271 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

You might not power back up if you alpha strike at 90% heat.

Hmm? Enemies might kill you, sure but you wont kill yourself from heat. I just tested it, and alphaing a 5 LPL Banshee on vitric forge, from 90% heat does a total of 2% health damage and makes your CT internal slightly yellow. Youd have to be cherry red CT internals to die from non override overheating. Can provide video if proof is needed, i shadowplayed it.

[pwnface]

WANTED, on 17 February 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Answer. Bring dakka and 2 flamers on Jagers or whatever build you can bring the dakka on with flamers. Fight fire with fire literally. Should be funny in a couple of days to see more flamers on mechs than ever in the last 4 years..lol

Jagers are way too slow to use flamers effectively. You shouldn't be face-hugging mechs at 90m in a Jagermech.

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Hmm? Enemies might kill you, sure but you wont kill yourself from heat. I just tested it, and alphaing a 5 LPL Banshee on vitric forge, from 90% heat does a total of 2% health damage and makes your CT internal slightly yellow. Youd have to be cherry red CT internals to die from non override overheating. Can provide video if proof is needed, i shadowplayed it.

That is actually really surprising to me. I feel like overheating by such a large margin should probably do more heat damage to your mech.

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 17 February 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

I think he meant the total damage (6 damage * 8 SPLs?) rather than the number of guns.

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

I think he meant 48 damage, so 8 cSPLs. You need to aim those more precisely than flamers though, and I don't think a Clan light can take that many, its more like 30-36 damage.

Yes, that is what I meant.

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

What mech fields 48 CSPLs? This looks like a bad argument to me.

For starters, my Hunchback IIC-A is equipped just like that for a suicidal maniac build.

Edited by Mystere, 17 February 2016 - 10:22 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Is it really that hard for people to hit the back of someone caught unawares at 90m or less? <raised left eyebrow>




Every time? I doubt it. But given what I see and do personally, I'd say it's at worst close to 50/50 on spotting the flamer, and better than that if people are on voice. Also remember that the flamer needs to stick around for 4 seconds or so to be effective.




Well, I was just emulating you.

Not really, but it depends what you are shooting at and if you are running over uneven ground, some elevation changes no human can compensate for. Yes yes we all know you think of yourself as ultracomp top tier skill king, yet I have never seen you in a competitive environment, or seen you play at all.

Is it really 4 seconds? Its more like 3 seconds, and if they fire weapons that becomes a lot shorter. I think you are overestimating the team's ability to do anything about it even if it is spotted, and no matter what your team does, if the other team has LoS with you if/when you shutdown out in the open, that's an instagib.

[Sereglach]

Well, Russ just said this on Twitter:

Quote

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock · 9m9 minutes ago

At this point I am not feeling that obligated to make any Flamer changes - but here is your moment to give your thoughts again.

So, if anyone has twitter and would like to point out the needed changes that'd be awesome. Personally I still say 1 DPS, 1 Heat Dam, .5 Heat Gen at fixed values.

Regardless, the current mechanics are terrible and need to go.

[Mystere]

WANTED, on 17 February 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Answer. Bring dakka and 2 flamers on Jagers or whatever build you can bring the dakka on with flamers. Fight fire with fire literally. Should be funny in a couple of days to see more flamers on mechs than ever in the last 4 years..lol

I most certainly would be very happy for such an outcome.

[pwnface]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Is it really 4 seconds? Its more like 3 seconds, and if they fire weapons that becomes a lot shorter. I think you are overestimating the team's ability to do anything about it even if it is spotted, and no matter what your team does, if the other team has LoS with you if/when you shutdown out in the open, that's an instagib.

It's roughly 3 seconds if they are at 0 heat. If they shoot at all it's less than 2 seconds.

[Mystere]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Is it really that hard for people to turn around after getting hit in the back? If you aren't in a slow assault mech it's incredibly easy to not eat 2 alphas in the back from a light mech.

On average I see around a 2-second delay, more if someone is currently engaged. If I am able to correctly anticipate the direction of turn, he's dead. If not, one more shot in the back should seal the deal if needed.

[pwnface]

Sereglach, on 17 February 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Well, Russ just said this on Twitter:



So, if anyone has twitter and would like to point out the needed changes that'd be awesome. Personally I still say 1 DPS, 1 Heat Dam, .5 Heat Gen at fixed values.

Regardless, the current mechanics are terrible and need to go.

