114 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

We have to objectively look at the entire system to judge the balance, not just focus on ONE set of numbers. That myopic view point is what got us to where we are now...

ding ding ding

When you "balance" an entire weapon system based on how it performed in one singular chassis...


well, sorry that's simply not balance. That's not how anyone wanting good balance in ANYthing balances.

It would be like this

@=$
$=@
But, when @ is placed inside ()
(@)>$
so let's adjust @ based on that
now (@)=$
but now
@<$

In other words, @ is equal to $ in terms of balance. Once @ is placed inside of () though, it becomes greater than $, but only in that instance.
So now if you balance it in a vacuum and only based on how @ is balanced in regards to that one example, you wind up with a weapon that's sub-par in everything BUT that one particular instance.

Which is why you don't balance weapon systems based on things like this.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'm not using DPS, that is just raw damage, and I'm just countering Dimento's hyperbolic statement about Clans having MUCH higher alphas.

It's not hyperbole, you just choose to represent it as such because it doesn't help your argument that Clans are bringing higher point alphas to the battle, BECAUSE they have pretty much LIGHTER and SMALLER everything when compared to the IS.

When dang near everything is lighter and smaller, it makes a LOT more weight and crit slots available for boating weapons.

[nehebkau]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

I'm curious, why do you feel that it should NEVER happen that an IS should NEVER outrange a Clan ERLL?

Why?

well, to put it in non, stupid its TT "its cannon" nonsense, the clan ERLL has a greater beam duration (1/4 of a second more), more heat (2 points more). Those drawbacks are not made even by the clan laser weighing 1 less ton nor the 2 more damage clan erlls do because of both how clan mechs handle heat differently than IS mecs (recent patch) as well as the greater ability to spread out inbound clan cerll damage through twisting and moving by IS players due to the longer beam duration. So, given that the extra 65 meters that CERLLs get is supposed to compensate for the to main disadvantages CERLLs have (duration and heat) having IS ERLLs out range clan ERLLs puts the two weapon systems out of balance.

hows that?

Edited by nehebkau, 17 February 2016 - 12:32 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

arivio, on 17 February 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

You should put it from the back to the front, so you get 62-64 starmor and 104-106 ctarmor in an 75t mech.

With so many lights running around with boated SPL/ERSPL, SL/ERSL, and SRMS, I'd rather have SOME armor to survive that alpha to the rear without losing components/weapons...

At least until PGI figures out how to give us a frickin' rearview mirror or something...

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'm not using DPS, that is just raw damage, and I'm just countering Dimento's hyperbolic statement about Clans having MUCH higher alphas.

"much" is subjective, but just about every player I've ever talked to in this regard, top tier included, will say and agree with what I'm about to say.

Clans have a higher alpha than IS counterparts.
Clans are faster
Clans run hotter

IS does less on an alpha than clan counterparts
IS are slower
IS run cooler

That's the balancing factor between clan and IS.

Clans will almost always out DPS IS mechs and tech based on our current systems. That's the norm. That's the consensus among many in the community.

He made no "hyperbolic" statement, he just stated what many in the community agree with.

The one thing I do find very amusing though? Since we're talking hyperbole...

There is (as far as I know) ONE mech (the Top Dog) that, given a very specific loadout, could outrange some clan mechs.

So, an entire weapon system should be nerfed because ONE singular mech and build outranges clans?

Do we REALLY want to talk about hyperbole in regards to this subject....?

[H I A S]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

With so many lights running around with boated SPL/ERSPL, SL/ERSL, and SRMS, I'd rather have SOME armor to survive that alpha to the rear without losing components/weapons...

At least until PGI figures out how to give us a frickin' rearview mirror or something...

Mapawareness

@Sandpit: Prenerf we had many IS-Mechs with 25%+ energyrange. Thats 911m+ with modules.
4G, 6K, TD, X5.... and many have better Hardpoints/Covkpitlocations too.

Edited by arivio, 17 February 2016 - 01:02 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 17 February 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

Clans have a higher alpha than IS counterparts.
Clans are faster
Clans run hotter

IS does less on an alpha than clan counterparts
IS are slower
IS run cooler

The problem with this comparison, is having a higher overall alpha is kind of a pointless comparison. The best example are the QKD-4Gs that ran rampant prior to this patch, which had a mere 33 point alpha (half the Timby/Ebjag max laser build) but was able to beat mechs like the Ebjag consistently, because a quarter of the alpha (if not more) was getting wasted because targets would be back in cover (or you spread it to the arms) before you could complete your laser duration. So speaking of objectivity, we should keep this in mind and not oversimplify or hand-wave things away when they do in fact matter.

