704 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

Imperius, on 20 March 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Until there is talk about CW actually moving out of 3051-3053 this is a non-issue. Technically CW would be in permanent cease fire and somehow we fought for Tukayyad and forgot, then fought for it again. CW and Tukayyad is like the movie Ground Hog Day.

Then if CW stays 3051/3053 the Mk. II is a non issue, as it was not even on the drawing board at that time. And before you go all Kodiak 3 on us, remember that the base Kodiak was in production before the invasion. The other thing to note about TRO' S in they are a report from all new mechs seen and reported at the time.


As for Tukayyad being a permanent cease fire, nope, rather a case of no more invasion past this line in space, everything above this line is fair game though.

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 20 March 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

If we are going to pull MW4 into this....

see a pattern here? plus are we really going to use Mw4 here?

Just trying to explain to you why the lore is what it is. Remember, YOU are the one who wants the mech because you loved in in MW4. The lore is what it is because they needed to come up with a way to make the mech make sense in that game.

[CK16]

Yes, and I know it was used by IS houses on a limited basis. Far more were in Clan hands, in Nova Cat and Diamond Shark alone, from the way I took it from the TRO they have been up for sale since about 3062 to the clans first, any clan could purchase a few if they choose to, after they couldn't get a few sold in solid numbers so they opened up to the IS a little bit, not giving them away as candy, they were still very restricted to IS for sales... It would make very little sense for it to be strictly an IS mech. I could see it as both...but if they had to choose of the 2 sides who gets it the clans or the IS houses, it should go to the clans its simple.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 20 March 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

Then if CW stays 3051/3053 the Mk. II is a non issue, as it was not even on the drawing board at that time. And before you go all Kodiak 3 on us, remember that the base Kodiak was in production before the invasion. The other thing to note about TRO' S in they are a report from all new mechs seen and reported at the time.


As for Tukayyad being a permanent cease fire, nope, rather a case of no more invasion past this line in space, everything above this line is fair game though.

Parallel to Tukayyid and perpendicular to the Clan invasion lanes, yeah. So Clans could still go hog wild on Steiner and Kurita, though they generally didn't.

I don't know why there wasn't a solid plan to jump from 3052 to 3059 from the beginning. Surely when PGI started the one-for-one timeline idea, they'd have to know there was a period of almost 7 years where pretty much nothing of note happened in their conflict... right? Or maybe they got to the point where they were always going to have to cycle through 3050-3053 over and over. Regardless, other than the stories involved, 3050-3052 is the most boring part of the Invasion era in terms of conflicts. It was a bad choice of timelines for CW.

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 20 March 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Yes, and I know it was used by IS houses on a limited basis. Far more were in Clan hands, in Nova Cat and Diamond Shark alone, from the way I took it from the TRO they have been up for sale since about 3062 to the clans first, any clan could purchase a few if they choose to, after they couldn't get a few sold in solid numbers so they opened up to the IS a little bit, not giving them away as candy, they were still very restricted to IS for sales... It would make very little sense for it to be strictly an IS mech. I could see it as both...but if they had to choose of the 2 sides who gets it the clans or the IS houses, it should go to the clans its simple.

You've still got it backwards. The Clans that were Homeworld at the time didn't want them. They were obsolete. This is 3066. Clans had more advanced tech at the end of the 3050's. The TRO makes a point to tell you none of the Homeworld Clans bought any. To use an analogy from another thread, it'd be like being offered an Me-262 at a time where the F-22 was already on sale, and at nearly the same price.

Noone but Nova Cat ever bought them, and they were part of Kurita at the time (so technically Kurita bought them, which is why it's native to the Draconis Combine in the Master Unit List). And then all the IS Clan-allied IS Houses bought them, which is why THOSE Houses are on the Master Unit List. And why none of the Clans but DS (originator), NC (purchaser), and IH (trials) are listed as being able to use it. And for MWO, only one of those statuses counts - NC.

But in the end, PGI will do whatever they want. You might just get it as Clan for no greater reason than because it's Clan tech and PGI is lazy.

