679 replies to this topic

[pyrocomp]

ScarecrowES, on 14 February 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

I'll stick to one of my 3 1000+ damage per match Atlai, thanks. We don't have to try the mech to know it doesn't work. The game's been running for around 3 years now... it's never worked. It won't suddenly start working now.

OP can say the very same 'I don't have to try the mech to know it doesn't work'. The game ran for 3 years and by some miracle there were at least 2 Lurmaggeddons...

Gyrok, on 14 February 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

By default, he has to hide to preserve his mech, or he will take a massive amount of damage in a short amount of time the very second he pops into LoS of direct fire mechs while spewing LRMs.

So in a push with SRMs he will get less damage that with LRMs? How's so? SRMs have armor buffs that are off the discription?

[Deathlike]

VinJade, on 14 February 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

DL I have an idea,
why don't you and the others who hate the build use it for one week and really try to win to see if it is actually such a bad mech?

I bet I will hear 'no' because you might not be skilled enough to use it is my guess.
The OP clearly does well with it, so just because others most likely lack skill at all to be able to use his build in the end doesn't truly make it a bad one just one he can can use well.

*edit to fix spelling errors

It doesn't work.

When I see SJR or 228 or some competent group on the opfor, they will push on me and I don't have the efficient means to retaliate, let alone do anything productive. I become literally what I've explained - cannon fodder.

When I see such a build on the opfor, I'm the Light pilot that loves to torture this kind of ineffective player... with EASE.

pyrocomp, on 14 February 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

You haven't answered the question 'why the heck a single LRM rack on Atlas (or any other mech) automatically makes the pilot a back row coward in your opinion?'. Really, the push with LRMs we will discuss in another thread.

Because, with all that tonnage (in terms of bulk - larger mechs have more armor to play with) allocated in the back, instead of the front, everyone that has less armor is in a worse position because of it. In the optimal case, mechs share armor when they are fighting together - when they are fighting apart, you are creating a series of favorable double teams in which the isolated player tends to lose in. Usually those with less armor (like Mediums in general) are OK if they can deal damage in less armor/tank/brawl based situations. That's how armor works optimally.

Having an Atlas at the very end of a match when there's at least 3v1 almost always disfavours the Atlas in question.

[MeanFacedJohnny]

ScarecrowES, on 14 February 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

You're right... noone needs to be a **** about it... but you're writing this topic because this isn't exactly the first time you've been told you were using a build that was a drain on your team. At this point, it's an issue of you completely ignoring what you're told. And again, totally your right to do that. But if you do, you're going to hear about it. That's a fact.

You then have 3 choices... get used to hearing about your bad build (realize it IS you, not them, at fault here)... change the build to one that is more effective for the mech (be a better teammate and improve your personal performance at the same time)... or just realize that maybe if you can't enjoy playing effective mechs and builds, that perhaps this isn't the right game for you. I know that's more abrupt than you'd like, but that's the way it is.

Now, in terms of "boating" you're right... 2 weapons of a type does not a boat make. But with LRMs you're committing your entire mech to a certain type of play just by having them on, regardless if you've got 10, 25, or 40. It's a lot of weight and play consideration that could be spent elsewhere. The "jack of all trades" thing rarely works in Mechwarrior - though it works amazing in tabletop. For the purposes of MWO, you're best bet is to synergize your builds. Focus on what you want your build to do. Yours is kinda all over the place. If you want to stay at range, fine. Drop the AC/20 for something else, and fully commit to the LRMs. It's a total waste on the Atlas, still, but at least you're not doing it half-assed. Is that what the community would recommend? No. We'd recommend you use a frontline brawler to brawl. Hence why you hear so much about it.

I would be tempted to agree except I've never had anyone rage at the end of the game, it is always in the first half, and usually from someone who died relatively early on. I am almost never the last mech alive on a losing match. Many matches I am the one who ends up trying to lead a charge because everyone wants to sit back and poke at mass range, or hide behind walls afraid of enemy missiles. Another time the LRM's can be very nice to have. I've had a few matches on the new snow map (the name escapes me right now) where I have led the charge while launching LRM's and poking with my lasers along the way. The game I do do piss poor I never get raged at. It's always earlier on by one guy who died early or one guy who saw me launch one volley on the way to the fight. I have never once received positive constructive criticism in game. Just crying.

[Realizer]

My opinion as a newer player in this game is that it's a team game. Teams that act as a team perform better together instead of having the solo warrior, who doesn't care about anything but his own mech, it brings down the team you're on. When I'm doing my load out, I'm thinking how will this benefit a push, or defense on a node, ect. The people who build only for themselves are selfish in my opinion. We are all playing and spending time/money on our gaming experience. No one is out there soloing entire teams every match. You not being on the line to soak up damage and give damage as an assault (which is it's role) ultimately does bring your team down.

In the end people have just as much of a right being mad at your build, as you have to use that build. You are free to build whatever you want sure, and we are free to say your build is counterproductive to your mechs weight class. When this game brings out 1v1 matches I'll play whatever build I want, until then I'll make sure my builds benefit my team.