So yes, it is hyperbolic, maybe not Dire Star alpha hyperbolic, but hyperbolic none-the-less.

Also, not sure why you brought up the Top Dog, because despite the nice range it got, it was not really used because it suffered from other problems (mainly lack of duration/heat gen quirks). The range alone really wasn't what was broken, it was more often than not the combination of range and duration quirks. Did PGI overreact? Yes. Did it help the situation? For the most part, plenty of good IS mechs are still good so we will see how things shake out soon.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 12:40 PM.

[Sandpit]

arivio, on 17 February 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

Mapawareness

map awareness doesn't stop a mech moving at 140+ kph from popping up in your rear arc and coring you out, unless by map awareness you mean, put your back to a wall for the entire game...

[Dimento Graven]

nehebkau, on 17 February 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

well, to put it in non, stupid its TT &quot;its cannon&quot; nonsense, the clan ERLL has a greater beam duration (1/4 of a second more), more heat (2 points more). Those drawbacks are not made even by the clan laser weighing 1 less ton nor the 2 more damage clan erlls do because of both how clan mechs handle heat differently than IS mecs (recent patch) as well as the greater ability to spread out inbound clan cerll damage through twisting and moving by IS players due to the longer beam duration. So, given that the extra 65 meters that CERLLs get is supposed to compensate for the to main disadvantages it has having IS ERLLs outrange clan ERLLs puts the two weapon systems out of balance.

hows that?

Ahh, so we're back to the "Clans should have their cakes and eat them too" argument.

You're effectively arguing that Clans should have ALL the advantages and NO disadvantages.

Yes, Clans get a LONGER beam duration and a bit more heat, BUT:

More damage
More range (except for a VERY few exceptions, soon to be corrected, which have almost all been eliminated)
Less weight
Smaller size

Allowing you to stack more weapons and/or HS's than the IS equivalent could, granting you a higher alpha and/or heat mitigation.

Also, Clanners should really stop crying "twisting mitigation" when it comes to the longer beam durations, since Clanners get to twist too, AND AGAIN, once they've closed the distance the duration/range advantage that the IS had on that >>ONE<< weapon system is rendered pointless.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 17 February 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

I bought the Top Dog only for CW. Darn it. Guess I'll shelve it until PGI hits it with their buff darts. Jagermechs/5SS will have to do meanwhile.

Ancient Liao Proverb says "buy mechs based on quirks, much salt is in your future".

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

The problem with this comparison, is having a higher overall alpha is kind of a pointless comparison. The best example are the QKD-4Gs that ran rampant prior to this patch, which had a mere 33 point alpha (half the Timby/Ebjag max laser build) but was able to beat mechs like the Ebjag consistently, because a quarter of the alpha (if not more) was getting wasted because targets would be back in cover (or you spread it to the arms) before you could complete your laser duration. So speaking of objectivity, we should keep this in mind and not oversimplify or hand-wave things away when they do in fact matter.

you're trying to completely dismiss things like player skill, team skill, teamwork, comms, etc. by saying the reason Quicks took out Ebons was because of some weapon balance?

[Dimento Graven]

arivio, on 17 February 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

Mapawareness

I'm sorry... Is that a module that let's me see that light 'mech boating laser/SRMs just outside the range of seismic?

I am offended by the arrogant ignorance of your flippant use of that buzzword.

Unless you're hacking it's not possible to know where EVERY enemy is 100% of the time, and to make yourself completely vulnerable to the STANDARD practice of lights running around to the rear of the enemy and blasting is silly.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 17 February 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

by saying the reason Quicks took out Ebons was because of some weapon balance?

Yes, it wouldn't be a landslide, but I would be willing to bet prior to the patch, the Quickdraw could win more often than not in a 1 on 1 situation.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 12:44 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

... was getting wasted because targets would be back in cover (or you spread it to the arms) before you could complete your laser duration. So speaking of objectivity, we should keep this in mind and not oversimplify or hand-wave things away when they do in fact matter.

Yeah, yeah, let's pretend it's not possible to get in close to these 'mechs and we HAVE to fight a peek and poke battle with it.

Quote

So yes, it is hyperbolic, maybe not Dire Star alpha hyperbolic, but hyperbolic none-the-less.

...

Hardly, unless your Clan apologist zealot...

