106 replies to this topic

[pwnface]

thanks for testing for us

[Bilbo]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

It IS broken, but it's not very severe, depending on how this test works out. After all, holding 90m with someone isn't easy (that's REALLY close) when people are rarely alone - it's REALLY easy for their buddies to tear you apart.

That's what makes this hard in practice.

Then, even when tapped, 6 flamers do generate heat. It doesn't increase, but it's still enough to stop you from cooling (unless I'm tapping more than I need to!) so the question is:

Can you actually kill someone in a reasonable time frame WHILE holding them at 90% heat.



Ok, just did a test in which my video recording software failed utterly, but here were the results:

Nova, 6 ERSL, 4MG, 6 Flamers, vs. well cooled Black Knight laser vomit build with Terciel.

Firing the flamers with just a quick tap roughly once per second could hold him at 85-90% heat. Doing that, I would cool, allowing me to fire the 4 machine guns and 6 ERSL's pretty much all day without effort.

He was able to return fire, but only by overriding shutdown, as any amount of laser fire would push over 100% heat.

I suspect he may have been able to chainfire medium lasers, but chainfired mediums have no chance against 4mg/6ersl's.

In practice where? In group settings, especially larger groups, it probably is not game breaking. In the solo queue in lower tiers, it will be ridiculously powerful. On the plus side, it might make me embrace the death ball.

[Wintersdark]

Bilbo, on 17 February 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

In practice where? In group settings, especially larger groups, it probably is not game breaking. In the solo queue in lower tiers, it will be ridiculously powerful. On the plus side, it might make me embrace the death ball.

Well, I'll post the "practical use" video shortly. It's pretty broken at it stands. But, that IS at 90m, assuming your target doesn't just move away, that you can maintain mostly 100% face time, and that your targets friends don't just core your back out.

Also, that said target isn't packing ballistics.

[pwnface]

I think the realistic use case is to send a few lights to flamer people at the start of a brawl push. Lights sacrifice a little damage potential to reduce the effectiveness of enemy assault and heavy mechs severely.

[Wintersdark]

Ok, here we go with a legit fighting build.

In both cases, testing how much heatcap is required to push your target to 90% and hold them there: basically, 10% on a cold map, 20% on a hot map; though you're still cooling while doing that.

Even holding down the 4SPL's, total heat never tops 50% in the Caldera - that's still extremely efficient.

Edited by Wintersdark, 17 February 2016 - 05:01 PM.

[pwnface]

These need to be tweeted at Russ.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 15 February 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

So, with the new flamer coming online... 4.5 HPS...

If someone is hitting you with 2 flamers, you will receive the about same heat as if you are firing a PPC every single second. Quad flamers? Same heat is if you are firing 2 PPCs every single second.

Instead of basing a discussion on some video of a Mech running SHS, we should discuss this using actually valid information. Comparing the heat of flamers to firing weapons is a valid discussion, not some BS about a Mech with SHS.

Anyone run flamers against the Hellslinger yet to see if it's environmental heat quirks offset it, any?

[Wintersdark]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 17 February 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

Not exactly.
You don't need alpha to kill an enemy who is overheated or running away from you because you keep him at 90% heat. This is 12vs12 game, you could have 0dmg but instantly eliminate enemies by overheating them and you will make your team win every time. Yeah, 0 dmg suck, but then in a group/CW you could switch who is the walking flamer.

Also, you have 10 less alpha, but you can "steal" hundreds of damage from the enemies, forcing them to chainfire slowly instead of alphaing. So from situation like 50alpha you vs 50 alpha enemy, you go to 40 alpha you vs 10 alpha enemy. It still totally favours you.

In theory, but in practical use:

1) You can't overheat anyone. You can prevent them from firing lasers, but that's it. When everyone is in a laser boat, that's great, but that can change pretty much instantly.

2) To heatcap someone, you have to be within 90m of them. For everyone you have heatcapping someone, you could have had an Arctic Cheetah tearing them apart with SPL's, without having to be nearly as close and vulnerable to other mechs.

Ignoring the current issue with tapping to hold a heatcap without heat yourself, it's still highly situational and I do think that simply killing people is better than making them not fire a couple weapons.



However, with the current issue, a light with both flamers and spl's could be a very serious threat, as they can keep that up forever.

[Bilbo]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

Well, I'll post the "practical use" video shortly. It's pretty broken at it stands. But, that IS at 90m, assuming your target doesn't just move away, that you can maintain mostly 100% face time, and that your targets friends don't just core your back out.

Also, that said target isn't packing ballistics.

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

Ok, here we go with a legit fighting build.

In both cases, testing how much heatcap is required to push your target to 90% and hold them there: basically, 10% on a cold map, 20% on a hot map; though you're still cooling while doing that.

Even holding down the 4SPL's, total heat never tops 50% in the Caldera - that's still extremely efficient.

