics? cover fire, suppression fire? yeah this game has none of that.
Target identification, lanes of fire, none of that. This game is so cluster ****** its just deathball, spam the fire button. its why this game has such a high Friendly fire issue, no one cares, everyone just fires like mad....

This game needs more skill based mechanics...

[Troutmonkey]

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

Pinpoint is no problem with PPCs - heat issues and velocity. It is no problem with ACs and UACs it is no problem with Gauss after only 2 are allowed. You are disinforming to "promote your misguided assuptions". And even lasers are strongly influenced by heat.

What it is for the same reason with ghost heat. You may can shoot 2 times 2 rounds of ac 20 at the same time. But after that you are trapped in the heat zone, where you can not shoot even if the moment would be perfect. As it stands in prolonged brawl and so on the heat is enough of a barrier to prevent alphas too often. And for range fights with peak a boo. Well if the community decides to play that game with cool downs in between - the better sniper has to win.

Stop advocating cof as a solution, It isn't a solution at all. It's a bad work around on a problem that barely exists. If you get alphaed down from 5 mechs you run into you have to die that quickly. In 1 vs 1 Situations the TTK is somewhat ok. If you wanna extend it go for solutions that does not introduce RNGesus.

Many of the weapons that have been fixed wouldn't have needed to be done as such if there was CoF in the first place. The gauss limit wouldn't be needed if CoF stopped 3+ from hitting the same component. The same applies to PPCs which weren't fixed by Ghost Heat and had to be nerfed so hard that they are completely useless in singleton and without good quirks. Ghost Heat barely addresses the issue and can be worked around by mixing different classes of lasers or a by using a combination of lasers and autocannons. Lasers' pin point accuracy is why they are the meta right now, even with higher heat. The biggest problem with using heat as the only balancing mechanic is that it doesn't stop the pin point from happening, it just punishes the firer after - the target still takes pin point damage. Prevention is better than punishment.

CoF doesn't prevent better players from winning in a sniper fight. The player with the better aim will still hit more often. Peaking over a ridge with 2 CERLLs, 4 CERMLs and an CUAC10 and firing whatever damage into 1 pixel isn't skill. It's also not very fun and there's not a lot you can do about it on the receiving end. Sure you can twist but you're not really spread damage so much as deciding which part you're going to let them blow of.

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

I'm not sold into your idea of the targeting computer. Because of logical reasons. Who acutally would design a target computer that is so bad and can't handle the calculations. Thats like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Maybe good computers are LosTech? Who knows, who cares. It's a made up reason to justify a balancing mechanic. Just like Battletech has made up reasons for the use of giant robots over just using more high tech tanks. Stop trying to put apply logic or realism arguments to Battletech or MechWarrior because it really has no place at all.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 09 February 2016 - 09:35 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

Many of the weapons that have been fixed wouldn't have needed to be done as such if there was CoF in the first place. The gauss limit wouldn't be needed if CoF stopped 3+ from hitting the same component. Ghost Heat barely addresses the issue and can be worked around by mixing different classes of lasers or a by using a combination of lasers and autocannons. Lasers' pin point accuracy is why they are the meta right now, even with higher heat. The biggest problem with using heat as the only balancing mechanic is that it doesn't stop the pin point from happening, it just punishes the firer after - the target still takes pin point damage. Prevention is better than punishment.

I didn't say it is perfect. But at least it is predictable.

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

CoF doesn't prevent better players from winning in a sniper fight.

Exactly this is the outcome of COF - by chance you win by chance you loss the exchange. No f**** RNG.

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

The player with the better aim will still hit more often.

That is no excuse.

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

Peaking over a ridge with 2 CERLLs, 4 CERMLs and an CUAC10 and firing whatever damage into 1 pixel isn't skill. It's also not very fun and there's not a lot you can do about it on the receiving end. Sure you can twist but you're not really spread damage so much as deciding which part you're going to let them blow of.

Your szenario lacks credibility.

1.) You never hold your aim that steady
2.) The enemy never hold still.
3.) The burn time of ERLLs and ERMLs are diffrent - to apply the damage full you have to hold still - what will not happen if you are under enemy fire
4.) ACs are influence by simulated gravity - so nopp they do not hit the same pixel as the laser do.
5.) Since ACs and a couple other weapons have different velocities the impact on moving targets which do not go straight will be asynchronous and theirfor by nature a cof if you fire them as a Alpha.

And because all of this there is no Alpha Warrior online. It only applies to idiots who run straight into enemies. And those i do not need to help with adding sensless cof spread.

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

Maybe good computers are LosTech? Who knows, who cares. It's a made up reason to justify a balancing mechanic.

And there we go with the usual LosTech Argument.

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

Stop trying to put apply logic or realism arguments to Battletech or MechWarrior because it really has no place at all.

I won't because that is the reason of a sim in first place. Otherwise i would play pony farm.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 February 2016 - 09:43 PM.

[Ratpoison]

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

CoF doesn't prevent better players from winning in a sniper fight. The player with the better aim will still hit more often.

Incorrect, if you flip two stacks of ten coins, the chances are that one will have more heads than the other. CoF is not a solution to the current alpha problem which stems from LASERS, not convergence. No other weapon system gets so much benefit for so little tradeoff thanks to power creep, and that's where the problem is. CoF will NOT solve this problem.

[Troutmonkey]

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

I didn't say it is perfect. But at least it is predictable.

But it isn't intuitive. It's arbitrary and as can be professed by all the laser but and "OMG laser meta" threads going around it's far from a comprehensive solution. CoF mechanics can be found in nearly all FPS, and is easy for new and old players alike.
It's like saying that I should be able to rapid fire 50 cal snipers from the hip with perfect accuracy because anything else would be a nerf to skill.

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

And there we go with the usual LosTech Argument.

Hey, don't look at me. If it's a good enough reason for Battletech to explain away why "Long" range missile can only shoot 1km, then it's a good enough reason for me to use. The main point is that I don't actually need a lore reason for this mechanic. It's a game, it has an issue with part of it's game play, and this solves that. Gameplay trumps lore / realism.

Kuritaclan, on 09 February 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

I won't because that is the reason of a sim in first place. Otherwise i would play pony farm.

This isn't a sim. It's an arena based multiplayer shooter with Mechs. It's an arcade game far more than it is a sim.