114 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

You are of course COMPLETELY ignoring the following benefits of Clan lasers:

1. Most of them are lighter than the IS equivalent.
2. Most of them are SMALLER than the IS equivalent.
3. As far as I can remember in my much hungover state, ALL Clan weapons do MORE DAMAGE than the IS equivalent.

So allowing a FEW IS 'mechs to have longer range, PLUS, a shorter burn time, doesn't seem to be all that much of an issue, ESPECIALLY considering that items 1+2+3, allow Clan builds to have LARGER more POWERFUL alpha's than most IS 'mechs of equivalent weight class.

Actually, the issue lies in beam duration mostly. If IS has more range and higher damage per 1/10th second, then it is problematic. The IS LPL is a heinous offender in this sense with 3 IS LPL being just shy of 5 damage per 1/10th second. Meanwhile, even if clans could fire 3 LPL without ghost heat, it would still only come out to be about 3.5 damage per 1/10th second.

So, having a range advantage, and an advantage in damage applied per X face time made IS lasers completely OP.

Your IS ERLL can have 1000m range for all I care, as long as the CERLL can fire 3 at a time and do more damage per tick, I will always win. Why? Because I am doing more damage per exposure time over 95% of engagement ranges.

In CW, IS ERLL out damaged CERLL completely past ~1180m, and did it with a .25 or more second beam duration advantage. You simply cannot win trades as clans at that point.

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Ballistics are different, though, if you've ever been at the receiving end of a bullet hose, you know that the spread ballistics of Clan AC's isn't completely without benefit.

Clan ACs are slightly worse than IS ACs for the same reason, exposure time. I cannot tell you how many clan players want single slug regular ACs...not even UACs, just plain old AC single projectile weapons. You would see far more clan ACs than you do now if that was the case.

Why?

Because right now, the only effective clan ACs are boated UACs in 5s and 10s. You have to bring an assault mech to bring enough to matter, and the damage still spreads like crazy when your opponent is torso twisting.

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

No they don't, especially after the nerf to max range (405 vs 450). That said the cERML is still a good weapon, but not near the power level it used to be and I would still love to see the iLL normal range buffed (to at least 500m, at least).

I'm talking prior to this week, if you feel 45 meters of range to separate a large laser from medium laser is "enough", well so be it, that's your personal opinion, mine is going to differ on this though

Let's also discuss the other stats as well though since we're talking IS vs Clan balance in regards to energy weapons

ER MEDIUM laser = 7 damage 6 heat and a 3 second cooldown
IS LARGE laser = 9 damage 7 heat and a 3.25 second cooldown

So for 6 TONS and 1 crit slots
Clans have a weapon that does 2 less damage for 1 less heat at 400 meters (give or take)
IS has to invest 7 tons and 2 slots to get anything comparable.

Yes, lets discuss IS vs. Clan energy "balance"

The reason I brought up CB in my first post?
This discussion goes all the wya back to CB. Long before clans were even implemented. The original discussion revolved around ranges of ballistics and energy.

PGI gave ballistics this ridiculous "ghost range" buff of 3x "normal" range. So right from the get go IS energy weapons were outclassed in terms of range and damage comparisons.
Clan energy weapons were a good format for energy weapons in general, the problem was, they got implemented in a more "useful" manner, IS lasers were left in the dust in this regard.

When one singular mech gets quirked for one singular weapon to outrange some clan mechs and tech is suddenly became "outrage".

So yea, let's discuss "QQ" in regards to energy weapons, I'd love to hear some Clan players explain to me how that one singular mech built around one singular weapon, and one singular quirk created this "massive imbalance".

[Khobai]

To be fair you need to compare CERML to the ISERLL though.

The ISLL is vastly inferior to the ISERLL and youd be stupid not to trade 1 extra heat for 50% more range.

ISLL admittedly needs a buff so it performs better compared to the CERML.

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In CW, IS ERLL out damaged CERLL completely past ~1180m, and did it with a .25 or more second beam duration advantage. You simply cannot win trades as clans at that point.

This. It was the combination of BOTH longer range AND shorter beam duration. It made trading impossible for clans.

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can be boated to much higher extremes and much more efficiently than the IS LL can

Um it can be boated to 6 ERML... and 6 ISLL stalkers were a thing last I checked. So no it cant be boated to higher extremes. Theyre both boated the same amount.

