85 replies to this topic

[Surn]

This is why certain groups which I could name left the clan side en masse and attempted to troll PGI to get the IS weapon ranges nerfed.

The ONLY map which is competitive in CW between clans and IS is Boreal Vault due to our range mechs and tactics vs the clan deathball.

Here is an example, that this is the only map which is a problem for the large clan teams to stomp IS on.


Which is exactly why it SHOULD NOT be nerfed. IS teams have worked hard to develop the technical advantage into a defensible strategy. There are counter strategies, but to nerf the IS laser ranges purely to ensure clan mechs are OP in all areas is outrageous. It is an insult to every player in the game.

We do not have a game if one side is just superior in all areas!

Edited by MechregSurn, 09 February 2016 - 09:54 PM.

[Der Hesse]

MechregSurn, on 09 February 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

This is why certain groups which I could name left the clan side en masse and attempted to troll PGI to get the IS weapon ranges nerfed.

The ONLY map which is competitive in CW between clans and IS is Boreal Vault due to our range mechs and tactics vs the clan deathball.

Here is an example, that this is the only map which is a problem for the large clan teams to stomp IS on.

Which is exactly why it SHOULD NOT be nerfed. IS teams have worked hard to develop the technical advantage into a defensible strategy. There are counter strategies, but to nerf the IS laser ranges purely to ensure clan mechs are OP in all areas is outrageous. It is an insult to every player in the game.

We do not have a game if one side is just superior in all areas!

Nice screenshot.
Be prepared to see the well known names to show up here and refute your view with unproven assertions and false pretences.
Maybe you will even get reported for that trolling statement and the thread deleted. Mine regarding this issue was restored after protesting. We will see what happens to yours.

[Rushin Roulette]

In other words you were relying on long range sniping alone and do not have any good strategies for any non Boreal vault map? Sounds like a legit argument (and this is coming from an IS player here).

Each map has its tactics that work and others that dont, no matter if you are clan or IS. Sniping is rarely any tactic at all if you are clan or IS.

[Surn]

Rushin,

So because you haven't figured out the team movement and tactics that allow sniping to be viable...sniping shouldn't be a thing?

Sorry, but there is one map, where 3 or so IS mechs have a erll advantage. It is literally the Only IS advantage in the game.

Taking that away just makes this game worthless because clan mechs will simply be better in all areas, eliminating all strategy considerations.

[Rushin Roulette]

Ummm... where did I write that I the teams I play with have not figured out tactics on Boreal Vault? Your screenshot is of all maps lost except for Boreal, hence my comment about only relying on snipers.
How about I post a screenshot where the FRR is attacking clans and all maps are either in our favour or close to it so that the planet is about to be flipped?

Playing snipey games in CW is a waste of tonnage and only helps your opponents focus the poor 9-10 souls you have abandoned infornt of you who are facing a force of 12 mechs. They will be easily focused down and one they have all been killed off 4 times it will be the turn of the snipers to be spawncamped.

Snipers may get high damage scores, but tactically they are a waste and do not help their team when it is needed. Any experienced players will just ignore them and mop them up at the end or take random potshots/set Artillers strikes to drive them into cover.

Btw, if you are so obsessed with sniping as being the only way to win against the clans.. why are you not winning on Emerald Taiga (same mountain style defence position at the back as Boreal), Sulphurous Rift (nice sniping positions in the exits to the spawn areas) and Hellbore Springs (The V shaped mountain next to the counterattack Omega site where mechs can stand either side and peek over)?

Hence you should have clearly won that planet with 4 out of 6 maps in your favour? Why only one?

[B0oN]

"... clan mechs will simply be better in all areas"

Excuse me, Sir, but do you even play the game ? Your argument up there regarding IS mechs and their "perceived weakness" sounds incredible ignorant , for instance the glory of a 12man BlackLas push easily shows that Clans can be beaten in closerange racing brawls .
8 Firestarters with 4 ECM Spiders and off you go, killing stuff left´n roight .
12 Assaults (Atlants,Banhees, Stalkers) holding a base, now thats some hardcore-to-defeat opposition with all the quirking that has been done.
Fancy a poking game ? Bring 12 mechs wielding lasers and win most trades (isay most with the prerequisit that you know what to do in a poking-match), just because of the IS-favoring burntimes, their top-class heatmanagement-capabilities, HSR, etc. etc.
Fancy dakka ? Bring all the Ilya´s an Jaegrmechs and BJ´s and Centies and Miseries and and and
Fancy sniping ? Bring BLR´s, BJ´s, Gauss-Phracts and Jaegrs, CDA´s and and and

