704 replies to this topic

[Imperius]

Lol this debate is over, and I already gave all the reasons and examples of how PGI handles mechs and faction specific rules.

If you can't accept that well I'm sorry, you're really trying to fine tune a non-issue you believe is an issue. I don't know your hidden agenda, or do I really care. I will say it one last time in black and white.

>TRO 3067 has the Mad Cat MK II listed as a clan Battlemech, based off a clan omni mech, that uses clan weapons. (Clan, Clan, Clan)
>No mechs are faction specific or clan specific.
>The only section of the game that forces any very broad limiting of mech choice is CW, and the only limit is IS vs Clan
>CW is stuck in 3051-3053 indefinitely and we have mechs from 3055-3068 (Do not even go there with timeline again)
>PGI stance on mix-tech is it won't happen anytime soon, until tech 2 is added to the game this is a non-issue.
>Lore has been ignored since 2012, most TT rules are ignored, some vaules are used as guidelines generally just DMG.
>CW is played by maybe about 10% (if even that) of the user base. Due to this most balance and rules stem from the casual pug queue.
>Russ has specifically said in the past he wants to limit mech choices as little as possible. People buy the mechs they should be able to play what they want.
>PGI's main revenue is Mech Packs, there are not many good clan mechs to pull from, if anyone was remotely to take scarecrow seriously, the doom posters will actually be right for once because PGI will be forced to close thier revenue stream because lore... Not going to happen!

[ScarecrowES]

CK16, on 20 March 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

It is breaking just as much with Lore to have it IS on as it is Clan only. If they will break lore it would make more sense for Clan and keep it Clan tech vs IS tech just as MW:LL did it right? Its simple and easy to have it like this.

IF you are going to be all Mr.lore here then it should be open to both as stated above. You can not claim lore accurate and have it IS only.

Same as the Nova Cat's they would be a Clan faction, and as stated that does not mean they only attack IS factions. Even right now Clans can attack Clans in Cw if the attack lanes open up, with CW3 we will be able to do it more if we choose, however most factions have alliance's of we do not attack each other in fair sport in a race towards Terra. I have no idea how they could do it post Revival though....CW might just remain in a similar format as it is just to keep it simple, they also can not create much more brand new factions. The population for CW is already fairly small, dividing Clans into more individual factions would cause issues. When they get to the Fedcom civial war there is no Smoke Jags, this is the issue of I do not think it would be wise to just delete a faction they would need a merge some clans some how while keeping individual identity.

It doesn't break lore because the IS was the faction to use it. It's that simple. If MWO wants a neat faction line, and to not go into great detail for faction assignments, then the only factions in MWO that have access to the mech are in the Inner Sphere. You can't argue your way into a Ghost Bear MkII, not matter how you want to spin it. If you want to break things down to the point where we have individual faction alignments that would allow clans (Diamond Shark) to use the MkII in MWO, Ghost Bear STILL won't get it. Once you move that close to lore, you completely eliminate GB from contention altogether. The only want to see a MkII in GB paint is to completely ignore lore altogether and assign post 3058 mechs by tech base ONLY. Or, better yet, we just start to ignore faction alignment and release all mechs for all factions, which is how it would make sense for a post 3058 game.

Now, for the rest... If we move the state of CW to 3059, and set the map up for that era, you've put the galaxy at the start of Operation Bulldog. The map won't change much for the purposes of MWO from then to the end of the FedCom Civil war, so it's the last time you really need to account for factions changing sides. It's the last set of conflicts where we have two very clear sides for all available factions. Clans would start out with a lot more territority than they do now, which is MUCH better for CW. Every faction starts out with more attack lanes, and there is more territory for every faction to fight over. Right now, one of the primary reasons CW doesn't work is because Clan and IS tech has to be closely balanced for pub play, but it needs to be overpowered to allow clans to push out of their homeworlds and march to Terra as required by CW. That's why the Clans are stuck in their own territory in CW most of the time unless a large portion of the merc population floods into a Clan - and then territory is won through pure numbers alone.

Starting a session with the Clans halfway to Terra puts both factions on even footing to achieve the goals for each faction at the start of Operation Bulldog. Clans want to push to Terra, IS wants to push to the Homeworlds. This works with IS/Clan balanced tech. And it gives both factions and end-game condition that we don't actually have right now. In the current state of CW, only the Clans have an actual goal... taking Terra. The only goal the IS has is to stop that. In 3059, both factions would have the same goal... march to the others' homeworlds and capture them. This is a much better setup than we have currently.