Edited by Realizer, 14 February 2016 - 04:44 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Deathlike, on 14 February 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

Because, with all that tonnage (in terms of bulk - larger mechs have more armor to play with) allocated in the back, instead of the front, everyone that has less armor is in a worse position because of it. In the optimal case, mechs share armor when they are fighting together - when they are fighting apart, you are creating a series of favorable double teams in which the isolated player tends to lose in. Usually those with less armor (like Mediums in general) are OK if they can deal damage in less armor/tank/brawl based situations. That's how armor works optimally.

Having an Atlas at the very end of a match when there's at least 3v1 almost always disfavours the Atlas in question.

Again, this is not the answer. The Atlas is going to push, getting his share of damage, has AC20 and LLs. How the single LRM rack makes a mech pilot back row coward? Not the actions, which will be the same as with SRMs? How does that change all?

[ScarecrowES]

pyrocomp, on 14 February 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

As if the main point of all the rants was 'you're are not soaking damage'. See the beginning of the thread, main concern was that those 100 tons are in a back row, not in the front attracting fire. So, again, how a single LRM rack on a mech makes a pilot back row coward? The push with LRMs is also possible in terms of supression fire. There are not so many facehuggers except of lights, so you'll have you lock and ability to shake that cockpit and blind with explosions. In T3 it works.

Well, in point of fact, with an LRM 20 and an LRM 5 mounted, as the OP does, it's a minimum 12 ton (14 tons with Artemis) investment for maximum 25 damage if all LRMs connect (less than 50% will). That's not including ammo. That's a LOT of tonnage for no useful output. Not just in tonnage, but in slots too.

For the same tonnage, you can mount 6 SRM6s (9 or 12 tons) with additional ammo for 36 damage. And much of that is guaranteed damage if your aim is good. You've more than doubled your output per ton on your missile investment. Also, you're now synergized with your AC/20 (same range and firing qualities as the SRMs) so you're adding 20 more damage to the salvo, for a 56pt alpha just on the torso weapons within 270m, instead of just 20pts. This doesn't include what you've put on your arms.

So why would a single LRM be so bad? Because it's wasted tonnage and slots, basically. You're investing much more into it than you're getting out.

To the other point... part of being on the front and aiding in the push is actually doing damage while you're soaking it up. Otherwise you're just commiting suicide. Since a full 1/3 of the OPs weapons by ton are useless in a push, you've basically gimped yourself in this role too.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 14 February 2016 - 04:54 PM.

[Malachy Karrde]

People said the same thing about me carryinjg missiles on my dire wolf. I've had the pleasure of putting several of those same people in the dirt. People don't say that stuff to me any more and I build my mech the way I want.

[pyrocomp]

ScarecrowES, on 14 February 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

Well, in point of fact, with an LRM 20 and an LRM 5 mounted, as the OP does, it's a minimum 12 ton (14 tons with Artemis) investment for maximum 25 damage if all LRMs connect (less than 50% will). That's not including ammo. That's a LOT of tonnage for no useful output. Not just in tonnage, but in slots too.

For the same tonnage, you can mount 6 SRM6s (9 or 12 tons) with additional ammo for 36 damage. And much of that is guaranteed damage if your aim is good. You've more than doubled your output per ton on your missile investment. Also, you're now synergized with your AC/20 (same range and firing qualities as the SRMs) so you're adding 20 more damage to the salvo, for a 56pt alpha just on the torso weapons within 270m, instead of just 20pts. This doesn't include what you've put on your arms.

So why would a single LRM be so bad? Because it's wasted tonnage and slots, basically. You're investing much more into it than you're getting out.

In LRM5s the investment is lower than in SRM6 as I remeber. The ability to do damage while nascarring and (remember, it's T3) spook people into hiding against ability to shoot those SRMs one or twice before they get blown in the push. Not so sure what's best.

[Gyrok]

Malachy Karrde, on 14 February 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

People said the same thing about me carryinjg missiles on my dire wolf. I've had the pleasure of putting several of those same people in the dirt. People don't say that stuff to me any more and I build my mech the way I want.

If you run LRMs "semi-successfully" on a DW, you must play in scrublandia as well...

[Deathlike]

pyrocomp, on 14 February 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

Again, this is not the answer. The Atlas is going to push, getting his share of damage, has AC20 and LLs. How the single LRM rack makes a mech pilot back row coward? Not the actions, which will be the same as with SRMs? How does that change all?

3 LPL+1AC20 can be built on the Misery (I'm trying to think of a better example offhand - but struggling at the moment my original example was actually valid) and 2 LL+AC20 can be built on the Cataphract , and will brawl more efficiently than the Atlas that doesn't use its missile hardpoints for SRM brawling.

LRMs in this instance will be far less efficient for what the build is using for. You can do 2 LL+AC20 on a host of "lighter" mechs (mechs smaller than an Atlas) that is far more mobile.. so the Atlas is gimping itself.

The Atlas is far more fearsome in combat with at least 3 SRM6+Artemis + 1 AC20 than the alternative options. LL is largely less effective once you overheat (which is why most builds run with Medium Lasers) and even then it's still not efficient enough.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 February 2016 - 05:16 PM.