[Metus regem]

ScarecrowES, on 20 March 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

You've still got it backwards. The Clans that were Homeworld at the time didn't want them. They were obsolete. This is 3066. Clans had more advanced tech at the end of the 3050's. The TRO makes a point to tell you none of the Homeworld Clans bought any. To use an analogy from another thread, it'd be like being offered an Me-262 at a time where the F-22 was already on sale, and at nearly the same price.

Oh for F*** sakes! It'd be more like being offered an F-15 over an F-22.... The Mad Cat Mk II is not a a freaking Mackie!

[CK16]

Metus regem, on 20 March 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Oh for F*** sakes! It'd be more like being offered an F-15 over an F-22.... The Mad Cat Mk II is not a a freaking Mackie!

to elaborate more like an F-15C to the F-22, F-15E is a strike aircraft rather then air superiority, IIRC the E replaced the F-111 right?

[Archangel.84]

ScarecrowES, on 19 March 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

Except you're not correct in that IS factions only make IS tech and Clans only make Clan tech. This ignores a whole slew of mechs in the post 3058 time period, including retrofits.

There is no strict divide between "IS factions" and "Clan factions" by the time of the Mad Cat Mk.II being introduced - beyond what tech base they use. The Second Star League explicitly included 2 Clans. They didn't stop being Clans (Nova Cat and Wolf [in Exile]) just because they were abjured by the Grand Council on Strana Mechty. Again - "IS factions" and "Clan factions" is not exclusive.

And what do you mean nothing happened in between 3052 and 3059? Would you like to tell that to the smoking corpses of Ulric Kerensky, Natasha Kerensky, Elias Crichell, and Vandervahn Christu?

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 20 March 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

to elaborate more like an F-15C to the F-22, F-15E is a strike aircraft rather then air superiority, IIRC the E replaced the F-111 right?

Not quite... very different roles. Despite the F-designation, the 111 was very much a dedicated strike aircraft, and should have been designated an attack (A) aircraft... but it began life as a part of a program that was very different than where it ended up. Such being the nature of military develepment. On the other hand, the F-15E is a dedicated air superiority fighter outfitted for bombing, so really not the same class of aircraft. Symantics.

For all intents and purposes, the F-15 might as well be an Me-262 compared to the F-22. SO... maybe the argument would better be said as Me-262 vs F-15? I wasn't the one who came up with the initial analogy. Blah... point stands, completely different generations of technology, the later making the former completely obsolete and unable to compete in the same space.

[ScarecrowES]

Archangel.84, on 20 March 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

There is no strict divide between "IS factions" and "Clan factions" by the time of the Mad Cat Mk.II being introduced - beyond what tech base they use. The Second Star League explicitly included 2 Clans. They didn't stop being Clans (Nova Cat and Wolf [in Exile]) just because they were abjured by the Grand Council on Strana Mechty. Again - "IS factions" and "Clan factions" is not exclusive.

And what do you mean nothing happened in between 3052 and 3059? Would you like to tell that to the smoking corpses of Ulric Kerensky, Natasha Kerensky, Elias Crichell, and Vandervahn Christu?

For the first point, you're absolutely right in TT, but for the purposes of MWO, where we need to make clear divides between two major factions? It goes to whose side of the war each faction was on, and in this case Nova Cat and Wolf-in-Exile were on the IS side of the war prior to the release of the MkII. They still retained Clan culture, tech, economies, whatever... but they weren't part of the council anymore. They were outcasts. Like I said, that makes things complicated.

And yeah, clearly intra-Clan conflicts happened. The Refusal War was a big deal - changed the whole Clan invasion. Buuuut... that's a Clan-only conflict and doesn't really play into MWO's CW mode. But of course I imagine you're just being argumentative here for the sake of it, which... hell, I'm all for that.