It also gives us the possibility of a 3rd end-game scenario for the situation when neither faction is able to achieve their goals... The Great Refusal. Right now, CW has no way to break a stalemate. The Great Refusal offers that. In a 3059 state, if neither faction is able to march to the others' homeworlds in a given amount of time... a week, a month, whatever... we could enter the Great Refusal - a tie-breaker. This would play out more like a tournament than CW is normally situated around... specific factions fighting against specific others. Repeated CW drops between two preselected factions vying for a single planet. 4 clans, 4 main Houses, and then a full Council and Star League team that anyone on each side could join regardless of faction. So best of 5, with one of them being a whole faction vs whole faction brawl. If either faction wins 3 or more planets, their side wins the whole war.

This allows us to reset the map at regular intervals, which will encourage more participation... noone will get stuck getting rolled by default. And it gives us discreet, precise war periods to fight over, instead of this murky "we'll reset when we feel like" mentality with PGI we currently have.

Moreover, like in pub play, we drop tech divisions. Make it so any faction can use any mech in a CW drop deck. If we want, we can set it up so there is some sort of restriction on using cross-tech mechs... maybe assign each faction to a native tech base, and limit the ability to add cross-tech mechs by a specific tonnage - 90, 100... something like that. We can finally stop hearing about IS and Clan balance in CW. Even better, this opens the door to new tech and mechs being introduced in a way that prevents the CW system from becoming unbalanced in favor of either side. The Inner Sphere and Clans can get all their new toys. This opens up many more build options, and let's IS tech and Clan tech be vastly more distinct than they are now. We don't have to try to balance the same weapons against each other. They can be different and unique. ANd new tech opens up new mechs, which is important to PGI's revenue stream.

Realistically, moving to 3059 is by far the best thing we can do for this game.

[pbiggz]

Lol do you actually think lore matters to PGI? It hasn't for a long time.

[CK16]

pbiggz, on 20 March 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

Lol do you actually think lore matters to PGI? It hasn't for a long time.

PGI At least following lore this strictly as he is saying, no they wont, Nova Cat and Mad Cat Mk.II are obvious to many as a Clan mech and if they were to choose a side it would fall to clans, it makes no sense for the Nova Cat's to be an IS faction as well, would they have access to clan mechs atm? Or would they be held to using IS chassis they never used just cause they were IS now according to Scarecrow, if they release a Nova cat camo pattern would it be for IS or Clan? answer ti all is CLan, Clan ,Clan.... He is the only one on a rally cry for it to be IS only...No one agree's with this statement here to be 100% they are half true if that... Its for everyone or Clan pretty much bud, not IS. No one believes the Nova Cat will be an IS mech for all the houses to use or the Mad Cat Mk.II to be strictly for IS factions...

You insult us, you act smug, this is not a debate anymore this is flat out arrogance on his part of ignoring simple logic.

Edited by CK16, 20 March 2016 - 04:11 PM.

[pbiggz]

PS shadow: You're still here, really not understanding anything anyone says and pretending everyone else is stupid. Nobody here is gonna try to convince you you're wrong, because you either cannot comprehend the basic concepts we're discussing, or you're so good at reading into things that you're gleaning some deep hidden meaning nobody even knew was there. You live in an alternate reality. I hope you enjoy it there.

[Imperius]

ScarecrowES, on 20 March 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

I would ask you to learn to read... Nothing you've written makes any sense.

Mechs are sorted into factions by the Master Unit List, not tech. Every mech currently in MWO follows the Master Unit List sorting, as simplified my MWO. TECH has nothing to do with it. There is no example you can give, I'm absolutely confident, where a mech currently in the game lands on a side of the conflict that is not in keeping with the faction availability rules established by TT and followed by MWO using NATIVE mech guidance. All mechs follow their BMUL faction alignment in MWO.

As with this, almost everything else you say is either an ignorant interpretation of information you really don't understand or an outright lie - just like when you hear Russ tell you he's not in any hurry to put the MkII in the game you hear "It's the next mech in line."

Nowhere has PGI said we're stuck in the 3053 timeline. In fact, they've said their intention has always been to continue to move the timeline forward, so your contention here is an outright lie. Your contention that PGI doesn't follow lore is an outright lie. Lore is the only reason the MkII isn't on the release slate right now. Beyond that, the entire game is built around it. And I can't understand how putting the MkII on the IS side would limit its use any more than putting it on the Clan side - what was your point here?