Th only thing clanmechs have left as defense against all that is their average of a slightly higher speed across the single most used mechclass, namely the heavies .
Clans havent got single-shell AC´s and ultra-short burntime lasers . The IS scrubs saw to the burntimes .
Clans havent got giant laservomit alphas anymore . The IS scrubs saw to that -
Clans havent got a range advantage anymore . The IS scrubs saw to that
Clans have just got a minor mobility advantage . IS scrubs are taking a look at that .

Funny how a mercenary needs to teach you your own battlemechs ... maybe start reading those highly interesting quirk lists, because I´m very sure there is many good mechs to be fielded that are literally easymode in their quirked-out easymode anti-glory .

Mechreg, I really thought you had better insight into this quite easily analysable game, but thanks for clearing up my misconception about you .

Case closed .
#readingquirklistsissuperfluous
#CLAMSOP!NERFPLOX!
#ISsaltminesareneverending

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 10 February 2016 - 04:51 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

sorry but as a tier 4 player I have about the same win rate playing Clan against IS as I do playing IS against Clan.

playing with a competent group and working together is far more of a factor in win/loss than the Mech you are using.

[Rushin Roulette]

Rad Hanzo, on 10 February 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

Th only thing clanmechs have left as defense against all that is their average of a slightly higher speed across the single most used mechclass, namely the heavies .
Clans havent got single-shell AC´s and ultra-short burntime lasers . The IS scrubs saw to the burntimes .
Clans havent got giant laservomit alphas anymore . The IS scrubs saw to that -
Clans havent got a range advantage anymore . The IS scrubs saw to that
Clans have just got a minor mobility advantage . IS scrubs are taking a look at that .

Sheesh, kind of overreacting on your side as well.

• Single AC shells was never a part of the clan repertoir (They have even been buffed in the past as they used to shoot out more shells than they do now)
  
• Laservomit was a stale gameplay, be happy that it is gone and you get more variety in the clan playstyles, some builds have even turned out to be better than the old laserpuke
  
• Clans have overall nearly the same range as IS currently, but this is being toned down with the next patch, where clans will have the deffinitive advantage again. Sniping will still be a dumb way to abandon your team even after the patch though.
  
• The clans still have an absolutely staggering mobility advantage over the IS. All mechs still move at roughly the same speed (bar the ACH and DWF of course) which makes team movement coordination much, much easier. Dont forget that the mobility nerfs from the skill tree hit all IS mechs equally as well, so blaming the IS for that is not true. If you are talking about speed and heat from XL torso destruction... clan mechs with a destroyed XL torso are still more mobile and have better heat management than IS XL mechs with a destroyed side torso .

[Koshirou]

Rushin Roulette, on 10 February 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Clans have overall nearly the same range as IS currently, but this is being toned down with the next patch, where clans will have the deffinitive advantage again. Sniping will still be a dumb way to abandon your team even after the patch though.

You mean they have better range for almost every single weapon, right?

[Rushin Roulette]

Yes, the weapons have longer ranges for the clans. there is no denying that. However, the current quirks on the meta IS mechs give them similar ranges (some still slightly shorter, some longer).
There is no point in comparing only weapons or only mechs between IS and Clan, you need to compare the combination of mechs and weapons to get a realistic comparisson. Even then you are still leaving out many other important aspects such as mobility, heat discipation or cap, space, sizes, hardpoints etc...

Comparing clans to IS is extremely difficult and I think the current balance is extremely close (especially if you compare it to older MW titles where it was always a race to get the Clan tech and you would hardly ever tough IS tech again after that point).

EDIT: I predict that the next "balancing" attempt will once again tip the scales strongly in favour of the clans as PGI have once again done the same mistake as ever... buff one side and simultaneously nerf the other.
They should either leave the IS quirks as they are and buffed(unnerfed) the clan mechs or tone down the IS quirks but leave the clan mechs untouched... but this way is once again proving their ham handed approach to balancing questions by compounding any changes they make.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 10 February 2016 - 06:14 AM.