[Archangel.84]

What do you mean "for the purposes of MWO"? Is there anything preventing Davion from going after Kurita, or Steiner going after Marik? Or Jade Falcon from attacking Wolf? Of course not. And in fact, half of the IS factions can only attack other IS factions. And when Wolf blitzed all the way to and surrounded Terra before the last CW reset, there was definitely inter-Clan fighting going on. If CW was locked in like that, you might have a point, but it's not. The closest you have is any Clan can defend any other Clan's planet, and any IS can defend any IS planet. And frankly I'm pretty sure that's so Davion, Liao, and Marik can fight Clanners in CW.

So if there's not already such restrictions in place, why would there be if (when) they drop the Nova Cat and Mk.II?

And since they haven't stopped any factions from attacking any other (including Steiner and Davion, talk about a breach of lore!!!), how is the Refusal War not a big deal?

[Imperius]

The main focus of the game that sets the rules is the PUBLIC QUEUE, where none of the crappy little arguments you few keep grasping at matter.

MWO sells mechs that's all that really matters.

Metus regem lets not go back to me linking Russ on Twitter saying that even the base chassis is not the determined factor. I thought we were past that argument but if I have to prove that I'm right again for the next 5 pages lets go...

[ScarecrowES]

Archangel.84, on 20 March 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

What do you mean "for the purposes of MWO"? Is there anything preventing Davion from going after Kurita, or Steiner going after Marik? Or Jade Falcon from attacking Wolf? Of course not. And in fact, half of the IS factions can only attack other IS factions. And when Wolf blitzed all the way to and surrounded Terra before the last CW reset, there was definitely inter-Clan fighting going on. If CW was locked in like that, you might have a point, but it's not. The closest you have is any Clan can defend any other Clan's planet, and any IS can defend any IS planet. And frankly I'm pretty sure that's so Davion, Liao, and Marik can fight Clanners in CW.

So if there's not already such restrictions in place, why would there be if (when) they drop the Nova Cat and Mk.II?

And since they haven't stopped any factions from attacking any other (including Steiner and Davion, talk about a breach of lore!!!), how is the Refusal War not a big deal?

Certainly CW is going to involve intra-faction fighting, but what's the "win" condition for CW? The Clans taking Terra or the IS holding it, right? So the end-game condition is still Clan/IS. Hell, if we start arguing that it's a free-for-all galaxy, releasing the MkII as Clan makes even less sense, since we're not caring about faction lines at all at that point. There's no more room to argue that tech defines faction.

I'm not discounting the Refusal War... to me, for my personal history with Battletech, it's the most significant event in all of Battletech. But for Community Warfare, it's not an event we really need to explore because it's a battle between two minor factions... the rest of the galaxy sits that one out. How would we deal with that in MWO? At least with the FedCom civil war, it still ends up being a galactic conflict, with everything that's going on at the time. But not so much during the Refusal War. IF we skip right to 3059, we go right back into a galaxy where the Clans and IS are back at war, as two distinct factions, which is the basis on which CW is founded - and we still get to deal with the fallout of the Refusal War with Wolf now on the side of the Inner Sphere.

Imperius, on 20 March 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

The main focus of the game that sets the rules is the PUBLIC QUEUE, where none of the crappy little arguments you few keep grasping at matter.

So then it doesn't matter if they release the MkII to the faction that actually used it in TT (IS), because in Pubs ANYONE could use it, right? Is that what we're saying? I'm totally fine with this argument.

[CK16]

I would still be very pissed if I couldn't put my Ghost Bear Camo on it while a filthy Free Birth could their houses......and one again no its not just an IS mech. It should and has much better chance as being with Clan Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, Smoke Jag, and even Nova Cat and other once they show up. It makes far less sense for it to be with Kurita or the Federate Commonwealth ONLY. Then Clan Only....It still was designed and originally intended for Clan purchase...says in the first paragraph on the TRO once again.

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 20 March 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

I would still be very pissed if I couldn't put my Ghost Bear Camo on it while a filthy Free Birth could their houses......and one again no its not just an IS mech. It should and has much better chance as being with Clan Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, Smoke Jag, and even Nova Cat and other once they show up. It makes far less sense for it to be with Kurita or the Federate Commonwealth ONLY. Then Clan Only....It still was designed and originally intended for Clan purchase...says in the first paragraph on the TRO once again.