In actual practice, though, you only need to hold ninety meters, and need not actually stand still. Also let's not forget that you aren't going to be without friends either.

[Wintersdark]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

These need to be tweeted at Russ.

I am

[Wintersdark]

Bilbo, on 17 February 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

In actual practice, though, you only need to hold ninety meters, and need not actually stand still. Also let's not forget that you aren't going to be without friends either.

Yeah, this is a serious issue that needs to be fixed. Without being able to avoid the heat gain, it's fine (because holding 90m AND 100% face time is hard and makes you very vulnerable).

To be clear: The concept of the flamer mechanics are fine, and if you couldn't avoid the increasing heat this way it'd be ok. However, because you can both minimize the heat you generate yourself AND prevent it from increasing, it's trivial to hold someone heatcapped without even increasing your own heat at all.

Russ mentioned a minimum burn time on flamers - I suspect that would fix this entirely.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

In theory, but in practical use:

1) You can't overheat anyone. You can prevent them from firing lasers, but that's it. When everyone is in a laser boat, that's great, but that can change pretty much instantly.

2) To heatcap someone, you have to be within 90m of them. For everyone you have heatcapping someone, you could have had an Arctic Cheetah tearing them apart with SPL's, without having to be nearly as close and vulnerable to other mechs.

Ignoring the current issue with tapping to hold a heatcap without heat yourself, it's still highly situational and I do think that simply killing people is better than making them not fire a couple weapons.



However, with the current issue, a light with both flamers and spl's could be a very serious threat, as they can keep that up forever.

A different way of looking at it is a series of trades.

It's like taking the RT off a Hellbringer (or LT of a Thunderbolt-9SE)... if you can suppress/mitigate the damage dealt by one mech by Flamers, it is a favorable trade (of course, it assumes the target isn't dakka heavy - like dual Gauss builds). It's simply a different method of accomplishing it.

The thing is such a trade has to have a counter - if the Flaming mech generates minimal heat, it's a great trade... but it's bad for balance as heat should be the factor for Flamers that limits its effectiveness.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 February 2016 - 05:23 PM.

[Bilbo]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Yeah, this is a serious issue that needs to be fixed. Without being able to avoid the heat gain, it's fine (because holding 90m AND 100% face time is hard and makes you very vulnerable).

To be clear: The concept of the flamer mechanics are fine, and if you couldn't avoid the increasing heat this way it'd be ok. However, because you can both minimize the heat you generate yourself AND prevent it from increasing, it's trivial to hold someone heatcapped without even increasing your own heat at all.

Russ mentioned a minimum burn time on flamers - I suspect that would fix this entirely.

I don't have an issue with how they are supposed to work. As you say, a minimum burn time would probably fix the problem.

[PocketYoda]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

In theory, but in practical use:

1) You can't overheat anyone. You can prevent them from firing lasers, but that's it. When everyone is in a laser boat, that's great, but that can change pretty much instantly.

It has nothing to do with laser boats... at 90% heat you stop them effectively using any weapons.. even guass uses heat, ballistics a lot of heat at 90% as with missiles a lot of heat...

At 90% your are effectively ******..

Edited by Samial, 17 February 2016 - 05:37 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 17 February 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

A different way of looking at it is a series of trades.

It's like taking the RT off a Hellbringer (or LT of a Thunderbolt-9SE)... if you can suppress/mitigate the damage dealt by one mech by Flamers, it is a favorable trade (of course, it assumes the target isn't dakka heavy - like dual Gauss builds). It's simply a different method of accomplishing it.

The thing is such a trade has to have a counter - if the Flaming mech generates minimal heat, it's a great trade... but it's bad for balance as heat should be the factor for Flamers that limits its effectiveness.

It should be, but 90m is also a substantial limiting factor. Unlike lasers, even lasers with a 90m range, flamer effectiveness is zero at 91m.

90m is EXTREMELY close.

I've been running them a lot, trying to abuse them. HBK IIC-A with 2 LPL, 4 Flamers - it can heatcap a mech FAST, and hold them there, while being cool enough to run the 2 LPL effectively.

But as of yet, I've been unable to really get a lot out of the flamers, because opportunity to close within 90m and stay there is very limited.

That said, that doesn't make them bad. It just doesn't make them OP. They shouldn't be able to be used essentially heat free of course, absolutely not, but their inherent limitations are a significant downside and opportunity cost as it stands.

[Wintersdark]

Samial, on 17 February 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

It has nothing to do with laser boats... at 90% heat you stop them effectively using any weapons.. even guass uses heat, ballistics a lot of heat at 90% as with missiles a lot of heat...

At 90% your are effectively ******..

No.

Why? Gauss generates 1 heat. You cool more than 1HPS with any build, even a flat 10 SHS build. The flamers do NOTHING after 10%. A typical mech has 60-80 heat cap. 90-100% means you have 10% capacity free; that is, 6-8 heat. Your DHS work fine after that, cooling you as fast as they normally would.

