679 replies to this topic

[pyrocomp]

MischiefSC, on 16 February 2016 - 01:13 AM, said:

That's not the MM though, it's the population.

If there was enough players in the right weight classes of mechs and the right PSR level all available at the same time and not needed to fill out other matches the MM would absolutely love to have a pure T4 match; 12 T4 on one side, 12 T4 on the other.

The problem is that we don't have anything like the population required for that. Not even close. We don't even have the population to consistently and effectively try to fill 2 T2s per team, 5 T3s per team4xT4 and 1xT5. The MM as designed starts with wanting to get an ideal and homogeneous setup but it looks at numerous matches all trying to build at once and tries to slot them based off who's actually in queue. Then add in tonnage variance and you start to hit real issues.

If 2k people are playing MW:O at once, 500 of them in CW and 500 in group queue that only gives you 1k players to build quickplay matches with. Not everyone is looking for matches at any given time; many are in mechlab, training grounds, building groups and dicking around. Think about how much time you spend outside of matches while logged into MW:O in a day.

Then you've got people de-selecting servers like Europe and Oceanic. Given that each match is 7-15 minutes but it tries to build within 120 seconds it's generally got less than 10% of the population available to build matches at any given time, at peak, best case scenario. More realistically it's going to be about 5% and that's still generous.. So out of 100 people it's got to find 24 who roughly match for tonnage split into two groups of 12 and roughly match for PSR.

If we had 20,000 players on at peak you'd have drastically better matchmaking and you can look at things like drilling PSR down on individual chassis, even different loadouts to tweak you to the best, most precise build so that in your favorite mech your PSR is higher, especially in your best loadout while when you're trying to level that new terribad chassis you're considered way lower. For right now though that's irrelevant - you're lucky to get something sorta kinda close-ish.

ahem.
Steam makes up to 50% of the population (Russ twitted this). Steam metrics show for the last week 2000 palyers at low and 3000 at high. Translates into 4000-6000 players on-line. Double your nambers.
CW population. Taking that at present at high time Davion CW population is around 200, CW claims about a 1000-1200 players total (not accurate since I have no numbers for Clan faction, but from the look of it it is low except for Falcons). You have MM to tinker with 3000-5000 players for the solo and group queue.
At some point there was a claim (not sure well based, but) that sdolo queue accounts for 70% of entire QP population. This leaves 2000-3500 players for solo at any time except Tyk or dedicated group-CW events.
On average match is 12 minutes (again Russ somewhere around clan invasion, cannot dig up). 1-2 minutes to connect to a match, mini-game and waiting screen. Total less than 15 minutes. To be honest, many leave the match when their mech is destroyed and jump into the next match. Average player has a little under 4 matches per hour. Accounting for 12 minutes in a match, 2 minutes end-of-match, etc. Even taking that it is 1 minute while people are not playing or watching voting/loadin/connecting/end screen that are still well above 7% of logged time (1/15 of all time). Translates into 130-230 players. If you take flat tier distribution it results in 26-46 players per tier. People claim that T3 is overpopulated and T1 is underpopulated. Hence variations. Tier distribution is vastly unknown. But even with people off to mechlab (how often do you go there? I do it roughly once in 10 or 20 matches, a rare occasion) it still gives 23-41 player per tier. Peak time accounts for half ot the day. Oceanic population is vastly separated from EU-NA (again PGI statement that for the vast majority of the palyers on of the following is true - 1) only the oceanic server is selected 2) only the Oceanic server is deselected.
So half of the day you have reasonable chances to get pure tier match.

What is your average waiting time by the way to test your hypothesis of reaaallly mexed population? Mine is well below 1 minute. And I rarely seen different tier forumwarriors (for whom I know the tier and it is different from mine) in-game and I cannot claim I do not see forumwarriors altogheter.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

This was never actually a Battletech Game...ever...at all.

As for the rest of it.

There is not "one optimum build per chassis". However, bringing LRMs is a deficient build on basically any mech...so do not bring LRMs.

The rules of courtesy for scrub queue:

1.) When bringing lasers, the smaller the laser, the more you need to be effective.

