85 replies to this topic

[Auton]

What should really happen is:
1. All Quirks removed from all mechs
2. Clan get 10 Pilots while IS get 12 (2 Stars vs. 3 Lances) in CW

That should balance the Clan weapons, speed and durability with the Quantity of IS mechs

[Surn]

The 10v12 thing wont happen, but clan group players want their advantages in all areas to ensure they don't lose to IS mechs. Some fall back on lore, but really lore has little to do with balance in MWO.
I would say tonnage could balance some of the issues, but unless IS mechs have strengths compared to clan mechs, tonnage is just going to buff the clan damage scores. Some of their teams are now looking for players to score 3,000 or 4,000 in CW matches. Tonnage only matters if it opens up new strategies due to tactical advantages.

Edited by MechregSurn, 17 February 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[2fast2stompy]

MechregSurn, on 17 February 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Some of their teams are now looking for players to score 3,000 or 4,000 in CW matches.

So you're telling me each IS mech in CW tanks 750 to 1000 damage before going down? PGI pls nerf

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

habu86, on 10 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

1. Laser brawling with medium lasers (both standard and pulse), and large pulse lasers - the combination of structure, burn time, and heat gen quirks, as well as the higher heat capacity of IS Double Heatsinks gives IS a clear advantage here - the only real clan counter to this is heavy dakka+srm, which turns the whole thing into a DPS contest and which muddies comparisons between weapon weights, ranges, etc.

Except you compare same sizes which is a special sort of crime on itself. Clans got three options against IS med lasers:
1)Roflstomp IS with their cERM because cERM IS 1-ton slightly-less-powerful IS LL that also stacks in 6-packs.
2)Overpower and outrange IS with medpulses that hit like truck and got sensible duration.
3)Get closer (Is an option with mobility advantage) and beat IS in heat war with massed small lasers.

habu86, on 10 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

2. Long range laser sniping contests with ERLL, especially in the higher weight categories where clan mechs are knuckle draggers, while IS weapons of choice have high-mounted hard points and structure quirks. FYI, IS ERLL range + 10% generic energy range quirk comes out to 740 optimal range before modules. With modules included, cERLL ekes out a whole 4 meters more optimal range. TCOMPs can squeeze a bit more, but with their current stats, the wisdom of bringing anything bigger than TCOMP I is debatable. Essentially, for the weapons, it comes down to lighter, higher alpha, hotter, and longer burn vs. heavier and bigger, cooler, lower alpha, and shorter burn (for roughly equivalent burntime DPS). The issue then moves to the platforms' durability and hardpoint location.

So, IS need quirked mech just to get range simply MATCHED to clan. For rather inferior system in the first place. With Clans having better damage per beam AND per second (yes, 9/1.25 = 7.2, 11/1.5=7.3). Then, clans got better BASE range and that means that they'll get more bang from any extra stretch.
Also, clans got another ridiculous option of going a bit closer to make use of LPLs to trade with IS ERLs. And 45% more bang with actually superior burns start to hurt. A LOT.

habu86, on 10 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

3. Medium-caliber balistics (i.e. AC5/UAC5) are, in my opinion, better on IS than clan at them moment due to a combination of ballistic quirks (especially cooldowns) and lack of shell spread for IS UACs. Additionally IS has a larger number of heavy and assault mechs with sufficient hardpoints to boat these ballistics (i.e. mount 3 or more), whereas the only real clan options to do this are the Ebon Jaguar, which is insanely squishy due to its shape (a very bad thing for a DPS dakka mech), and the Dire Wolf, which is very situational. And, just in case you're planning to counter with high-caliber cUACs, much as I enjoy my 2x UAC10 3xSRM4 Warhawk, I have few illusions of my ability to win a staredown with a 4xUAC5/5xAC5 Mauler unless I manage to get the drop on it and can blow out a leg before it even knows I'm there.