Here's the problem. And I totally understand why you want it to be this way, but... You're emotionally invested in this particular outcome happening. Everything you're arguing is predicated on the idea of you getting exactly what you want, regardless of what the facts tell you. But... Lore-wise, Ghost Bear has no access to the MkII. The only way Ghost Bear camo would ever end up on a MkII is if PGI completely ignores lore in all regards.

Remember, the TRO tells you Jade Falcon and Wolf (reformed) never used them at all. Smoke Jaguar was gone. Ghost Bear was in the Inner Sphere. Only one of those factions would even be on the Clan side of CW during the time the MkII is released, and none of those 4 ever actually used the mech. The only factions that exist in the game that had access to the MkII are all IS Houses. It's pretty much impossible to argue this thing down onto the Clan side unless you're talking only about tech base, which is not how mechs are allocated into factions.

Put yourself on the other side of this argument. Imperius is Kurita. The MkII is native to Kurita. They actually had access to the mech. Ghost Bear didn't. The MkII never wore GB colors, but it DID wear Kurita colors. And Steiner colors... Davion colors. That's canon. Imperius would actually be totally on the side of canon if he wanted to use a MkII in Kurita camo. If he wanted that, the lore supports him 100%. Or Archangel... Steiner... lore supports the MkII in Steiner colors. And Metus? You'd see MkIIs marching to war in Davion colors too. They'd have vastly more right to have the MkII in their colors than you would in yours.

[Andi Nagasia]

though i do see it being an IS and a Clan mech, i think the Best option is to remove it from both,
give it all the Houses Camos and all the Clan Camos, but remove its playability in CW until later,

Why Later, im sure their will come a time where Mixed Tech is allowed,
im not saying it will be a Good Choice or a Bad one, just i feel it will happen at some point,
in that case i think the TBR-MK2 will be allowed in CW, but until that time its best left out of CW,
and given all Camos as a Sign of Good will from PGI to this Debate,

[ScarecrowES]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 March 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

though i do see it being an IS and a Clan mech, i think the Best option is to remove it from both,
give it all the Houses Camos and all the Clan Camos, but remove its playability in CW until later,

Why Later, im sure their will come a time where Mixed Tech is allowed,
im not saying it will be a Good Choice or a Bad one, just i feel it will happen at some point,
in that case i think the TBR-MK2 will be allowed in CW, but until that time its best left out of CW,
and given all Camos as a Sign of Good will from PGI to this Debate,

An even smarter thing to do, from the perspective of PGI, is to open all mechs to all factions - and maybe even port all camos to all mechs on either side of the war. Imagine the revenue stream PGI opens up from camos alone through the very simple act of porting camos to existing mechs. You could probably do a mech a day. It's easy. And then bang, more whales throwing money at the screen.

[Archangel.84]

Lore-wise, Marik has no access to the Mauler (Kurita). Kurita has no access to the Wolfhound (Steiner-Davion). Jade Falcon doesn't have access to the Ebon Jaguar (Smoke Jags, natch). Rasalhague has no access to the BJ-3 (St. Ives). Nobody (in-game) has access to advanced Black Knights or advanced Crabs (ComStar). Let alone the heroes, including a signature mech for a faction that doesn't exist. This is all straight from the lore too.

So why single out the Mk.II or Nova Cat as different, oh "not emotionally invested" person?

ScarecrowES, on 20 March 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

Certainly CW is going to involve intra-faction fighting, but what's the "win" condition for CW? The Clans taking Terra or the IS holding it, right? So the end-game condition is still Clan/IS. Hell, if we start arguing that it's a free-for-all galaxy, releasing the MkII as Clan makes even less sense, since we're not caring about faction lines at all at that point. There's no more room to argue that tech defines faction.

