106 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

So, with the new flamer coming online... 4.5 HPS...

If someone is hitting you with 2 flamers, you will receive the about same heat as if you are firing a PPC every single second. Quad flamers? Same heat is if you are firing 2 PPCs every single second.

Instead of basing a discussion on some video of a Mech running SHS, we should discuss this using actually valid information. Comparing the heat of flamers to firing weapons is a valid discussion, not some BS about a Mech with SHS.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 February 2016 - 12:00 PM.

[FupDup]

For reference, a mech with 10 Trudubs and 2x Efficiencies will dissipate 2.3 heat per second.

It appears that a Clan mech with 23 DHS (10 of which are Trudubs) will dissipate 4.54 heat per second...so that means a mech with 22 DHS can be heated up by one Flamer, even without firing any weapons.

On the IS side, it takes 24 DHS (4.55 heat per second) to dissipate more heat than one Flamer can generate.

Edited by FupDup, 15 February 2016 - 12:07 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Weather the mech had SHS or not

How long can you sustain firing "1-2 PPCs per second"

The answer, about 3-4 seconds

[Lukoi Banacek]

DV McKenna, on 15 February 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Weather the mech had SHS or not

How long can you sustain firing "1-2 PPCs per second"

The answer, about 3-4 seconds

Till it caps at 90% and you wish you were running twin-gauss.

[Mcgral18]

I think I'll go head-hunting:
NVA-6SPL 3 Flamer

Something to that effect. It can fire 2 SPL even Flamed at 90% heat...assuming the Flamer doesn't affect your heat output (7 heat cap left, 2 SPLs=6 heat)

Also, TIL, The Nova can have 18% less Pulse Laser heat, if it takes 6 E hardpoints (both S arms, both Prime STs). I might also try 6 MPLs. Under 5 heat per laser. Only 17 heatsinks, though.

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 February 2016 - 12:22 PM.

[Deathlike]

It will be a glorious experiment... either way.

[627]

you can still move, jump and fire some ballistics while the flaming guy will likely overheat himself.

[Mcgral18]

For comparison's sake, the mech we can see be Flamed here:
https://youtu.be/Xe-GL_SPt90?t=1m11s

Has 10 SHS, and likely no efficiencies (and not Doubled, no speed tweak)

According to Smurfy, a 10SHS has a 50 heat cap? I don't know about that...it should be 30 plus 12, no?

<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.2" engineCooling="0.11" cooling="0.12"/>

Doesn't affect the math, but I guess I learned something new about something I'll never use.
Apparently SHS have the same +2 to heat cap in the engine (Smurfy heatcap numbers go down when you take a sub-250 engine)


As Fup says, 10 TrueDubs with the 20% heat cap boost means you have a 60 heat cap.
Dual Gauss, as always, will be able to go forever. I don't think any Light will stick around for that. But, they can only do an ERML on top of those, no LPLs while at 90%.

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 February 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[Otto Cannon]

I'd prefer to see a flamer reduce target cooling by XX%, and not stack with multiple flamers. Job done- no stunlock and a valid brawling tool that can't be boated and discourages all-energy builds.

[1453 R]

Flamers aren't about stunlocking a guy for minutes at a time. In their current state, I see them as being really useful for brawlers looking to quickly spike an opponent's heat and maybe surprise them into a shutdown. With how insubstantial the new flamer graphic is, you can hose somebody down and if they're not paying real close attention, they could get caught up in the rhythm of battle and fire again.

Or they could catch your attempt to backstab them into a shutdown and not fire again...at which point, they're not firing and you are.

Flamer tricks will make for some interesting new brawly fights, methinks. Especially for heat-hyperefficient brawlers that can really lay on the flamer pressure, or coordinated light pairs of flamer 'Mech and hitter 'Mech preying on poor suckers. However it goes, for the first time in MWO history the flamer may end up being relevant.

That's something to celebrate, methinks.

[Aetes Nakatomi]

My Daka Mauler that never goes above 10 heat approves of super flamers. I Might even switch my two medium laser backup weapons to pair of flamers for funz.

[MrJeffers]

For reference the Timber C (C ) champion build, which isn't bad, has these stats with double basics:
Dissipation rate 4.89 hps
Heat Capacity 79.80

So 90% of that would be 71.82 heat.

Assuming nothing else going on, the Timber can dissipate the first flamer's 4.5 hps and a touch more. With 2 flamers they impart ~ 19 heat before the flamers start their heat increase on the source mech.

Now getting to something like a 6 flamer Nova it's going to impart ~22hps on that same timber so it could dump the full 90% into it before the feedback heat affects the nova. And that's assuming the timber was at 0 to start, with the Timber running around in combat, in one or two seconds the Nova is going to be able to put that mech up to 90%. Nova Prime arms might be worth something...

[Thunder Child]

The decider for how effective they are going to be will depend entirely on how they affect the firer. Yes, it will be possible to heatlock someone at 90% (It's not a Stunlock, because they CAN still do things, they just can't ALPHA ALL THE LAZORZ).