Just because IS ballistics are single shot doesn't mean they don't deviate. They do and that's why many won't bother with AC/20 at all while others will go at SL optimal before shooting one. Not to mention that IS ballistics are EXTREMELY lag-sensitive. I had quite some deaths shouting 2 AC/20 shells in short sequence for no damage simply because game will refuse to register these. Intentionally glitchy hitboxes doesn't help the matter.
Not to mention that Warhawk currently wields some really sick quirks, including IDDQD for your arms and considerable LT structure with fast yaw or, again, IDDQD without fast yaw. RT yields same bonus structure and extra missile/utility quirks.

habu86, on 10 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

4. PPCs. Think of them as energy-based autocannons. Clans' ERPPC splash damage is not, IMO, generally sufficient to overcome the tech base's lack of velocity, heat gen, and cooldown quirks. Nevermind the fact that they don't have access to the regular PPC, with its lower heat. Honestly, if you're looking for a weapon to outrange your opponents after the range nerf, might I recommend IS ERPPC? 10 points of PPFLD at 810 meters unquirked (972 with 10% range quirk and range module), which is roughly on par with a Gauss rifle round at the same range.

Except already mentioned Warhawk gets quirks for his arms, resulting in more velocity AND heat gen. TCs allow you to get up to 35% more velocity as well. Coupled with loads of other bonuses, too.
Or you want to talk about Adder with both considerable heat discount and extra PPC speed? With his flamer now not being a piece of locked equipment?
Non-ER PPCs got nasty flavor of 90m minimal range. Most mechs with bonuses for it permanently forced to go with XL engine, which makes them quite a glass. Yes, you may get some funny thunderbolts with speed of 35kmph shooting up to 10 charges in sequence, but in case of prolonged fire you could use these lasers as well.
Oh, and IS ERPPC is straight inferior to cERPPC. +1slot/ton for -2.5 point damage and -2.5 splash.

Edited by Confirmed Cheater, 27 February 2016 - 07:22 AM.

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

habu86, on 10 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

5. LRMs. Yea, I know, bad weapons, never bring them, all that jazz. But for the sake of this argument, keep in mind that what the IS loses in extra weight, it makes up in missile spread and delivery pattern, which makes them harder to counter and spread damage.

Yes, it makes up in missile spread which makes LRM 20 absolutely useless for everything but punching through AMS systems, it makes up in delivery pattern which disallows you to use LRM in confined spaces, it makes up in minimal range of 180 metres (Making full boating the most stupid option to go). In the mentime, little cutey fox may missile vomit at point blank and range with sufficient ammo despite being 30tonner. Why? Because his LRM10 doesn't weight 5 tons to start with! Oh, did I mentioned he got tighter spread both for LRMs and SRMs?

habu86, on 10 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

6. Light mechs. With the exception of the Jenner IIc, Clan lights are locked into suboptimal engine, JJ, and heatsink configurations, leaving their tonnage usage in a horribly suboptimal place by comparison.

Yes, that would be a tragedy… if it wasn't for the fact that these slow lights are now quirked harder than any IS ever been while Cheater posessing 7.5 tons after armor and too good to throw away ECM. All with respectable speed of 130kmph.
Stripping arms from armor allows for dual cERLL. WIthout it, you may opt for 6 SPL, 6SL with good heat, rather ridiculous (but hilariously capable) ERML peek boy or 4SL, 2SRM4 ECM'd jumper.
Yes, IS got some tricks in the sleeve. Locust that spontaneously goes boom. Commando which got extremely responsive hitboxes. Firestarters which got alternative walking profile, thus making them easier to aim for despite being lights. Oh, and Oxide which is a hero mech

[Celtic Warrior]

You had me laughing at... Wait for it... The title! My black nights and Tbolts wreck clan mechs. 7 med pulse lasers that can alpha 6 times minimum against heat restricted clan mechs is a joke.

Stop the whine already its old and overdone.

[Lugh]

MechregSurn, on 10 February 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

Rushin,

So because you haven't figured out the team movement and tactics that allow sniping to be viable...sniping shouldn't be a thing?

Sorry, but there is one map, where 3 or so IS mechs have a erll advantage. It is literally the Only IS advantage in the game.

Taking that away just makes this game worthless because clan mechs will simply be better in all areas, eliminating all strategy considerations.

You are quite clearly wrong as the mass exodus to IS mechs in the Merc units (228, MercStar) demonstrates that IS is currently easy mode.

Even after the nerf they have not immediately switched contracts in a huff back to clan side. So which do you think is better?

That'd be IS. Still.