[CK16]

I said it my first post...with the prepatch quirks

IS META > Clan META

However in general
IS < Clan


Quirks broke some IS chassis and in competive play made IS heavy favorites over Clan builds. Among many previously stated reasons combined wit the quirks made some IS way to strong.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Yeah, yeah, let's pretend it's not possible to get in close to these 'mechs and we HAVE to fight a peek and poke battle with it.

What would closing the gap do for you? Other than let you overheat and get out DPS'd?

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Hardly, unless your Clan apologist zealot...

Whatever makes yourself feel better?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[H I A S]

Sandpit, on 17 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

map awareness doesn't stop a mech moving at 140+ kph from popping up in your rear arc and coring you out, unless by map awareness you mean, put your back to a wall for the entire game...

Look around when enemy have no angels to shoot you or you are moving / seismic sensor.
In firefight? Its a teamgame.

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

I'm sorry... Is that a module that let's me see that light 'mech boating laser/SRMs just outside the range of seismic?

I am offended by the arrogant ignorance of your flippant use of that buzzword.

Unless you're hacking it's not possible to know where EVERY enemy is 100% of the time, and to make yourself completely vulnerable to the STANDARD practice of lights running around to the rear of the enemy and blasting is silly.

Sry, to offend you was not my Intention. I normally play Lobby 8vs8 and only PUG for leveling and C-Bills but i never put more than 2 armor in my back.
When i get a Light in my back its my fault.

Edited by arivio, 17 February 2016 - 12:58 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

What would closing the gap do for you? Other than let you overheat and get out DPS'd?

The clanner with his larger alpha brought into range hits for more damage.

IF the Clan pilot isn't of the Potato rank, when he starts getting hot, he'll stop firing so many of his weapons at once and continue pouring equivalent damage into his target. The IS gets, what? One extra alpha before he has to start doing the same?

Hardly making the advantage all IS...

Quote

You realize this makes no sense, the statement is either hyperbolic or not, it has no bearing on whether I'm this "Clan apologist zealot" you keep witch-hunting for.

BS, Clan alphas are typically much higher than their IS equivalents, yes, SOMETIMES a Clanner doesn't go full meta and in some cases an IS will go full DERP loading an XL and as many lasers as he possibly can, then end up getting killed in two shots as the Clanner takes out an ST and crits said XL.

It's zealotry in that most reasonable people agree that typically systemically "Clans = Bigger Alpha + More Survivability + More Speed" and the zealot will focus on IS beam duration of ERLL's on the few 'mechs that had large range bonuses as breaking down Clans by the hordes rendering the entirety of the Clan as underpowered and in jeopardy of destroying the game.

Silly really.

arivio, on 17 February 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

Look around when enemy have no angels to shoot you or you are moving / seismic sensor.
In firefight? Its a teamgame.

Sure look around, and for the other 180+ degrees you don't have in view as you're looking around what do you do? What do you do for seismic's limited range, or inability to function while you move?

Look, it's moronically flippant to just say, "mapawareness" as an excuse to recommend someone eliminate all their back armor.

[H I A S]

See my edit.
No offense and dont take it personally pls

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

I don't look at ONLY tonnage, I look also look at crit space which determines not only how much of OTHER things can be loaded but how vulnerable said weapon is to crit hits. I also look at how many can be fired simultaneously before 'ghost heat' kicks in, and potential placement in the 'mech chassis verses things like XL engines, FF/ENDO, etc.

I also, systemically, look at all the differences in those systems:

FF - Clans get 8% more protection/ton than IS, and requires half the crit slots
ENDO - Clans requires half the crit slots.

Systemically, the benefits all add up to undo balance.

Myopically focusing on one weapon system doesn't do any good.

The numbers I quoted were from Smurfys and seemed to indicate that, over all, Clans are better off.

Again CERML vs. ISLL, according to Smurfy, the CERML generates LESS heat per second, has a MUCH higher DPS/T, slightly lower damage/heat, moderately lower DPS (.43).

The difference in beam duration you're talking about.... .15.

Considering an IS pilot boating LLs will be generating more heat, and will have an alpha that is penalized by ghost heat with far less weapons than the Clan ERML will, I think that puts the Clan ERML in the top spot, other than for the ISLL's range.

>>IF<< the Clan pilot refuses to close into CERML range, yep, the IS pilot has the advantage, otherwise, once the distance is closed the typically higher alpha the Clan pilot brings will easily negate the IS duration/range advantage.

5-6 LL is 45-54 damage for 35-42 heat @ 450M.

5-6 CERML is 35-42 damage for 30-36 heat @ 405M

With the IS LL, you are getting significantly more damage for similar heat at greater range.