[habu86]

MechregSurn, on 09 February 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

The ONLY map which is competitive in CW between clans and IS is Boreal Vault due to our range mechs and tactics vs the clan deathball.

Alternative interpretation of what happened there: no organized teams dropped on Boreal and the pugs attacking the map couldn't muster the pushes they needed. Simply put, pushing on Boreal can be tough, especially if trying to push against an ERLL firing line manned by people who can actually shoot. There's enough open ground in the channels that accurate focused fire is going to tear at least one poor sucker to shreds, regardless of the technology base used to do so.

By the same token, there are plenty of viable counters available, but the problem is that you need to coordinate the entire 12-man in order to implement them.

ERLL spam, regardless of tech base, while significantly more dangerous than LRMs, ultimately falls under the same category in CW, that is, aggravating and concern-inducing, but ultimately very situational. Additionally, the upcoming range nerf is overhyped, IMO. 10% generic energy is more than enough for long range sniper work, I think. When building my sniper mechs, if they have at least 10% generic energy range, the next thing i'm looking for is hardpoint placement, burn time, heat gen, and structure quirks.

Honestly, when playing clans in CW, my top three concerns are:
1.) IS wave 1 and 2 tonnage shock (i.e. 6 or more 90+ tonners per wave) with pinpoint DPS (i.e. 4x UAC5/ 6xAC2/ 3-4x LPL) loadouts - especially on attack, where we WILL be funneled into chokepoints and where my life expectancy is somewhere in the 5-10 second range when leading a push into such a firing line.
2.) Pinpoint laservomit big heavies and small assaults with very short burn times (i.e. GHR, WHM, BKT, and BLR), along with the TDR "golden standard".
3.) The nigh-unkillable Blackjacks and very tough Quickdraws that start showing up from wave 2 onwards.

IS ERLL spam is, by comparison, pretty far down the list of things I worry about.

Edited by habu86, 10 February 2016 - 06:57 AM.

[DivineEvil]

If you have a premade team attacking (which is always the case because solo-players never actually initiate invasions in CW), and the only sectors premade team cannot win on, are the ones on Boreal Vault, this is actually a great example of how Energy Range quirks are broken.

I can argue with Clan players about viability of their weapons all day long, but in case of OP's argument, it is ultimately self-defeating.

[Rogue Jedi]

DivineEvil, on 10 February 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

If you have a premade team attacking (which is always the case because solo-players never actually initiate invasions in CW), and the only sectors premade team cannot win on, are the ones on Boreal Vault, this is actually a great example of how Energy Range quirks are broken.

but IS premades can win on Boreal, I have done it many times, usualy against other units, just damage the enemy Mechs and kill the turrets first wave, kill them all on the second or third and you get 30+ seconds to take down the gens and omega, if that fails have fast lights ready for the last wave to finish off omega, it works more often than not, yes we are usualy way down on numbers but we win.

that only fails if the enemy are significantly better than us, in fact that tactic seems easiest to pull off on Borieal, and works as both Clan and IS.

[Der Hesse]

DivineEvil, on 10 February 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

If you have a premade team attacking (which is always the case because solo-players never actually initiate invasions in CW), and the only sectors premade team cannot win on, are the ones on Boreal Vault, this is actually a great example of how Energy Range quirks are broken.

I can argue with Clan players about viability of their weapons all day long, but in case of OP's argument, it is ultimately self-defeating.

So far many of your posts were understandable and often enough not too far from reality, but this one is just not right.

There are many Clan solos attacking IS planets. If that wasn´t true i would not play CW atm. Especially when i drop in defense against Wolf and Falcon there are 1/3 of the matches pure pugs or just small premades on clan side.

On IS side you would be more right because i never saw an IS pug/solo group attack a Clan planet, so it will be at least a rare event.

Also Clans can win on boreal. It´s just that more likely that IS can defend there. That´s all i can read out of MechregSurn´s post. He even only said they got a problem there. He didn´t say it was impossible.

[DivineEvil]

Der Hesse, on 10 February 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

There are many Clan solos attacking IS planets. If that wasn´t true i would not play CW atm. Especially when i drop in defense against Wolf and Falcon there are 1/3 of the matches pure pugs or just small premades on clan side.

