- Flamer does damage with some animation ... it's like a MG with different characteristics
- Flamer has a chance to put a "on fire" tag on a mech (like NARC)
- Multiple flamers do their damage, and increase chance for "on fire" but follow-on "on fire" tags overwrite the last one - i.e., durations don't stack
- While a mech is "on fire" they get a heat penalty
- "On fire" goes away after a set period of time (not huge, but a bit)
- For bigger deals, "on fire" could be per-location, based on where the flamer hit, so the small penalties stack.
Then they could include inferno launchers, which do the same but would have a 100% chance to start the "on fire" tag.
Best part? We could add an animation (like we have for smoke) AND FREAKING SET MECHS ON FIRE WHO WOULD BE RUNNING AROUND ON FREAKING FIRE
So am I to understand all the flamer-er has to do to avoid heating themselves up while using he flamer is to stop firong for a moment? Like are we talking the same pause required to negate gost heat when firing a 4th Llas?
If you want to discuss new Flamers, why not use a video showing it?
The Rifleman peek video has one of the players on 2 matches using them, you can tell from the new visual effect. At least once the Firestarter is using them on Phil's Rifleman especially since Phil's build is all Energy. There was an earlier match with the Firestarter but I cannot find where in the vid it is now.
So am I to understand all the flamer-er has to do to avoid heating themselves up while using he flamer is to stop firong for a moment? Like are we talking the same pause required to negate gost heat when firing a 4th Llas?
yes - fire the flamers for less than 4.75 seconds and you suffer zero heat. So hold a burst fire of all of them for 4 seconds, then chain fire them and you'll not see the heat backfeed on the flamers.
Lily from animove, on 16 February 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:
I am confused, even a single flamer could heat yourself up into overheating, was this changed too?
can we now really fire 3 flamers endless without heating up?
Raso, on 16 February 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:
So am I to understand all the flamer-er has to do to avoid heating themselves up while using he flamer is to stop firong for a moment? Like are we talking the same pause required to negate gost heat when firing a 4th Llas?
Flamer heat on the firer is exponential, but it starts out extermely low. All you have to do to avoid the exponential heat curve is chain fire them. Or if that's too much trouble, simply stop firing briefly every 4 seconds or so.
2 Flamers generate ~9 heat on the target per second. After ~4 seconds the firer will also start to overheat rapidly unless they stop firing briefly to reset the exponential curve.
So as already mentioned, simply have 2 triggers. One fires all of your flamers and is used for 4 seconds to rapidly heat the target to the 90% cap, then the other simply chain fires the flamers to keep the target at the cap.
Prosperity Park, on 15 February 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:
So, with the new flamer coming online... 4.5 HPS...
If someone is hitting you with 2 flamers, you will receive the about same heat as if you are firing a PPC every single second. Quad flamers? Same heat is if you are firing 2 PPCs every single second.
Instead of basing a discussion on some video of a Mech running SHS, we should discuss this using actually valid information. Comparing the heat of flamers to firing weapons is a valid discussion, not some BS about a Mech with SHS.
FupDup, on 15 February 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:
For reference, a mech with 10 Trudubs and 2x Efficiencies will dissipate 2.3 heat per second.
It appears that a Clan mech with 23 DHS (10 of which are Trudubs) will dissipate 4.54 heat per second...so that means a mech with 22 DHS can be heated up by one Flamer, even without firing any weapons.
On the IS side, it takes 24 DHS (4.55 heat per second) to dissipate more heat than one Flamer can generate.
Math? That's not how things are done 'round here. Please refer to the following:
you can still move, jump and fire some ballistics while the flaming guy will likely overheat himself.
This. To make Flamers useful, they should cap the heat they generate for the user, too. It's kind of goofy you have a one-ton weapon that is actually more dangerous to use than not.
Good thing I love running ballistic builds atm so those flamers aren't that powerful vs. me. You can always fire AC5s, LBX or Gauss as long as you want to, no matter how high your heat meter is. But I'll be more cautious firing lasers when nasty flamers are around.
Lily from animove, on 16 February 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:
I am confused, even a single flamer could heat yourself up into overheating, was this changed too?
can we now really fire 3 flamers endless without heating up?
When you chainfire a stack, you remove the exponential/quadratic gain.
MrJeffers, on 16 February 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:
yes - fire the flamers for less than 4.75 seconds and you suffer zero heat. So hold a burst fire of all of them for 4 seconds, then chain fire them and you'll not see the heat backfeed on the flamers.
Not zero, just 1 H/s.
Your dissipation is above that, for a time.
Lukoi Banacek, on 15 February 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:
When I see flamer mechs running at me in my all-energy builds I'm gonna run away screaming for help from someone to shoot it, SHOOT IT SHOOOOOOT IT!!!!
Then you'll want to stay far away from my Locust the "Jackrabbit", it carries 4 Flamers and a Med Laser. I built it as a joke as it was a mech I built in the original TT game Battletech to kill Atlases... to great effect. With the changes comming to flamers it might actually work as intended... assuming it can get close enough to use them.