What? Of course it does. The faction lines are the Great Houses, Rasalhague, and the Clans. I dunno, what is the "win" condition for CW? For the Clans during Operation Revival, okay taking Terra. For the Houses... it was holding their territory because ComStar owned Terra.

ScarecrowES, on 20 March 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

I'm not discounting the Refusal War... to me, for my personal history with Battletech, it's the most significant event in all of Battletech. But for Community Warfare, it's not an event we really need to explore because it's a battle between two minor factions... the rest of the galaxy sits that one out. How would we deal with that in MWO? At least with the FedCom civil war, it still ends up being a galactic conflict, with everything that's going on at the time. But not so much during the Refusal War.

How is the FedCom civil war diffeerent from the Refusal War in this case?

Edited by Archangel.84, 20 March 2016 - 02:08 PM.

[CK16]

It is breaking just as much with Lore to have it IS only as it is Clan only. If they will break lore it would make more sense for Clan and keep it Clan tech vs IS tech just as MW:LL did it right? Its simple and easy to have it like this.

IF you are going to be all Mr.lore here then it should be open to both as stated above. You can not claim lore accurate and have it IS only.

Same as the Nova Cat's they would be a Clan faction, and as stated that does not mean they only attack IS factions. Even right now Clans can attack Clans in Cw if the attack lanes open up, with CW3 we will be able to do it more if we choose, however most factions have alliance's of we do not attack each other in fair sport in a race towards Terra. I have no idea how they could do it post Revival though....CW might just remain in a similar format as it is just to keep it simple, they also can not create much more brand new factions. The population for CW is already fairly small, dividing Clans into more individual factions would cause issues. When they get to the Fedcom civial war there is no Smoke Jags, this is the issue of I do not think it would be wise to just delete a faction they would need a merge some clans some how while keeping individual identity.

Edited by CK16, 20 March 2016 - 02:32 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Archangel.84, on 20 March 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

Lore-wise, Marik has no access to the Mauler. Kurita has no access to the Wolfhound. Jade Falcon doesn't have access to the Ebon Jaguar. Rasalhague has no access to the BJ-3. Nobody (in-game) has access to advanced Black Knights or advanced Crabs. Let alone the heroes, including a signature mech for a faction that doesn't exist. This is all straight from the lore too.

So why single out the Mk.II or Nova Cat as different, oh "not emotionally invested" person?

How is the FedCom civil war diffeerent from the Refusal War in this case?

Once again, MWO puts all the toys from minor factions in the major faction toy box, and any minor faction in that major faction can use any toy in the toy box. So in the case of each mech you're mentioning, they're all on the right side of the conflict, lore-wise. Lore dictates that the Wolfhound is a Steiner mech, and Steiner is Inner Sphere at the time of its release, so MWO puts the Wolfhound in the Inner Sphere toy box. Kurita is Inner Sphere too, so it can play with the Wolfhound. This ensures the Wolfhound fights on behalf of the Inner Sphere against the Clans in CW, as it should.

Lore dictates that the Nova Cat is a CNC mech. CNC was part of Kurita when the mech was first fielded. Kurita is Inner Sphere, so the mech goes in the Inner Sphere toy box. Thus, any Inner Sphere faction could use the Nova Cat. This ensures the Nova Cat fights on behalf of the Inner Sphere against the Clans in CW, as it should.

And same for the MkII - mech designed specifically for Inner Sphere consumption. Getting the broad brush strokes correct is the important part.

For the FedCom Civil War, there was a LOT of fighting going on at that time. Steiner and Davion going to war plunged the whole galaxy into conflict. Ghost Bear and Kurita/Nova Cat went to war. Draconis March and Kurita. Liao and St. Ives. Lots going on in the Inner Sphere, not to mention what was going on in the Clans. Almost nothing outside of fighting between between Wolf and Falcon happened during the Refusal War. The IS was uniting a new Star League. The Clans were organizing to breach the Truce of Tukkayyid. There wasn't a whole lot of conflict between 3053 and 3057, and from 3057-3058, it's more or less just 2 clans fighting.