Solos are always the follow-up to the premades. There's is no such a type of person, who would just think "maybe I can start an invasion on this planet all by myself". It is true, that many solo-players join the invasion, but more often than not they're detrimental to an operation, and it all comes down to level of cooperation, perhaps even more than the actual skill. With present comparison between IS and Clan mechs, I would not trust, that Clan solos has better chances than IS solos - both has roughly equal chances. Unless, ofcourse, there's a cooperation going, that is not reflected merely by capture status.

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On IS side you would be more right because i never saw an IS pug/solo group attack a Clan planet, so it will be at least a rare event.

Same is true for Clans. Without an outside cooperation, solos initiating a 0/0 planet into action is highly unlikely.

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Also Clans can win on boreal. It´s just that more likely that IS can defend there. That´s all i can read out of MechregSurn´s post. He even only said they got a problem there. He didn´t say it was impossible.

I'm not arguing against that. IS can defend anywhere, but it takes specific mechs, which Clans do not need to bother about with Omni-pod system. In the end it can come down to IS pugs simply using Trial mechs, that has nothing to do with efficient CW gameplay.

I don't argue that much over where people can defend or can't. I just argue, that showing such a metric in CW invasion shows how far the difference a Energy Range quirks produce. I honestly do not care for it's role in Clan/IS balance, because by itself getting an additional 35% energy makes ER LLs more efficient sniper weapons, than Gauss. This is invalid from the raw weapon balance stance and, accounting for other base stats of a weapon and other potential bonuses from quirks, brings it close to the DRG-1N 50% AC/5s cooldown rates of the past.

There's no tactics and no cooperation needed when you have modifiers like these persisting in the game - they're naturally forcing people into abusing them, which leads to stagnation and predictibility of gameplay, the same way it was with Clans and their Gauss+Laser wombo-combo. Reducing the Energy Range quirks is an attempt to break the obvious trend, not the response to an outcry. It might actually help IS players with defending other sectors, because they'd no longer be able to blindly rely on these quirks on maps, where it isn't as beneficial as on Boreal Vault.

Again, I look at Energy Range quirks in the framework of general balance - it's effects on IS/Clan relations do not concern me. I only hope, that affected variants will recieve something as compensation for range reduction. If not, then no s**t, we have a major problem.

[Koshirou]

Rushin Roulette, on 10 February 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:

Yes, the weapons have longer ranges for the clans. there is no denying that. However, the current quirks on the meta IS mechs give them similar ranges (some still slightly shorter, some longer).

Unless I'm mistaken and smurfy's data are obsolete: Not really. Even with a 25% quirk, all IS pulse lasers are outranged by their Clan equivalents, and the SL and ML are outranged (as far as effective range is concerned, considerably so) by the corresponding Clan ER sizes.

Of course there is a handful of light IS Mechs with higher than 25% energy range quirks. But I doubt that people think of the likes of the LCT-1M or the SDR-5V when they complain about the allegedly unbalanced IS MetaMechs.

Speaking of which: This blanket reduction of Energy Range Quirks to 10% is going to affect a total of sixty-eight IS BattleMechs, most of them lights and mediums, and the vast majority of them generally not considered especially powerful. Even if one supposed a problem exists with IS ER LL sniping, I still do not see how any rational person could consider the reduction of quirks on dozens of Mechs, with unforseeable repercussions for overall balancing, to be a preferable approach to simply reducing the range of the IS ER LL.

I'm sorry to say, but this looks like another concept haphazardly put forward by PGI, who were likely egged on by "community" advisers attempting to push their poorly thought out pet ideas.

Edited by Koshirou, 10 February 2016 - 09:10 AM.

[habu86]

Koshirou, on 10 February 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

Unless I'm mistaken and smurfy's data are obsolete: Not really. Even with a 25% quirk, all IS pulse lasers are outranged by their Clan equivalents, and the SL and ML are outranged (as far as effective range is concerned, considerably so) by the corresponding Clan ER sizes.

Of course there is a handful of light IS Mechs with higher than 25% energy range quirks. But I doubt that people think of the likes of the LCT-1M or the SDR-5V when they complain about the allegedly unbalanced IS MetaMechs.

