271 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

You should have focused more on my "caught totally unaware" part rather than on the "longer-ranged weapons" part.

As Sun Tzu himself said, "victory is gained by surprise".

Lets drop in 10 private matches in a 1v1. 10 out of 10 times I will surprise you and get you to 90% heat before you can do any meaningful damage to me.

There is no skill or glory to be had in these flamers. Its just annoying.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

Lets drop in 10 private matches in a 1v1. 10 out of 10 times I will surprise you and get you to 90% heat before you can do any meaningful damage to me.

There is no skill or glory to be had in these flamers. Its just annoying.

What the difference between 4 flamers to the back in 4 seconds vs. two 48 CSPL alphas in the same location and for the same duration?

Also, you're ignoring the dynamics of a team vs. team game in using the results of 1 vs.1 encounters as proof. Nice try though.

[Averen]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Flamers ARE a hard counter to energy boats at under 90m. If you are at 90% heat you aren't shooting any lasers.

Exactly! A hard counter 'under 90m' to very specific, incredibly powerful weaponboating, is something very different to a hard counter to all energy boats.

And even then, at 90% heat, you often can fire 2 large laser (sub ~18% heat) without getting notable damage, which isn't that bad against a super close light. So it's not even that much of a hard counter.

Lastly, flamers by itself aren't even a hard counter, because they don't do any damage.


I mean, that are so many caveat emptor's... It's not like the sky is gonna fall down. I think we can wait a bit and look how the meta plays out.

Edited by Averen, 17 February 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[Mcgral18]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Flamers ARE a hard counter to energy boats at under 90m. If you are at 90% heat you aren't shooting any lasers.

~9 heat is what you get, with 20 cDHS.

3 cSPLs, a MPL, probably an AC20 if you have the DHS (only 6 heat, but heat cap dependant)
2ERMLs or MPLs puts you down.

IS MLs should get 2.

Then you've got the maps that increase your heatcap and dissipation by 25%, and those that cut it by that much.
So, down to 2 SPLs or up to 4.

From what I saw, when you reach the 90% heat cap, your dissipation is no longer affected. I was shooting the cERLL for 0% heat on the 35DHS Whale, and it stayed at 90% the entire duration (meaning the much higher single flamer heat generation wasn't going above the 90% mark).

So, just pitiful firepower, but not defenceless. 1 VS 1? You will be in trouble. With an ally around? There's a Light mech circling your leg within 90M...I guess that depends on the PUG lotto.



I don't hate the new Flamers...but I wouldn't be against 2 DPS if you want to remove the heat either.
They've only gained me one headshot so far...3 Flamer 6 cSPL Nova.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

What the difference between 4 flamers to the back in 4 seconds vs. two 48 CSPL alphas in the same location and for the same duration?

Also, you're ignoring the dynamics of a team vs. team game in using the results of 1 vs.1 encounters as proof. Nice try though.

Well, the cSPL alphas at least have to be aimed. The flamers just have to be sprayed in the general direction.

So, your telling me that in every instance, a flamer light will be stopped by your team? How many times will a flamer light get to you while you are engaging the OTHER team? How long will you last then when you can't shoot anything? Also, will it be easier to notice the light that is closing in on you while you are trading shots with the enemy team?

The team argument goes both ways. Nice try though.

[Raso]

Aside from a definite need for a balance pass I'd like to point out that this macro seems to make it mad easy to abuse this system. I'm astonished PGI lets macros fly on their game but not the least bit surprised that the meta obsessed try-hards need that extra bit of edge for fear of not being competitive enough.
Skills....... HA! Marcos aren't skill.

[pwnface]

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

What the difference between 4 flamers to the back in 4 seconds vs. two 48 CSPL alphas in the same location and for the same duration?

Also, you're ignoring the dynamics of a team vs. team game in using the results of 1 vs.1 encounters as proof. Nice try though.

What mech fields 48 CSPLs? This looks like a bad argument to me.

[Averen]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Well, the cSPL alphas at least have to be aimed. The flamers just have to be sprayed in the general direction.

So, your telling me that in every instance, a flamer light will be stopped by your team? How many times will a flamer light get to you while you are engaging the OTHER team? How long will you last then when you can't shoot anything? Also, will it be easier to notice the light that is closing in on you while you are trading shots with the enemy team?

The team argument goes both ways. Nice try though.

You are still arguing with a 2v1 tho. That light only can hit you, has to stay close and constantly face you. Aka dead meat in a 2v2. Bad team-argument.
Seems like a lot of people forget that flamerlight is a mech that can't do anything else during flaming, not even move very far.

Edited by Averen, 17 February 2016 - 10:03 AM.

[FupDup]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

What mech fields 48 CSPLs? This looks like a bad argument to me.

I think he meant the total damage (6 damage * 8 SPLs?) rather than the number of guns.

[Gas Guzzler]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

What mech fields 48 CSPLs? This looks like a bad argument to me.

I think he meant 48 damage, so 8 cSPLs. You need to aim those more precisely than flamers though, and I don't think a Clan light can take that many, its more like 30-36 damage.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 February 2016 - 10:04 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Exactly! A hard counter 'under 90m' to very specific, incredibly powerful weaponboating, is something very different to a hard counter to all energy boats.

And even then, at 90% heat, you often can fire 2 large laser (sub ~18% heat) without getting notable damage, which isn't that bad against a super close light. So it's not even that much of a hard counter.