I think changing the heat generation to a flat 3 per second and 1 per second on the user is a better way to go. Get rid of the exponential heat garbage completely. Minimum flamer duration should be 0.5 seconds so even if you briefly click them on you still generate 0.5 heat on yourself.

[wanderer]

Quote

Hmm? Enemies might kill you, sure but you wont kill yourself from heat. I just tested it, and alphaing a 5 LPL Banshee on vitric forge, from 90% heat does a total of 2% health damage and makes your CT internal slightly yellow. Youd have to be cherry red CT internals to die from non override overheating. Can provide video if proof is needed, i shadowplayed it.

This is, of course if your random damage goes CT.

You can always melt your cockpit. And of course, you're soft-locked at 90% heat as long as your opponent keeps chaining flamer fire at you.

[pwnface]

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

On average I see around a 2-second delay, more if someone is currently engaged. If I am able to correctly anticipate the direction of turn, he's dead. If not, one more shot in the back should seal the deal if needed.

Again, no competitive player is going to let you 2 shot them in the back unless they are in a DWF or STK. There are tons of terrible players who won't even turn around after multiple back shots, doesn't really count.

[Sereglach]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

I think changing the heat generation to a flat 3 per second and 1 per second on the user is a better way to go. Get rid of the exponential heat garbage completely. Minimum flamer duration should be 0.5 seconds so even if you briefly click them on you still generate 0.5 heat on yourself.

It might be the better way to go, regardless, the mechanics that allow the exploit need to go.

EDIT: Regardless, tuning can and should be done in the long run, even after this mess is settled.

Edited by Sereglach, 17 February 2016 - 10:38 AM.

[pwnface]

I really have no problem with flamers being able to generate ridiculous amounts of heat on their targets. I just think that the mech using the flamer needs to get up to at least 30-50% of their own heat capacity to do it. Being able to soft-cap another players effectiveness should come at a cost.

Exponential heat absolutely needs to be removed.

Edited by pwnface, 17 February 2016 - 10:39 AM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

QQ harder and l2p, adept improvise and overcome. dont like the new flamers? to bad get gud.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Not really, but it depends what you are shooting at and if you are running over uneven ground, some elevation changes no human can compensate for. Yes yes we all know you think of yourself as ultracomp top tier skill king, yet I have never seen you in a competitive environment, or seen you play at all.

Ultracomp? Nope. I'm just a suicidal maniac that likes speed and somehow manages to mostly survive, even if not riding a light.

Also, you do not see me because I am level 6.

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Is it really 4 seconds? Its more like 3 seconds, and if they fire weapons that becomes a lot shorter. I think you are overestimating the team's ability to do anything about it even if it is spotted, and no matter what your team does, if the other team has LoS with you if/when you shutdown out in the open, that's an instagib.

Well, I counted over 4 seconds on the OP's first video.

Edited by Mystere, 17 February 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[Mystere]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

Again, no competitive player is going to let you 2 shot them in the back unless they are in a DWF or STK. There are tons of terrible players who won't even turn around after multiple back shots, doesn't really count.

Well then, this just goes to show that having a T1 below their name does not really mean much.

[Averen]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

"And therefore it is great for gameplay." Is that your argument?

Did I write that? No? Then it's not what I was saying.

Roadkill, on 17 February 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I do not think you know what I'm talking about. Even though you're posting in a thread about it. Which is kinda bewildering.

[Mcgral18]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

I really have no problem with flamers being able to generate ridiculous amounts of heat on their targets. I just think that the mech using the flamer needs to get up to at least 30-50% of their own heat capacity to do it. Being able to soft-cap another players effectiveness should come at a cost.

Exponential heat absolutely needs to be removed.

When you chainfire, you still increase the multiplier, but it just takes longer to reach that 4.75s, in fact, twice as long because it's in half second bursts.

The Macro takes that to another level, where it might take well over 30 seconds to jump to the next exp level.


Making a flamer last a half second (current chainfire speed) fixes the Macro being so much more effective.
Removing exponential heat gain would be lovely, but that just helps the Flamer shooter.

[WANTED]

pwnface, on 17 February 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Jagers are way too slow to use flamers effectively. You shouldn't be face-hugging mechs at 90m in a Jagermech.

I do when the lights with flamers get on me. I have plenty of Ammo and 3XUAC5s. I'm not closing in on them with my 2xflamers. It's just allows me to dish it back or if the light is capping I can seize them up. Did that to two in a row on Assault just earlier. Just me and them.

[pwnface]

I tweeted at Russ and he's watching the videos on the OP now. I hope he realizes this is a massive problem!