2.) LRMs are terrible, and you should feel terrible for bringing them

3.) Gauss is good, Gauss is great...

4.) Wub is love, wub is life

If you can stick to that...you should be in good shape. Just remember, only 2 rules per mech, more than that is a kitchen sink build.

Think I'll keep bringing PPC and autocannon, and keep laughing at jaxjace. Oh so serious!

[Bud Crue]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 February 2016 - 06:16 AM, said:

Think I'll keep bringing PPC and autocannon, and keep laughing at jaxjace. Oh so serious!

Had the exact same thought. Though I may also give LRMs another look just cuz anything that brings out as much craziness as reflected by this thread can't be all bad.

[Mead]

Tonight I'm gonna drop in an Atlas with LRMs, SLAS, MG, and flamers until someone strokes out in chat.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 February 2016 - 06:16 AM, said:

Think I'll keep bringing PPC and autocannon, and keep laughing at jaxjace. Oh so serious!

PPC + AC is meta you "anti-meta-scrublord".

[B0oN]

Tarogato, on 15 February 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

You know...

<3 you Tarogato ... that MUST BERN ^^

[mogs01gt]

Mead, on 16 February 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Tonight I'm gonna drop in an Atlas with LRMs, SLAS, MG, and flamers until someone strokes out in chat.

too obvious of a troll build! Do LRMs and an lbx

Edited by mogs01gt, 16 February 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:

PPC + AC is meta you &quot;anti-meta-scrublord&quot;.

Two years ago. Now it's "Retro".

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 February 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

Two years ago. Now it's "Retro".

A CTF-3D poptart is retro...ballistics and ACs are already back

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

A CTF-3D poptart is retro...ballistics and ACs are already back

Not my fault I'm a classic. Been using PPCs and ACs since Closed Beta, when they're hit reg really sucked, and PPCS were speaking damage all over the whole mech.

And I'll be using them when they switch off the servers.

Rest of you guys might chase trends, I'll stay consistent. Not gonna find me wearing skinny jeans.

[TexAce]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

This was never actually a Battletech Game...ever...at all.

As for the rest of it.

There is not &quot;one optimum build per chassis&quot;. However, bringing LRMs is a deficient build on basically any mech...so do not bring LRMs.

The rules of courtesy for scrub queue:

1.) When bringing lasers, the smaller the laser, the more you need to be effective.

2.) LRMs are terrible, and you should feel terrible for bringing them

3.) Gauss is good, Gauss is great...

4.) Wub is love, wub is life

If you can stick to that...you should be in good shape. Just remember, only 2 rules per mech, more than that is a kitchen sink build.

I actually wanted to comment on the stupidness of this post but then I saw who the author was. Then it was not needed anymore.

[Gyrok]

TexAce, on 16 February 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

I actually wanted to comment on the stupidness of this post but then I saw who the author was. Then it was not needed anymore.

Likewise, I actually wanted to comment on the stupidness of this post but then I saw who the author was. Then it was not needed anymore.

[Alienized]

MeanFacedJohnny, on 15 February 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

Spending a crapload of money to support a game I enjoy is selfish? (Could've bought a ps4 with the money I've spent on this game) Staying positive in k/d and w/l with a 'bad' build is selfish?
If I consistently win, and do decent I wouldn't consider that screwing up my team. So many of you guys remind me of the meta sheep in League of Legends. At least when I used to play that game, when my buddy and I did good with an unconventional 'bad' lane comp, even if there was hate at the beginning, by the end at least some would give us credit for doing well. This elitist mentality is what has killed, and will continue to kill, many f2p games. I want to see this game thrive, but when people get salty at someone for their build decisions or even for not doing well in a game or two, they will be less inclined to play. Let alone recommend the game to others. When people are told there is only a few 'right' ways to play a game, they will not want to play. I heard about this game from friends. Never played battletech. Have a few memories of MW3 (long tom on the atlas... good times) If I had seen this kind of seclusion and elitism when I started MWO I never would have continued playing and would never defend this game. A big part of the reason I don't play league of legends anymore is because of the everyone's a pro, elitist mentality. And we were pretty damn good at league too, but I still stopped playing, because of rude elitists that cry about any little thing that didn't fit the ever changing meta. If the sight of my LRM's on my atlas disgust you that much, you should think about your priorities in life. I never thought the mentality of this game could get as bad as League...