Anything you could firing being heat neutral, then, you can continue to fire.

So, not just Gauss. A 71 heat cap mech can still drop AC20 rounds in your face while held at 90% heat.

In my last match, I held a 2ac2 2ac5 Mauler at 90% heat with my 4 Flamer 2 LPL hunchback. He killed me while I did that. 2 AC5 generates 2 heat, 1.6 HPS.

Bilbo, on 17 February 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

I don't have an issue with how they are supposed to work. As you say, a minimum burn time would probably fix the problem.

He's talking .5s, and that should work. At .5s, to avoid the increased heat generation you'd have to tap, and then wait .51s+ after the burn stopped before tapping again - so you'd be forced to below 50% effectiveness. You'd still be able to make a macro that fired them without generating increasing heat, but it would be substantially less effective because you couldn't abuse the tick heat.

[Bilbo]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

No.

Why? Gauss generates 1 heat. You cool more than 1HPS with any build, even a flat 10 SHS build. The flamers do NOTHING after 10%. A typical mech has 60-80 heat cap. 90-100% means you have 10% capacity free; that is, 6-8 heat. Your DHS work fine after that, cooling you as fast as they normally would.

Anything you could firing being heat neutral, then, you can continue to fire.

So, not just Gauss. A 71 heat cap mech can still drop AC20 rounds in your face while held at 90% heat.

In my last match, I held a 2ac2 2ac5 Mauler at 90% heat with my 4 Flamer 2 LPL hunchback. He killed me while I did that. 2 AC5 generates 2 heat, 1.6 HPS.


He's talking .5s, and that should work. At .5s, to avoid the increased heat generation you'd have to tap, and then wait .51s+ after the burn stopped before tapping again - so you'd be forced to below 50% effectiveness. You'd still be able to make a macro that fired them without generating increasing heat, but it would be substantially less effective because you couldn't abuse the tick heat.

The macro is not really the problem. That you can apply full heat, or near enough, on every tick is the problem.

[Wintersdark]

Bilbo, on 17 February 2016 - 11:59 PM, said:

The macro is not really the problem. That you can apply full heat, or near enough, on every tick is the problem.

yeah, that's what I said.

It's not about macros at all.

But with a .5 second burn with each tap, you'd need > 0.5s waiting after each burn to avoid increasing heat (to maximize it, you need more time not firing than firing, after all). At .5s burns, you'd have to pulse much slower, so you couldn't abuse it nearly as much. It's much more efficient currently, when you rapidly tap the button.

What I was saying is you could still avoid increasing heat, but with that .5 burn, you'd be very inefficient in comparison. A macro could maximize it, but would t be worthwhile: you won't have an opportunity to do it long enough to matter at tat scale.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

In theory, but in practical use:

1) You can't overheat anyone. You can prevent them from firing lasers, but that's it. When everyone is in a laser boat, that's great, but that can change pretty much instantly.

2) To heatcap someone, you have to be within 90m of them. For everyone you have heatcapping someone, you could have had an Arctic Cheetah tearing them apart with SPL's, without having to be nearly as close and vulnerable to other mechs.

Ignoring the current issue with tapping to hold a heatcap without heat yourself, it's still highly situational and I do think that simply killing people is better than making them not fire a couple weapons.

However, with the current issue, a light with both flamers and spl's could be a very serious threat, as they can keep that up forever.

I don't theorize. I base on my experience with flamers so far.
Cent D, lbx10, 2xsrm4, 2xspl now switched to 2xflamer, xl300, 104km/h. A very situational build that suddenly become extremely effective.

1) I can overheat anyone using 'heat-generating' wepons. Lasers? Check. LRM? Check. Srm? Check. PPC? Check. Ballistics? Check in case of about half of them. Basically every build without gauss/AC5/AC10/LBX10 is defenseless once hit with flamers. You don't even have to aim, you can spread the flame all around the mech.

2) You can have a cheetah with ~10 less alpha that can disable 3 enemies and kill one in time it would took it to kill 1 with spl only. (Because overheated ones don't spread damage or shield themselves).

I love that flamers actually work now. The problem is that in brawling fast mech with 1-2 flamers > any other mech without flamers. I already see some groups having at least 1 flamer on all their mechs, to defend against enemy flamers. Kinda cool, but I don't think that turning flamers into necessary equipment for any laser/lrm/srm/hot AC boat is a good solution. They should be a viable choice, nothing more, nothing less.

EDIT: to add perspective: I don't use macro or even tap the flamers. I got them on a otherwise cold build so I don't even need to exploit

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 18 February 2016 - 01:06 AM.

[Wintersdark]

You can't overheat ANYONE. They overheat themselves. They can avoid that by not alpha striking. That's it. This is just a l2p moment.

That ACH can just chainfire SPL's all day long, and if an ACH overheats when fighting a flamer/LBX cn9? He deserves what he gets. That's just bad. He's more than capable of simply getting some range.