Its 10% heat cap, which is 6-8ish heat. So you can fire single medium class lasers, veeery slowly. I would say thats effectively all energy weapons, since slowly firing medium class lasers is not very effective, to say the least. Or are you thinking shutting yourself down is a good plan? any semi competent player is going to be waiting for you to do that so he can just headshot you.. hes flaming you anyway, clearly hoping youll shut down.

[pwnface]

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Exactly! A hard counter 'under 90m' to very specific, incredibly powerful weaponboating, is something very different to a hard counter to all energy boats.

And even then, at 90% heat, you often can fire 2 large laser (sub ~18% heat) without getting notable damage, which isn't that bad against a super close light. So it's not even that much of a hard counter.

Lastly, flamers by itself aren't even a hard counter, because they don't do any damage.


I mean, that are so many caveat emptor's... It's not like the sky is gonna fall down. I think we can wait a bit and look how the meta plays out.

It's incredibly easy to close distance to 90m or less in a light mech.

Firing lasers while at 90% heat makes you shut down, which means you can't even aim your entire laser duration. Shutting down in the middle of a firefight is really really bad. 2 half-aimed large lasers isn't going to do **** to a light mech flamer r*ping you.

[Roadkill]

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

exploit.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Widowmaker1981]

if you are gonna shut down, it should be for a killshot id say - if a 6 flamer jenner is stupidly standing still flaming you could just alpha all the things into his face. youll shut down for a while, but if hes dead hes shut down for longer. Would have to be IS pulse lasers or ERPPCs tho, long duration lasers wont get enough burn off before shutdown. sorry clans.

[pwnface]

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

You are still arguing with a 2v1 tho. That light only can hit you, has to stay close and constantly face you. Aka dead meat in a 2v2. Bad team-argument.
Seems like a lot of people forget that flamerlight is a mech that can't do anything else during flaming, not even move very far.

Actually, as the OP has pointed out with his nice videos, a flamer light mech can both heat cap an enemy AND use energy weapons to deal damage. You can easily run a 2x Flamer + 5x CSPL ACH and wreck most people 1v1. A 2v2 scenario is no different. If I heat cap one of my opponents it becomes a 2v1.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Well, the cSPL alphas at least have to be aimed. The flamers just have to be sprayed in the general direction.

Is it really that hard for people to hit the back of someone caught unawares at 90m or less? <raised left eyebrow>

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

So, your telling me that in every instance, a flamer light will be stopped by your team? How many times will a flamer light get to you while you are engaging the OTHER team? How long will you last then when you can't shoot anything? Also, will it be easier to notice the light that is closing in on you while you are trading shots with the enemy team?

Every time? I doubt it. But given what I see and do personally, I'd say it's at worst close to 50/50 on spotting the flamer, and better than that if people are on voice. Also remember that the flamer needs to stick around for 4 seconds or so to be effective.

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

The team argument goes both ways. Nice try though.

Well, I was just emulating you.

[pwnface]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

if you are gonna shut down, it should be for a killshot id say - if a 6 flamer jenner is stupidly standing still flaming you could just alpha all the things into his face. youll shut down for a while, but if hes dead hes shut down for longer. Would have to be IS pulse lasers or ERPPCs tho, long duration lasers wont get enough burn off before shutdown. sorry clans.

You might not power back up if you alpha strike at 90% heat.

[Gas Guzzler]

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

You are still arguing with a 2v1 tho. That light only can hit you, has to stay close and constantly face you. Aka dead meat in a 2v2. Bad team-argument.
Seems like a lot of people forget that flamerlight is a mech that can't do anything else during flaming, not even move very far.

"And therefore it is great for gameplay." Is that your argument?

I'm not arguing a 2v1, I'm arguing 12 v 12 now. Most of the time, by the time you start getting flamered, you will shutdown if you don't notice right away and fire lasers. The other team now focuses you down in a few seconds because you aren't moving before your team can do ANYTHING about the light. Now the light either moves on to its next target or sense too much opposition and withdraws for the time being. There are a plethora of different circumstances, where just "having a team" is not going to hard counter a Flamer light, and that's really irrelevant.

Being able to hold a mech a 90% heat while barely incurring any heat of your own is a bad mechanic. Hell, Firestarters and Cheetahs can bring 3-4 Flamers, AND 3-4 lasers.

[WANTED]

Answer. Bring dakka and 2 flamers on Jagers or whatever build you can bring the dakka on with flamers. Fight fire with fire literally. Should be funny in a couple of days to see more flamers on mechs than ever in the last 4 years..lol

[pwnface]

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Is it really that hard for people to hit the back of someone caught unawares at 90m or less? <raised left eyebrow>

Is it really that hard for people to turn around after getting hit in the back? If you aren't in a slow assault mech it's incredibly easy to not eat 2 alphas in the back from a light mech.

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Every time? I doubt it. But given what I see and do personally, I'd say it's at worst close to 50/50 on spotting the flamer, and better than that if people are on voice. Also remember that the flamer needs to stick around for 4 seconds or so to be effective.

People kind of charge at each other stupidly in solo queue, I don't think your experience is representative of what MWO looks like for everyone else. Competent light mech pilots get the drop on other pilots all the time. Being able to shut out multiple mechs for ZERO heat cost is a big problem.