Edited by Khobai, 17 February 2016 - 11:27 AM.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Again, looking at it systemically:

IS LL = 9 damage, 7 heat - DPH = 1.29 - HPS = 1.65
CERML = 7 damage, 6 heat - DPH = 1.17 - HPS = 1.45

One-for-one the IS LL does provide .12 damage more per heat generated, THOUGH, the heat generation of the Clan ERML is far more efficient, .20.

HOWEVER:

IS LL = 5 tons, 2 crits - DPT = .42
CERML = 1 tons, 1 crits - DPT = 1.69

One-for-one the Clan ERML far exceeds the IS damage potential.

Systemically, the CERML is a more efficient weapon, can be boated to much higher extremes and much more efficiently than the IS LL can. Heck the differences in ghost heat threshholds for ML's and LL's (the same for Clan and IS right? Can't remember, correct me if I'm wrong), make sure that a Clanner can almost always build a bigger more heat efficient alpha with ML's than an IS pilot can with LLs.

Again, just based off the objective interpretation of the raw base numbers.

Sure, you can boat CERMLs easier, except they are as hot as the IS LL, do less damage, require more DHS per weapon (since clan DHS are now outright worse than IS DHS), have longer beam duration, and they give up considerable range to the IS LL. You also pair them with significantly hotter other weapons on clan side as well...

Aside from that, yes, the CERML is an objectively better weapon...if you are only looking at tonnage.

If you look at damage per heat, beam duration, range, outright damage, and other factors, they are objectively worse...

Edited by Gyrok, 17 February 2016 - 11:24 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Actually, the issue lies in beam duration mostly. If IS has more range and higher damage per 1/10th second, then it is problematic. The IS LPL is a heinous offender in this sense with 3 IS LPL being just shy of 5 damage per 1/10th second. Meanwhile, even if clans could fire 3 LPL without ghost heat, it would still only come out to be about 3.5 damage per 1/10th second.

So, having a range advantage, and an advantage in damage applied per X face time made IS lasers completely OP.

But you're ignoring the fact that, TYPICALLY, a Clan equivalent build is fielding a MUCH higher alpha than the IS is.

PLUS, even for the short time the Clan lets the IS 'mech stay outside the Clanner's weapons range, that damage is minimal, not hitting for FULL damage, AND, once the Clanner has approached his target to within his own range, he has that larger alpha doing more damage.

Unless a Clan pilot just INSISTS on never approaching the IS pilot, those IS advantages can be negated and overwhelmed rather quickly (well, except for a DWF, but again, HUGE MOFO ALPHA ON BOARD).

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Your IS ERLL can have 1000m range for all I care, as long as the CERLL can fire 3 at a time and do more damage per tick, I will always win. Why? Because I am doing more damage per exposure time over 95% of engagement ranges.

In CW, IS ERLL out damaged CERLL completely past ~1180m, and did it with a .25 or more second beam duration advantage. You simply cannot win trades as clans at that point.

And we're back to my interpreting these words as the Clans refusing to get close to the IS 'mechs. It seems like you're trying to present the extremis as the 'natural state' of play, when we all know that battles typically will quickly close in to the sub 500 meter range, where the larger Clan alphas can truly devastate.

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Clan ACs are slightly worse than IS ACs for the same reason, exposure time. I cannot tell you how many clan players want single slug regular ACs...not even UACs, just plain old AC single projectile weapons. You would see far more clan ACs than you do now if that was the case.

Except for the fact that Clans can boat their AC's into bullet hoses which goes along way in rendering their target's abilities to aim/focus to an extreme difficulty.

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Why?

Because right now, the only effective clan ACs are boated UACs in 5s and 10s. You have to bring an assault mech to bring enough to matter, and the damage still spreads like crazy when your opponent is torso twisting.

Can't clans torso twist? Don't IS have to also face their target for aiming, etc. The IS pilot HAS to torso twist because some Clan builds when boating UACs can pump out 100+ alphas, repeatedly. I'm unfamiliar with IS builds capable of doing the same ballistics.