it is selfish, i spent alot of money as well in here yet i dont have the character to just ignore the 11 other guys.
i do care about others that are here to have fun as well so the last thing i want to do is play like a never learning monkey.
as much as i want to play this game with hybrid mechs filled with all weapontypes i understand that its not good most of times.

i do use them when i play with the people i know of that they are able to play with and around those loadouts and in CW with my unit but barely ever in solo pugs. simple thing is: i would either not have fun against the enemies i am up to (the bane of the better tiers) OR i would play far worse than i can do which is bad for the complete team.

keep one thing in mind forever and always: you are never alone in here. some share your problems but they adapt which helps everyone.
if you should ever play CW you will find that out that only co-operation with the other guys of your team is the key to win which INCLUDES loadouts.

and winning is also more fun than losing

[ScarecrowES]

Bud Crue, on 16 February 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

So for the last 30 pages, the main premise put forth by the &quot;comp&quot; crowd seems to be that: A player bringing a non-optimum build into a match is exhibiting a failure to respect their fellows, and is in fact an affirmative act at &quot;being bad&quot;; and that such an act should necessitate ridicule and derision in order to make the offending player aware of their deficiency. Shockingly, some of you have even gone so far to assert that a player bringing a non-optimum build is a reportable offense of the TOS.

Your basic premise and your summary are both fundementally wrong. First... your reference to "comp crowd," if you've followed the thread, includes nearly everyone posting minus the few "my fun > your fun" group. I'm not sure even a single person has seriously implied an Atlas with LRMs is a decent build. You're implying there's a division on the matter, and that the division exists between hardcore competitive players and everyone else. It's actually exactly the opposite. Only the most professed "for fun only" casuals are outside the consensus here.

Next, you're using "optimum" too broadly. Literally noone has said you must run an optimum build. There won't even be consensus on what "optimum" will be. What you've heard is "effective." "Effective" is a very wide net we cast. Hell, it encompasses damn near everything that's not completely rubbish. An LRM Atlas sits just outside "effective." This is not some arbitrary standard pulled out of thin air. It's from years of testing, number crunching, and comparison. Some builds simply rise above others and set a standard to be compared to. The LRM Atlas compares very unfavorably to its standard. There's not one argument here in 30-plus pages against that.

Beyond that... noone suggests outright hostility toward other players. But youre right in suggesting that a perceived slight against the team (knowingly harming your team by bringing a poor mech) will likely be met by a slight against the offending player. You hurt the team, expect someone is going to let you know.

THAT is the main premise of the thread.

[Reverend]

Look if the OP wants to build awful snowflakes let the guy build awful snowflakes and everyone can laugh about it later.

[Dan Nashe]

Wait I thought LRM were OP. Forums lied to me again!

Down here in T4 land the team with the most lrms S tends to win
Then again I have a 90 percent win rate over the last 50 games so I'm biased.

There's a difference between sub optimal, non meta and outright bad. Also team play, solo play and each tier are entirely different experiences. And especially at lower tiers some players just click better with different builds. I guarantee you there are players who simply do better with unusual builds because it clicks with their playstyle. This was super true in the pop tart era, but it's still true now.

I agree lrm ddc is not great. But it can be fun.

Plus fun actually matters. Boating lasers with single heatsinks is obviously a mistake. If you are levelling an atlas and you want to try double lb10x or missile ddc, whatever, go for it. It's not much worse than bringing a gargoyle.

Besides you shouldn't pilot a mech without mastering it first. So everyone has to hurt their team at some point.

Full disclosure: AS-7S (L) 4-lrm5 missile , with 3 lpls is my cbills farming mech. I won 19 of my first 20 games in it, so I'm biased. But it also shows that build optimization rarely determines which side wins a quickplay game. Even at tier 1, I bet you could take 3 heatsinks off every mech on one team, and 9 times out of 10 you'd get the same result. (In quick play).