Speaking of which: This blanket reduction of Energy Range Quirks to 10% is going to affect a total of sixty-eight IS BattleMechs, most of them lights and mediums, and the vast majority of them generally not considered especially powerful. Even if one supposed a problem exists with IS ER LL sniping, I still do not see how any rational person could consider the reduction of quirks on dozens of Mechs, with unforseeable repercussions for overall balancing, to be a preferable approach to simply reducing the range of the IS ER LL.

Yes, IS pulse lasers are generally outranged (and outdamaged, for that matter) by their clan counterparts, regardless of the range quirks they get. The balancing aspect, however, comes from a combination of lower burn times and heat generation in the weapons themselves, as well as the higher heat capacity and additional durability of the platforms they are mounted on. If you're IS and boating pulse lasers, the key has always been to close to (near) optimal range (which is an art in and of itself), dump pinpoint alphas on individual mech components, and immediately torso twist in order to spread your clan opponent's return fire.

The across-board energy range reduction could be countered with the reintroduction of some limited specific quirks (e.g. pulse or std laser range quirks) to make up for some of the lost ground. The key, of course, is to avoid a situation like we had before the latest balance pass, where mechs would be forcibly shoehorned into some very specific builds in order to optimize quirk usage.

Regardless of the solution that will ultimately be implemented, one thing will not change: the winner will often be the pilot who can force an engagement on terms that favor his or her platform and avoid screwing up long enough to drop the red dorito. It held true before the current balance pass, it holds true now, and it will still hold true even after the upcoming changes.

Edited by habu86, 10 February 2016 - 09:58 AM.

[Surn]

habu86, on 10 February 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

Regardless of the solution that will ultimately be implemented, one thing will not change: the winner will often be the pilot who can force an engagement on terms that favor his or her platform and avoid screwing up long enough to drop the red dorito. It held true before the current balance pass, it holds true now, and it will still hold true even after the upcoming changes.

Thank you for making my point again. Ton for Ton there will be absolutely no engagement terms that favor IS mechs.

Consider, is there even one IS mech that is the best mech at its tonnage? Maybe if there is no clan mech at that tonnage, consider the same even with a 5 ton difference, are there any 70 ton IS mechs that are better than all 65 ton Clan mechs (for example)?

The answer, I contend, after this nerf will be absolutely none, even with a 5 ton skew. Game broken.

Edited by MechregSurn, 11 February 2016 - 09:47 AM.

[Surn]

Rogue Jedi, on 10 February 2016 - 04:54 AM, said:

sorry but as a tier 4 player I have about the same win rate playing Clan against IS as I do playing IS against Clan.

playing with a competent group and working together is far more of a factor in win/loss than the Mech you are using.

The drop leader needs tactics that can lead to victory for you to have a competent group.

A large part of that equation is understanding what strengths and weaknesses comprise the team. My argument is that there will be NO inherent advantages to exploit for IS leaders, thus crushing teamplay.

IS mechs used to be better assaults and lights, no longer the case.
IS mechs used to be better brawlers, no longer the case.
IS mechs used to be cooler, but with less firepower.... no longer the case and still have less firepower.
IS dropdecks had a significant tonnage advantage, no longer the case.

At the moment, the only advantage to exploit is range in a couple very narrow situations.... soon to no longer be the case.

Edited by MechregSurn, 11 February 2016 - 09:47 AM.

[DivineEvil]

MechregSurn, on 10 February 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

IS mechs used to be better assaults and lights, no longer the case.

False. Direwolf and Warhawk were considered go-to assaults for a very long time. Now I see Warhawk just as good as Stalker, and Direwolf just as good as the King Crab. Same is true for Lights - with present weapon balance, competetive units are just as likely to pick a Firestarter as a Cheetah, and more likely to choose Oxide or Huginn over an Adder of any description.

Quote

IS mechs used to be better brawlers, no longer the case.

Empty claim. Cease or substantiate.

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IS mechs used to be cooler, but with less firepower.... no longer the case and still have less firepower.

Complete nonsense.

Quote

IS dropdecks had a significant tonnage advantage, no longer the case.

IS had the advantage when clans had power advantage. No longer the case.

Quote

At the moment, the only advantage to exploit is range in a couple very narrow situations.... soon to no longer be the case.

Eventually you'll have to realize there's just no more clear advantages to exploit. That's it. Make a tactical decision, choose appropriate loadouts for the drop-deck, execute. Stop clinging to stupid mentality of advantages, a.k.a. abusing OP stuff.