It's a damn good thing that Clan ballistics are 'pulse' based, again, mainly due to the fact that the Clans have some fairly devastating boating capability, and putting those 60+, 80+, 100+ alphas in a PPFLD would be SERIOUSLY game breaking, or do you not agree with that?

[Chuck Jager]

CK16, on 17 February 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Cause that is part of what makes clan lasers unique and better then the IS, as this is how they were designed to be in all battletech in history of the franchise? They are not suppose to be the same. Tell me how it is balanced with some of the old quirked mechs that could Now out range clan ER Large Lasers, but now have quite shorter burn times and heat rating? If IS wants our range then they should get negative quirks to make it ok I can reach out, however beam time is now longer then basic IS and I have worse heat rating.

It is like the Clan UAC's, they are clan designs meant to be more advanced then IS tech. I get it there needs to be balance ( thus the Clan ER's longer burn times, and UAC burst damage vs single shot damage.). Is lasers shouldn't be junk, and they are not for stayed reasons of short burn time and better heat ratings. While clans have range and damage but trading for more heat generation, and usually not as pinpoint damage due to longer time to keep fire concentrated us more likely to spread damage.

Atleast till after Revival IS tech lacked in many ways to Clan, quiaff?

WHy because that long range is a place where bad players sit in bad builds (yes some exceptions, but they play a lower ranges).

cLplas + cerMlas are the best combo weapons with plenty of room and tonnage left over for heat sinks and a tc1. these are dominant in the 300-700 range and the lplas is still doing damage past 1000m. IS has a hard time stacking weapons in this range. The non-quirked clan weapons are the best at the ranges where the battle is decided. Even 4 cerMlas on a lrm boat have decent direct fire at a decent range compared to IS lrm boats.

I love playing clan, but if you step away from the lore it may be easier to see the in game balance problems. The long range poke is something I am glad to see go.

FYI - CW is to easy to game without IS or Clan balance issues.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 17 February 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

I'm talking prior to this week, if you feel 45 meters of range to separate a large laser from medium laser is "enough", well so be it, that's your personal opinion, mine is going to differ on this though

That's why I think the IS LL should be buffed and other parities should be brought in line, but they are not equivalent range, and people underestimate the impact the nerf to max range on Clan lasers had (specifically the cERML).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

But you're ignoring the fact that, TYPICALLY, a Clan equivalent build is fielding a MUCH higher alpha than the IS is.

Were being a bit hyperbolic aren't we?
Black Knight (3 LPL-5 ML) = 58 alpha
Timber Wolf (2 LPL-6 ERML) = 68 alpha

10 points isn't that much bigger, mind you they have similar effective ranges for their alpha (Timby can poke with 2 LPL though).

[pwnface]

mogs01gt, on 17 February 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Not sure why this is even an issue. The range quirks only affected CW.

...what?

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

But you're ignoring the fact that, TYPICALLY, a Clan equivalent build is fielding a MUCH higher alpha than the IS is.

PLUS, even for the short time the Clan lets the IS 'mech stay outside the Clanner's weapons range, that damage is minimal, not hitting for FULL damage, AND, once the Clanner has approached his target to within his own range, he has that larger alpha doing more damage.

Unless a Clan pilot just INSISTS on never approaching the IS pilot, those IS advantages can be negated and overwhelmed rather quickly (well, except for a DWF, but again, HUGE MOFO ALPHA ON BOARD).

And we're back to my interpreting these words as the Clans refusing to get close to the IS 'mechs. It seems like you're trying to present the extremis as the 'natural state' of play, when we all know that battles typically will quickly close in to the sub 500 meter range, where the larger Clan alphas can truly devastate.

Both of these mechs can effectively alpha one time before having to bail to cool off...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...955f03898deb923

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f2170d567daeefa

The EBJ is the ONLY clan mech that can hang with the BK on an energy load out like that...and the beam duration on the EBJ is minimum of 0.22 seconds longer. That is an eternity in beam duration.

You do the math who wins that trade?

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Except for the fact that Clans can boat their AC's into bullet hoses which goes along way in rendering their target's abilities to aim/focus to an extreme difficulty.

What mech can do that? DW? What else...? Nothing? Hmm...the IS does not have any mechs that can boat 4+ ACs?

I know for sure the MAL can, and the KGC, the BW, the JM6, the RFL, the CTF and a few others...like the MAD, VTR, BLR, BNC and others can boat 3.