[Gyrok]

pyrocomp, on 14 February 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

In LRM5s the investment is lower than in SRM6 as I remeber. The ability to do damage while nascarring and (remember, it's T3) spook people into hiding against ability to shoot those SRMs one or twice before they get blown in the push. Not so sure what's best.

Damage per ton is significantly lower.

LRM5 = 2.5 damage/ton @ 2 tons

SRM6 = 4 damage/ton @ 3 tons.

[Malachy Karrde]

Feel free to go 1 on 1 assaults with me any time Gyrok. I'll plant your @ss just as fast as I did the last big meta talker.

[ScarecrowES]

pyrocomp, on 14 February 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

In LRM5s the investment is lower than in SRM6 as I remeber. The ability to do damage while nascarring and (remember, it's T3) spook people into hiding against ability to shoot those SRMs one or twice before they get blown in the push. Not so sure what's best.

LRM5 will output 5pts of damage if all missiles hit (they won't). It's a 2 ton minimum investment for the launcher. Most competent players will easily defeat incoming missiles using basic tactics like... moving out of the way. With the SRM6, it's a 3 ton investment for 12pts of damage. Damage that you can control, and the enemy can't defeat.

[pyrocomp]

Gyrok, on 14 February 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

Damage per ton is significantly lower.

LRM5 = 2.5 damage/ton @ 2 tons

SRM6 = 4 damage/ton @ 3 tons.

Time to use those tons, e.g. amount of actual damage done? LRM5+A at least go CT usually. And SRMs will spread. So you can bring more potential damage in those ammo-tons, but what and how will be applied?

[ScarecrowES]

Malachy Karrde, on 14 February 2016 - 05:01 PM, said:

Feel free to go 1 on 1 assaults with me any time Gyrok. I'll plant your @ss just as fast as I did the last big meta talker.

Haha... I think I'd put my money on Gyrok here, rookie.

pyrocomp, on 14 February 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

Time to use those tons, e.g. amount of actual damage done? LRM5+A at least go CT usually. And SRMs will spread. So you can bring more potential damage in those ammo-tons, but what and how will be applied?

LRMs will hit the mech at a higher value of spread than max spread in the effective range of the SRM. Since when do LRMs mostly hit the CT?

[Mystere]

Gyrok, on 14 February 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

Pro tip:

You're a "pro" in what, exactly?

Edited by Mystere, 14 February 2016 - 05:08 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Deathlike, on 14 February 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

3 LPL+1AC20 can be built on the Misery (I'm trying to think of a better example offhand - but struggling at the moment) 2 LL+AC20 can be built on the Cataphract , and will brawl more efficiently than the Atlas that doesn't use its missile hardpoints for SRM brawling.

LRMs in this instance will be far less efficient for what the build is using for. You can do 2 LL+AC20 on a host of "lighter" mechs (mechs smaller than an Atlas) that is far more mobile.. so the Atlas is gimping itself.

The Atlas is far more fearsome in combat with at least 3 SRM6+Artemis + 1 AC20 than the alternative options. LL is largely less effective once you overheat (which is why most builds run with Medium Lasers) and even then it's still not efficient enough.

However, you take only situation when Atlas is already within 270 m of the enemy and can make a good leading shot (SRMs are not that fast) and is alone (ahem, that is bad with any loadout). What this Atlas does all the way there? With LRMs he might've already done some target softening. This is an attempt to judge isolated data. Not a good way to evaluate builds.

[Malachy Karrde]

Gyrok is merely another Meta is the only way guy. I've planted more of them than I care to count. I'm willing to put my build against anything he wants to come up with. 80 to 100 tons. Don't care what he drives.
I have 6 more days of premium time and will be on this time tomorrow. I will even Fraps the match and put it on youtube. I'm that confident

Edited by Malachy Karrde, 14 February 2016 - 05:09 PM.

[pyrocomp]

ScarecrowES, on 14 February 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

LRM5 will output 5pts of damage if all missiles hit (they won't). It's a 2 ton minimum investment for the launcher. Most competent players will easily defeat incoming missiles using basic tactics like... moving out of the way. With the SRM6, it's a 3 ton investment for 12pts of damage. Damage that you can control, and the enemy can't defeat.

So, literally, enemy cannot just walk out of range? From a slow Atlas? How's so? Or those circling lights will patiently pause for you to make a good SRM shot and will proceed there on? You create specific situations with enemy going deathstaring face to face. This is not that common.

[Deathlike]

pyrocomp, on 14 February 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

However, you take only situation when Atlas is already within 270 m of the enemy and can make a good leading shot (SRMs are not that fast) and is alone (ahem, that is bad with any loadout). What this Atlas does all the way there? With LRMs he might've already done some target softening. This is an attempt to judge isolated data. Not a good way to evaluate builds.

Have you used SRMs lately? The Oxide threads aren't a hint of anything at all?

I dunno about you, but SRMs are much better now with the velocity boosts (not necessarily in hit detection, but whatever).

I'm not always running true meta, but you are totally not aware of the current meta.

I love SRMs... I should be running more of it if anything.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 February 2016 - 05:11 PM.