Learn to build mechs. learn to teach tactics and strategy in pug matchs or join a unit with good coms. Then see suddenly how your woes disappear.

[Surn]

Just as predicted, IS pilots are leaving this game in droves. You destroyed the balance of this game...well done.

[Surn]

Lugh, there aren't any players on the IS side, so they have to switch. However they will switch back ASAP to clan when they realize the IS is far inferior now...in all respects.

[Graugger]

Alaric Hasek, on 10 February 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

First of all, IS defending Boreal with an organized group is just a slaughter. It's not even fun. You have 8 'mechs with massive range quirks (Battlemasters, Quickdraws, Cicadas) with 4+ ERLLs standing on a hill 800+ meters from the gates and hitting EVERY enemy 'mech that walks in. The enemy HAS to go into the trench to their left or they get focus-fired down. Clan 'mechs can't return fire due to their long laser burn time (to be fair, IS attackers can't return fire either, because you have 30+ ERLLs hitting them at the same time). If the attackers move too slow (Dire Wolves, for instance) they don't even make it to the trench. I can get off 4-6 ERLL shots with my Quickdraw on a Timber Wolf before it gets under cover, maybe 8 on a Dire Wolf. My team around me can fire at least as many. Whatever is left gets finished off by the Thunderbolts or Black Knights with masses of pulse lasers when the Clan 'mechs come out the other side of the trench. Lots of times I've played this map and not even lost my first 'mech.

You do the exact same range crap with gauss / PPCs / ERLL don't give me that B.S.!
That map is suicide for attackers no matter which side of the mech bay they're on.

[MoJomo]

MechregSurn, on 03 March 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

Lugh, there aren't any players on the IS side, so they have to switch. However they will switch back ASAP to clan when they realize the IS is far inferior now...in all respects.

Hi I doubt you rememebr me but we played sfc unity campaign dynaverse about ten years ago. However you're failing to realize that there are several key IS mech advantages. I will list them so you can remember.

1. Laser Duration. Even without quirks like the blackknight has, the insanely low laser duration makes sphere mechs ridiculously superior to clan mechs when shooting a moving target.
2. Massive structure quirks. Let alone all quirks being superior for sphere side, the enhanced structure of the vast majority of sphere mechs gives them massive survivability and longer staying power than the squish timber wolf.
3. Customization. Unable to swap engine or upgrades, clan mechs are seriously disadvantaged in terms of potential loadouts.

There I've given you plenty to work with to develop a viable strategy. Enjoy!

[Surn]

Mojomo,

Glad to see you again! Were you part of my Romulans? I somehow remember a Borg cube with your name on it?

Anyhow,

1. Laser duration is helpful but in terms of damage per second, clan mechs still win on a vast majority of chassis.
2. Structure quirks without equal weapons aren't an advantage when compared to speed and firepower. That is like saying an oil tanker is a better warship than a destroyer. If IS mechs had equal firepower and speed, it would be an advantage but as it stands...it is just a way for clan players to score more damage with their massive alphas.
3. Customization, clan weapons and hs take up less slots thus allowing for more weapons per chassis. IS xl engines are a disadvantage, and the Speed differential between IS mechs is a disadvantage for team movement. Further, very few IS mechs are as fast as clan mechs...so the speed differential doesn't have any positive aspects for mechs above lights and the IS lights are all inferior to the artic cheater.

[Graugger]

I guess what we really need to do is reduce the range of all IS weapons by 10% and increase their cooldowns by 15%.

[Dawnstealer]

I think it would be cool to dump the weapon quirks (I've talked about other options elsewhere, but won't derail this topic), but bump the structural quirks. IS mechs wouldn't be able to match the damage of the Clan mechs, but they'd be more durable: make it so the time-to-kill for the mechs was roughly the same, but each side has a far different flavor.

Clan mechs could pour out the damage, IS mechs could effectively tank.

This even makes sense lore-wise as many of the IS mechs have been handed down for generations: to survive the brutal Succession Wars that long, they'd HAVE to be well-made. Meanwhile, the Clan mechs just roll off the assembly line fresh. The Clans aren't resource- and tech-starved, so there's less focus on "tanky" mechs and instead more a focus on more elegant, damage-focused mechs.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 04 March 2016 - 12:10 PM.