And to your last point... you are literally thick if you continue to ignore the point of ALL OF THIS. PGI's revenue stream is about to dry up. There aren't enough mechs left to release that fit within the current scope of the game to keep it running for another 5 years. They have, at BEST, 2 years' worth of mechs they can release... and most of those probably won't sell nearly as well as the ones currently in the game. If they want to continue making money, they have to address the state of the game.

They won't be able to keep the game in 3053 for the next 5 years even if this were their intention - which it isn't. The current state of the game won't support another 5 years. So moving the timeline forward is something that has to be dealt with. New tech has to be dealt with. And nothing highlights that more than pushing for the frickin Mad Cat MkII. Pushing so hard for this mech is doing little more than holding up a giant "We're in deep ****" sign. And hey, we ARE in deep ****, so thanks for pointing that out. But you don't get to push so hard for the mech and ignore the storm that's coming along with it. You really should understand.

Go look up the Highlander IIC... Yup you're done... IIC mechs are both Clan and IS, but are considered Clan by PGI

[Metus regem]

Imperius, on 20 March 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

Go look up the Highlander IIC... Yup you're done... IIC mechs are both Clan and IS, but are considered Clan by PGI

Bad example, the IIC are Clan rebuilds of classic Star League mechs, aside from a few basic things, they are not the same brach of the family tree, they are a new brach sprouting from the same core brach as the IS counterparts. In 3053, you do not see IIC mechs in the Random Unit Assignment Tables in any source book for IS faction in TT, that changes post 3059 though.

My point Imperius is really simple, if and when they move CW to a post 3059 relm, based on the RUAT's the Mad Cat Mk II would be available to all factions. Something I think you'd be happy with, as no mater who your unit took a contract with, you'd be able to drop in it.

I just see the Mech as the tip of a balance nightmare that is post 3059+, as that is the era that brings the Fafnir with her AC/20 invalidating Heavy Gauss Rifles, and that is a whole slew of problems....

[Imperius]

Metus regem, on 20 March 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Bad example, the IIC are Clan rebuilds of classic Star League mechs, aside from a few basic things, they are not the same brach of the family tree, they are a new brach sprouting from the same core brach as the IS counterparts. In 3053, you do not see IIC mechs in the Random Unit Assignment Tables in any source book for IS faction in TT, that changes post 3059 though.

My point Imperius is really simple, if and when they move CW to a post 3059 relm, based on the RUAT's the Mad Cat Mk II would be available to all factions. Something I think you'd be happy with, as no mater who your unit took a contract with, you'd be able to drop in it.

I just see the Mech as the tip of a balance nightmare that is post 3059+, as that is the era that brings the Fafnir with her AC/20 invalidating Heavy Gauss Rifles, and that is a whole slew of problems....

Again it's a non issue because we have mechs form 3068 already and the Wolf Dragoons used the IIC, CW isn't moving out of 3053 any time soon if ever. As for the rest of the game it has zero impact. When PGI discusses moving the only place the timeline mattered (CW) forward, I'm sure it will just end up like pug matches with CW drops...

Russ already said the mech will come in with current tech, until tech 2 is a thing, this is another non-issue. All mech chassis or variants that have current tech or tech easily fudged i.e. Heavy laser = ER large... Then it can make it in. See mauler rotary cannon

Edited by Imperius, 20 March 2016 - 05:33 PM.

[Archangel.84]

Imperius, on 20 March 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

IIC mechs are both Clan and IS

Wat. No, they're not.

[Imperius]

Archangel.84, on 20 March 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Wat. No, they're not.

Wolf Dragoons... Since he's grasping at straws, I'll use this edge case

Edited by Imperius, 20 March 2016 - 05:36 PM.

[Archangel.84]

were a Clan unit posing as mercenaries working for the various Great Houses while they gathered intelligence to send back to the Grand Council in order to decide if the Clans should invade or not. As a Clan unit, they obviously had Clan tech (which they essentially kept hidden until Operation Revival was underway).

IIC Mechs - not Inner Sphere.

[Imperius]

http://www.masteruni...er-iic-standard

[Metus regem]

Imperius, on 20 March 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

Russ already said the mech will come in with current tech, until tech 2 is a thing, this is another non-issue.

We already have a bunch of Tech Level 2 kit for IS, and a ton of it for Clans..... Yes we are missing a few things for IS, but Tech level 2 is in play... Tech level 3 is where **** gets really weird....

And your right Russ did say when they have easy to fudge Tech, but Hardened Armour is not easy to fudge, improved JJ's are not easy to fudge and Mech med kits (HARJEL III) sure as hell are not easy to fudge...

As for the Dragoons using IIC's according to the TT rule books, nope standard Star League era mechs.