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Can't clans torso twist? Don't IS have to also face their target for aiming, etc. The IS pilot HAS to torso twist because some Clan builds when boating UACs can pump out 100+ alphas, repeatedly. I'm unfamiliar with IS builds capable of doing the same ballistics.

Hyperbole.

MAL can boat 4 UAC5s, 6 AC5s, 2 AC20s, 4 UAC5s and 2 AC2s, 6 ACs, and that is but one example that can put out serious DPS as a ballistic boat.

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It's a damn good thing that Clan ballistics are 'pulse' based, again, mainly due to the fact that the Clans have some fairly devastating boating capability, and putting those 60+, 80+, 100+ alphas in a PPFLD would be SERIOUSLY game breaking, or do you not agree with that?

What Clan mech can boat 100 alpha in ballistics? that would require 5 AC20s.

Not sure I can think of one that can...

In fact, I cannot even think of one that could arguably boat 5 AC10s.

4 is doable...5 AC5s...but that is nowhere near 100 damage.

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

That's why I think the IS LL should be buffed and other parities should be brought in line, but they are not equivalent range, and people underestimate the impact the nerf to max range on Clan lasers had (specifically the cERML).

The entire list of weapons needs to be readjusted.

Maps, quirks, weapon systems, mechs, etc. have changed the way the game is played. The entire range system was designed when we had small maps and were doing 8v8.
Then PGI failed to actually go through and readjust everything when clan tech was implemented.

Thus began the age of "band-aids". Part of this was due to the whole UI2.0 debacle. A year to design a UI was.... well let's just say some of us started wondering "WTF" at that point, but that's neither here nor there at this point.

Here's what needs to happen if PGI really wants to look at rebalancing the game. Start with the longest ranged weapon you want, in this case I'd think AC2
AC2 = range 1800 meters
then move to the next longest range weapon, let's just take LRMs for simplicity's sake.
LRM = 1600 meters
then so on and so forth.

Once the ranges for each weapon are identified for both Clan and IS respectively, THEN you can use quirks to add flavor and a unique feel to all chassis, instead of using them as a "buff tool" to make IS mechs more competitive with Clans, which is what they're really used for, otherwise quirks for clan mechs would have been more thoroughly implemented a long time ago (like I dunno, maybe when quirks were implemented?)

Everything PGI has done to this point in regards to Clan vs IS "balance" is nothing more than constantly reacting to whatever complaint the community has in regards to a specific weapon, chassis, etc.

That's not balancing, that's reacting and nerfing or buffing as needed to keep players "happy".

If that's how you plan to balance a game with millions of player, mech, and weapon combinations...


well, that's the difference between "band-aids" and actually sitting down and thinking long-term as opposed to "How do we "balance" things enough so that the next mech being sold will be popular enough to still make money and keep everyone else from being pissed"

Again, that's not balance, that's marketing.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

...

Aside from that, yes, the CERML is an objectively better weapon...if you are only looking at tonnage.

I don't look at ONLY tonnage, I look also look at crit space which determines not only how much of OTHER things can be loaded but how vulnerable said weapon is to crit hits. I also look at how many can be fired simultaneously before 'ghost heat' kicks in, and potential placement in the 'mech chassis verses things like XL engines, FF/ENDO, etc.

I also, systemically, look at all the differences in those systems:

FF - Clans get 8% more protection/ton than IS, and requires half the crit slots
ENDO - Clans requires half the crit slots.

Systemically, the benefits all add up to undo balance.

Myopically focusing on one weapon system doesn't do any good.

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If you look at damage per heat, beam duration, range, outright damage, and other factors, they are objectively worse...

The numbers I quoted were from Smurfys and seemed to indicate that, over all, Clans are better off.

Again CERML vs. ISLL, according to Smurfy, the CERML generates LESS heat per second, has a MUCH higher DPS/T, slightly lower damage/heat, moderately lower DPS (.43).

The difference in beam duration you're talking about.... .15.

Considering an IS pilot boating LLs will be generating more heat, and will have an alpha that is penalized by ghost heat with far less weapons than the Clan ERML will, I think that puts the Clan ERML in the top spot, other than for the ISLL's range.