[Gorgo7]

We should ditch all quirks and in CW split the Factions into two groups.
The Clan gets drop decks for three and the IS get drop decks of four.
Clan gets superior mechs that they love and the IS loyalists get more vehicles which are slower, less powerful, shorter ranged and squishier with an XL.

Balanced!

[Dawnstealer]

Gorgo7, on 04 March 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

We should ditch all quirks and in CW split the Factions into two groups.
The Clan gets drop decks for three and the IS get drop decks of four.
Clan gets superior mechs that they love and the IS loyalists get more vehicles which are slower, less powerful, shorter ranged and squishier with an XL.

Balanced!

Ummmm...I think you're kidding, but I actually DO think that an element that allowed Clan players to drop under-weight, or with fewer mechs, and have that net them more C-Bills or even rewards (maybe a grab-bag feature?) for every 20 tons or 1 less mech they choose to drop with.

You can't really enforce role-playing the Clans in a game like this, but you CAN incentivise it.

[Gorgo7]

Dawnstealer, on 04 March 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

Ummmm...I think you're kidding, but I actually DO think that an element that allowed Clan players to drop under-weight, or with fewer mechs, and have that net them more C-Bills or even rewards (maybe a grab-bag feature?) for every 20 tons or 1 less mech they choose to drop with.

You can't really enforce role-playing the Clans in a game like this, but you CAN incentivise it.

Oh, I'm not kidding. Incentivisation occurs when the clan do more damage and make more cash while the IS get a fair fight.
Only for CW of course. Pug land still would be a Clanners paradise.
Balance would have to revert to an earlier iteration of Clan weapons but that would be fine.
Tonnage could be tweaked of course and would be (of course).
I think that if this is not instituted at some point then PGI is in a boatload of trouble between the Clan that want to OP the IS and feel hurt if they are not, and the resentful IS who hate having to fight a superior Mech on equal tonnage footing.
Ramp up the Clan power and reduce their presence in CW. I think it could go along way to assuring that expensive Clan gear gets used (big money in CW, big prestige Clan gear, extra damage being done vs. IS for cash) Epeen for the clan given the superior mechs and the IS can battle merrily along with a tonnage/numerical superiority.
Hell! The Clans might fight themselves for awhile instead of giving it up and ONLY fighting the IS.

The Federated Suns have left to become Clan since the *unnerf* of Clan gear and the nerfing of IS range bonus.
Getting IS fights is tough in CW. Instead I must go after unbalanced Clans in my IS gear...or change to Clan gear which is very expensive and time consuming.
Adjust CW to meet my proposed critera and all are happy.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

Personally yes I think that the game can be balanced however PGI's View on the term "balanced" is so skewered it's just abysmal

Comp friendly units such as 228,SJR,MS etc are proof that regardless of what side you play a good team is going to have a much higher chance of success. Yes I would agree that the IS is currently easy mode with a number of still over quirked mechs that can tank or be much more heat efficient then it should be leading skilled players to easily drop about 3000+ damage games

I would encourage all of you who haven't to try CW from both sides before commenting, See the difference in tactics the teams use. Personally I think Tonnage is a broken mechanic to be using to balance mechs example a 50 ton hunchback and a 50 ton nova don't pilot the same way despite being the same tonnage. There have been comps that use a Battle value system which is proven and I do believe is a much better way of offering balance to the teams

Of course having 12 mans regularly drop against skittles doesn't help things either and I think the que should be abit smarter about putting groups against each other and pugs against pugs

Edited by Chocowolf, 04 March 2016 - 03:51 PM.

[Surn]

Choco, you are just lying.

It is crystal clear that clan mechs are now ultra easy mode and only a foolish child trying to protect their favorite toy will deny it.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

MechregSurn, on 04 March 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

Choco, you are just lying.

It is crystal clear that clan mechs are now ultra easy mode and only a foolish child trying to protect their favorite toy will deny it.

Lying? Please by all means do correct me here I'm curious to hear it. As I mentioned that is my Personal opinion about it.

It is obviously clear that you do not agree with my opinion but it is just that an opinion nothing more. For me I regularly Score higher on my IS Second account then I do my Clan mechs when I drop CW having more mechs being just flat better.

Edited by Chocowolf, 04 March 2016 - 07:59 PM.