[Archangel.84]

Imperius, on 20 March 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

http://www.masteruni...er-iic-standard

Yes and?


Also worth noting: the Dragoons were outright producing the Dire Wolf and Kit Fox, plus maybe the Hellbringer, on Outreach. That's how Victor Steiner-Davion and Hohiro Kurita got theirs.

[Imperius]

Metus regem, on 20 March 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

We already have a bunch of Tech Level 2 kit for IS, and a ton of it for Clans..... Yes we are missing a few things for IS, but Tech level 2 is in play... Tech level 3 is where **** gets really weird....

And your right Russ did say when they have easy to fudge Tech, but Hardened Armour is not easy to fudge, improved JJ's are not easy to fudge and Mech med kits (HARJEL III) sure as hell are not easy to fudge...

As for the Dragoons using IIC's according to the TT rule books, nope standard Star League era mechs.

We wouldn't get the hardened armor one, as for Harjell 3 according to Sarna... It does nothing, yes I know in tt it healed legs, but Sarna says its foam... So oops, looks like we ignore it.

No assault mechs have real JJ duh

Archangel.84, on 20 March 2016 - 05:50 PM, said:

Yes and?


Also worth noting: the Dragoons were outright producing the Dire Wolf and Kit Fox, plus maybe the Hellbringer, on Outreach. That's how Victor Steiner-Davion and Hohiro Kurita got theirs.

I'm just throwing random edge cases like he is... That's all, I can't believe Metus is even siding with him a little. Reguardless, all those points are still non-issues.

Edited by Imperius, 20 March 2016 - 06:00 PM.

[Metus regem]

Imperius, on 20 March 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

I'm just throwing random edge cases like he is... That's all, I can't believe Metus is even siding with him a little. Reguardless, all those points are still non-issues.

I'm not siding with Scarecrow, I recognize that the Mk II is a Clan Mech in production, yet fielded by IS forces. I see Clan Nova Cat as well as Wolf in Exile as Clans, just with interests sided with IS forces. The only Clans that go full IS, is Clan Ghost Bear when they become the Ghsot Bear Domnion, later the Rasalhague Domnion, and Snow Raven whey Snow Raven forms the Raven Alliance....

If me siding with Scarecrow is from me going "hey there is a can of worms that comes with the Mk II, and I'd like PGI to have a plan on how to deal with them before going whole hog into 3059+", then I don't know what to say....

[Imperius]

Metus regem, on 20 March 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

I'm not siding with Scarecrow, I recognize that the Mk II is a Clan Mech in production, yet fielded by IS forces. I see Clan Nova Cat as well as Wolf in Exile as Clans, just with interests sided with IS forces. The only Clans that go full IS, is Clan Ghost Bear when they become the Ghsot Bear Domnion, later the Rasalhague Domnion, and Snow Raven whey Snow Raven forms the Raven Alliance....

If me siding with Scarecrow is from me going "hey there is a can of worms that comes with the Mk II, and I'd like PGI to have a plan on how to deal with them before going whole hog into 3059+", then I don't know what to say....

Technically the Kodiak 3 has us already into 3068, no worms showed up, yet somehow the MK II advances CW and MWO forward? No...

The Mad Cat MK II is just a chunk of polygons, not a time machine.

There is no can of worms, but people keep looking for them... Why? Dunno, some agendas still at play? Maybe?

Edited by Imperius, 20 March 2016 - 06:56 PM.

[Archangel.84]

The Kodiak - the base chassis - is from much earlier. As has been pointed out.

Imperius, on 20 March 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

I'm just throwing random edge cases like he is... That's all, I can't believe Metus is even siding with him a little. Reguardless, all those points are still non-issues.

There's nothing in that link to indicate the Highlander IIC is an "edge case."

Edited by Archangel.84, 20 March 2016 - 07:14 PM.

[Imperius]

Archangel.84, on 20 March 2016 - 07:13 PM, said:

The Kodiak - the base chassis - is from much earlier. As has been pointed out.



There's nothing in that link to indicate the Highlander IIC is an "edge case."

If you click where it says factions it shows wolf Dragoons, which is IS

ANYWAY FOR THE LAST TIME

Edited by Imperius, 20 March 2016 - 07:20 PM.

[Imperius]

The fact I constantly have to link that is getting old...

THE MAD CAT MK II is just a Clan Battlemech, with high mounted hardpoints and, good speed for an assault.

It is not a Time Machine
It is not the rapture
It is not <insert next straw man>

Edited by Imperius, 20 March 2016 - 07:30 PM.