Well I have run versions of Jenner IIC with 2 & 4 flammers all morning and DANG!!!
Consistently shutdown enemy mechs (& twice myself)
Seems a bit like NARC play to me, not a lot of damage though supports the team very well. After we all get over the testing phase I imagine we will see 'less' flaming trolls.
Nice to be able to load a flamer in a spare slot now as a back up weapon o7
..and I love the new flamer graphics!
When you chainfire a stack, you remove the exponential/quadratic gain.
Not zero, just 1 H/s.
Your dissipation is above that, for a time.
This is incorrect.
To be very clear: chain firing flamers does not prevent exponential heat gain.
It just slows it dramatically, at the cost of greatly slowing inflicted heat as well.
it *SEEMS* to stop the heat gain, because it takes a lot longer to ramp up.
What actually happens is that the game keeps a counter for number of flamers firing*time firing.
Chainfiring 2 flamers(or any number >1, it's irrelevant how many) will still cause exponential heat gain. And once it starts, it takes progressively longer not firing any flamers at all to stop it - the expo heat gain doesn't go away as soon as you stop firing.
You can NOT permanently hold someone at 90% heat. It's impossible.
Will put together a video demonstrating this shortly.
Edit: It *may* be possible to build a macro timed to stay heat neutral, I'm not commenting either way there as I haven't worked out the math yet, but you cannot do it chain firing.
Edited by Wintersdark, 17 February 2016 - 02:14 PM.
Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:
This is incorrect.
To be very clear: chain firing flamers does not prevent exponential heat gain.
It just slows it dramatically, at the cost of greatly slowing inflicted heat as well.
it *SEEMS* to stop the heat gain, because it takes a lot longer to ramp up.
What actually happens is that the game keeps a counter for number of flamers firing*time firing.
Chainfiring 2 flamers(or any number >1, it's irrelevant how many) will still cause exponential heat gain. And once it starts, it takes progressively longer not firing any flamers at all to stop it - the expo heat gain doesn't go away as soon as you stop firing.
You can NOT permanently hold someone at 90% heat. It's impossible.
Will put together a video demonstrating this shortly.
Edit: It *may* be possible to build a macro timed to stay heat neutral, I'm not commenting either way there as I haven't worked out the math yet, but you cannot do it chain firing.
With the Macro it's possible, but not Chainfire.
Chainfire just slowly builds to 4.75s, the the heat steps up
Here we go, chainfire testing, on an Adder stuffed full of DHS (as many as can physically fit, I forget exactly how many):
Observations:
1) At 30s, the heat generation chainfiring 3 flamers has exceeded the DHS's ability to dissipate.
2) After heatcapping, I pause for a couple seconds, then start firing 2 totally different flamers. This pause does not reset the increased heat generation: the increased amount of heat generation takes as long to go away as it did to generate.
Conclusions:
1) Barring strange timing macros (it MAY be possible to set up the timing in a heat neutral fashion, but I'd want to see what kind of heat that inflicted on your target as well) you cannot permanently cook someone with flamers. These can fire a long time, but ultimately that's only one flamer inflicting a flat amount of heat on your target - generally not enough to actually build heat (or only to build it very slowly) so it's not going to be a magic I-WIN button (as you still have to be within 90m, AND maintain 100% face time).
2) You build up the increased heat generation VERY quickly firing multiple flamers (not shown); once built, it still exists when chainfiring - however, as you're only firing one flamer at a time then, the resulting heat generation is of course much lower than when firing lots. Thus, you CAN fire lots of flamers to heat someone up, then chainfire to maintain it, but the amount of time you can maintain a target at 90% heat is substantially reduced in that instance.
Mcgral18, on 17 February 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:
With the Macro it's possible, but not Chainfire.
Chainfire just slowly builds to 4.75s, the the heat steps up
The Macro can avoid the heat stepping up.
What's the timing on the macro? I'm trying to work out the math with it.
As things currently stand - completely ignoring macro timing, just using in-game stuff - I'm actually pretty happy with how flamers work. As such, I'd strongly prefer to not ravage flamers as they currently stand to break a macro that isn't particularly powerful.
Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:
Edit: It *may* be possible to build a macro timed to stay heat neutral, I'm not commenting either way there as I haven't worked out the math yet, but you cannot do it chain firing.
There is already a video showing heat neutral flamers with a macro. You can simulate the effect simply by spam clicking your flamers (all of them at once). Burn your target for a 1-2 second burn and then start spam clicking your flamer alpha.
The other post suggests at .15 second burn and a .25 second delay before the next burn.
I think realistically anything with close to a 1 to 2 ratio will work. Maybe even 1 to 1 will work.
There is already a video showing heat neutral flamers with a macro. You can simulate the effect simply by spam clicking your flamers (all of them at once). Burn your target for a 1-2 second burn and then start spam clicking your flamer alpha.
That seems to be a bug that needs fixing, not a flamer design problem. How much heat does that generate on your target?
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