Remember that vid with the Single Flamer Stalker? The Exponential Heat Buildup stacks VERY Fast, so sustained fire is not an option. And Multiple Flamers Stack the exponential heat buildup, and the buildup will start at 4.75 secs instead of 6.25 secs, so it could be entirely possible to shut yourself down while flaming if you're not careful. And your heat won't be limited to 90%.
Also, bear in mind that as soon as your Flamers move off target, or you stop flaming, the target immediately begins cooling. You do not. You still need to wait for the exponential buildup to fall off, which if I remember correctly, is the same amount of time that the flamers were running.

All said and done, wait for the patch before declaring that the world is ending.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I just want people to think about this from a realistic perspective. Think in terms of how fast flamers can overheat Mechs with a realistic yardstick (# of PPCs fired per second).

Honestly, I think it was irresponsible and insulting to "present" the New Flamer in the way that NGNG did. They showed it in a completely unrealistic fashion and expected us to believe that as an "in-game implementation" when deploying it against a Mech with 10 SHS.

How stupid do they think I am? Do they think I, or anyone else in that manner, will be running around in a 60 ton laser and ballistic Mech with just 10 SHS? That's actually rude as far as I am concerned.

[FupDup]

Prosperity Park, on 15 February 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

I just want people to think about this from a realistic perspective. Think in terms of how fast flamers can overheat Mechs with a realistic yardstick (# of PPCs fired per second).

Honestly, I think it was irresponsible and insulting to "present" the New Flamer in the way that NGNG did. They showed it in a completely unrealistic fashion and expected us to believe that as an "in-game implementation" when deploying it against a Mech with 10 SHS.

How stupid do they think I am? Do they think I, or anyone else in that manner, will be running around in a 60 ton laser and ballistic Mech with just 10 SHS? That's actually rude as far as I am concerned.

NGNG demonstrations have often had issues, most notably with mech testing duels (e.g. the enemy mech uses a really bad loadout and plays the game extremely poorly). Their weird screenshots with fisheye and other distorted perspectives are another thing they've done before...

[Mcgral18]

Prosperity Park, on 15 February 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

I just want people to think about this from a realistic perspective. Think in terms of how fast flamers can overheat Mechs with a realistic yardstick (# of PPCs fired per second).

Honestly, I think it was irresponsible and insulting to "present" the New Flamer in the way that NGNG did. They showed it in a completely unrealistic fashion and expected us to believe that as an "in-game implementation" when deploying it against a Mech with 10 SHS.

How stupid do they think I am? Do they think I, or anyone else in that manner, will be running around in a 60 ton laser and ballistic Mech with just 10 SHS? That's actually rude as far as I am concerned.

The difference in heat caps isn't very much.

A 25 cDHS mech with doubled basics has under an 80 heat cap, to the 50 of the demonstration video. Dissipation is the bigger difference, of course, but the heat cap is what will limit your weapon capacity while at 90%.


I'll be doing some experimentation after the patch...assuming I can stop sneezing long enough.

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 February 2016 - 01:12 PM.

[1453 R]

Will be trying this Stormcrow, for purposes of seeing if mixing in brief flamer baths whilst brawling with an otherwise heat-efficient design can induce errors in opponents' play.

Should be fun to try, at the least. I can't even remember the last time I equipped a flamer to a 'Mech for anything but raw lulz. Heh...I love how people are kvetching about flamers potentially being Actually Kinda Good At Their Jobs after years and years and years of "FIX FLAMERS ALREADY!"

[Roadkill]

Thunder Child, on 15 February 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

Remember that vid with the Single Flamer Stalker? The Exponential Heat Buildup stacks VERY Fast, so sustained fire is not an option.

Trigger setup:

1: Flamer, Flamer, Flamer
2: Flamer, Flamer, Flamer
3: ALL TEH FLAMEZORSES!!!

Fire trigger 3 for ~4 seconds. Much heat ensues.
Switch to holding 1 & 2 on chain fire. Suffient flaming ensues to keep target capped. Forever, with no geometric heat accumulation.

Profit.

[Felicitatem Parco]

1453 R, on 15 February 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

I can't even remember the last time I equipped a flamer to a 'Mech for anything but raw lulz. Heh...I love how people are kvetching about flamers potentially being Actually Kinda Good At Their Jobs after years and years and years of "FIX FLAMERS ALREADY"

Well, you know how this game works: If something needs adjustment, you either tweak it by 0.5%, or by 5000%. No in-between.

I think this will make some people unhappy when their all-energy Mechs that are physically incapable of mounting SRMs or Ballistics find themselves in a crummy spot.

However, it certainly encourages the use of SPLs since they are the most heat-efficient laser in the game and can be used when you're tagged at 90%, albeit with chain firing.

I just thought the New Flamer would be publicly tested first on the Public Test Server... Where you test things prior to live release.

[Lukoi Banacek]

When I see flamer mechs running at me in my all-energy builds I'm gonna run away screaming for help from someone to shoot it, SHOOT IT SHOOOOOOT IT!!!!