>>IF<< the Clan pilot refuses to close into CERML range, yep, the IS pilot has the advantage, otherwise, once the distance is closed the typically higher alpha the Clan pilot brings will easily negate the IS duration/range advantage.

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Were being a bit hyperbolic aren't we?
Black Knight (3 LPL-5 ML) = 58 alpha
Timber Wolf (2 LPL-6 ERML) = 68 alpha

10 points isn't that much bigger, mind you they have similar effective ranges for their alpha (Timby can poke with 2 LPL though).

Are we talking balance or "meta"?

Any time someone uses (especially when they do so exclusively) DPS to determine "balance", they're doing it wrong.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Were being a bit hyperbolic aren't we?
Black Knight (3 LPL-5 ML) = 58 alpha
Timber Wolf (2 LPL-6 ERML) = 68 alpha

10 points isn't that much bigger, mind you they have similar effective ranges for their alpha (Timby can poke with 2 LPL though).

10 points isn't a lot except that the Timby gets to kill the BK much faster those 10 extra points of damage per shot, and as far as '...similar effective...' it still allows the Timby one shot in at full damage before the IS can, PLUS, considering that the BK is sporting only 48 armor, that 68 points of damage has ate into internals a HECK of a lot more than the BK's 58 point alpha into the Timby's 50 point ST.

Again, systemically and objectively the Clan's Timby is the more powerful mech with its typically higher speed and absolutely higher survivability XL, than the BK.

We have to objectively look at the entire system to judge the balance, not just focus on ONE set of numbers. That myopic view point is what got us to where we are now...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 17 February 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

Are we talking balance or "meta"?

Any time someone uses (especially when they do so exclusively) DPS to determine "balance", they're doing it wrong.

I'm not using DPS, that is just raw damage, and I'm just countering Dimento's hyperbolic statement about Clans having MUCH higher alphas.

[H I A S]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

BK is sporting only 48 armor.

64.
Btw: Noone is shooting ST on that walking CT.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

considering that the BK is sporting only 48 armor,

Ummmm, wat? Maybe if you sport too much back armor, yes. That said, if a Clan alpha hits the BK in only the side torso, yes it will hit internals, but CT is still easier to hit on the BK, which is why it doesn't matter as much, because the BK can actually roll damage a bit better than the Timby as far as I'm concerned. Keep in mind, the duration difference between the two is also pretty decent (7-KNT-L gets 15% duration, for a max of .765s duration on MLs). Meaning that the BK actually does more damage per tick than the Timby, which is an important aspect you love to hand wave away.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 12:20 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

arivio, on 17 February 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

64.
Btw: Noone is shooting ST on that walking CT.

Is it 64? Sorry was using Smurfys and it shows 48 for armor front armor on stock builds. Since I don't typically have to shoot the front AND BACK of any 'mech to start hitting internals, I ignored the 16 points of back armor.

I did the same for the Timby too, btw...

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

Ummmm, wat? Maybe if you sport too much back armor, yes. That said, if a Clan alpha hits the BK in only the side torso, yes it will hit internals, but CT is still easier to hit on the BK, which is why it doesn't matter as much, because the BK can actually roll damage a bit better than the Timby as far as I'm concerned. Keep in mind, the duration difference between the two is also pretty decent (7-KNT-L gets 15% duration, for a max of .765s duration on MLs). Meaning that the BK actually does more damage per tick than the Timby, which is an important aspect you love to hand wave away.

At most "I" would reduce the back armor to 12, thus the BK's front armor would be 52.

I did the exact same comparison to stock Timbies in my reference from Smurfys, so again, reducing the Timby's back armor to no lower than 12, it ends up with 52 in the front AND STILL has the advantage in alpha power.

10 points doesn't count for much UNLESS you're watching how quickly you can get into internals, and how much damage is done once you're in. With one shot the Timby is in a BK's internals. It takes two for the BK to get into the Tibmy's. >>IF<< the BK loaded an XL, it's game over once he's lost the torso, for the Timby, he's just what? Down to half his weapons and now running at the dead BK's speed (or maybe a little faster)?

Objectively and systemically, the Timby is a better 'mech than the BK.

[H I A S]

You should put it from the back to the front, so you get 62-64 starmor and 104-106 ctarmor in an 75t mech.