I'm willing to entertain much higher standards in CW. But in quickplay playing fun builds because they are fun and experimenting in the mechlab is totally a thing. As is playing a sub optimal build because you ran out of cbills. Not wearing cleats to play thanksgiving football in the snow with friends is totally okay. There's nothing at stake. It'It's quickplay. Now, there's a line between that and charging in and dying while making no serious effort to win, but the line is real.

Of course, I don't mind advice in quickplay, but people giving it tend to not understand the difference between being helpful and being an ***. I have thick skin. Plus I'm playing in t4, but I actually devour meta discussions and used to be serious about 12s, so I'm pretty confident I know what the meta is and why more than most of the talkers in my rounds, so it's pretty easy to blow off bad advice or acknowledge that they are right without caring, without getting upset that they're criticizing my build.

Don't Skin The Dogs!

And for the love of all that is holy, press R.

[Appogee]

Reverend, on 16 February 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

Look if the OP wants to build awful snowflakes let the guy build awful snowflakes and everyone can laugh about it later.

Yeah, but then the matchmaker puts him on my team and I'm somehow supposed to carry not only him, but also three to six other people all bringing various version of Derp On Legs.

I can't level Mechs and carry at the same time.

Oh the humanity.

[Bud Crue]

ScarecrowES, on 16 February 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

Your basic premise and your summary are both fundementally wrong. First... your reference to "comp crowd," if you've followed the thread, includes nearly everyone posting minus the few "my fun > your fun" group. I'm not sure even a single person has seriously implied an Atlas with LRMs is a decent build. You're implying there's a division on the matter, and that the division exists between hardcore competitive players and everyone else. It's actually exactly the opposite. Only the most professed "for fun only" casuals are outside the consensus here.

Next, you're using "optimum" too broadly. Literally noone has said you must run an optimum build. There won't even be consensus on what "optimum" will be. What you've heard is "effective." "Effective" is a very wide net we cast. Hell, it encompasses damn near everything that's not completely rubbish. An LRM Atlas sits just outside "effective." This is not some arbitrary standard pulled out of thin air. It's from years of testing, number crunching, and comparison. Some builds simply rise above others and set a standard to be compared to. The LRM Atlas compares very unfavorably to its standard. There's not one argument here in 30-plus pages against that.

Beyond that... noone suggests outright hostility toward other players. But youre right in suggesting that a perceived slight against the team (knowingly harming your team by bringing a poor mech) will likely be met by a slight against the offending player. You hurt the team, expect someone is going to let you know.

THAT is the main premise of the thread.

Scarcrow, I think you read a different thread than I.

Multiple posters, in support of the OP, have said things along the lines of "its a decent build" in re the OP's build.
Multiple posters have prefaced their criticisms of the OP with "at the competitive level..." and then proceeded to explain how it is less than "optimum" (including you).
There is over a page of posts wherein people were arguing if it is appropriate to not only criticize the OP and people bringing such builds into a match, but if it is appropriate to report them and even harass them.
Its all back there. You should read some of it. Its enlightening.

[Sandpit]

Bud Crue, on 16 February 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

Scarcrow, I think you read a different thread than I.

Multiple posters, in support of the OP, have said things along the lines of "its a decent build" in re the OP's build.
Multiple posters have prefaced their criticisms of the OP with "at the competitive level..." and then proceeded to explain how it is less than "optimum" (including you).
There is over a page of posts wherein people were arguing if it is appropriate to not only criticize the OP and people bringing such builds into a match, but if it is appropriate to report them and even harass them.
Its all back there. You should read some of it. Its enlightening.

It's humorous but sad. I used to hear the same thing nonstop about my LL Stalker builds. The players that dropped with me knew they were good builds in my hands, those who just looked at the build deemed it "worthless" because it didn't fall into their narrow view and scope of what was "good".

OP, keep on keeping on, everyone telling the OP he's "wrong", get over yourselves

[Deathswarrior]

The fact that this forum is still an ongoing argument of someones play style (EVEN THOUGH HE WINS MORE OFTEN THEN NOT)shows more about our player base then then I would have liked to see.

Stating to feel a lot like League of Legends around here and I didn't think that possible with a mostly "Mature/Grown Adult" player base but I guess as long as insulting someone makes you feel better more power to you.