87 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Richter Kerensky, on 20 February 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

Ideally, "counter-attack" wouldn't be a game mode at all and attackers would gain a node if they won a match and would lose a node if they lost a match, and vice-versa for the defenders, which means the important thing would be winning matches, not how many bodies you can pile onto a planet at once.

Quoted so I can lime it again because it's so true.

[Stormie]

ITX... same unit that started attacking our CGBI mechs because we were taking down omega before they had finished roflstomping all the pugs we were playing against. scoreline 23-5 or something like that at that point. no point protracting pugs suffering, unless you're a merc!

needless to say our group waited 10 minutes before requeing, specifically to avoid BEING ON THE SAME TEAM as them. pity the pugs don't have that option

[Der Hesse]

Stormie, on 21 February 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

ITX... same unit that started attacking our CGBI mechs because we were taking down omega before they had finished roflstomping all the pugs we were playing against. scoreline 23-5 or something like that at that point. no point protracting pugs suffering, unless you're a merc!

needless to say our group waited 10 minutes before requeing, specifically to avoid BEING ON THE SAME TEAM as them. pity the pugs don't have that option

Oh i had those matches too. I feel you man.
Premades teamkilling solos who drop with them because they dare to shoot omega while the premade waits with 10-11 mechs in the spawnzone for mech number 48 to drop. It doesn´t get any lower than this.

[Speedkermit]

Been playing counter-attack all morning. It's a horribad game mode and I hate it.

[Thelamon]

Gentlemen,

on behalf of the JAGF I want to clarify a few things, as this thread has generated an unfortunate and unnecessary amount of bitterness.

1.
None of the teams involved did camp in their drop-zones (as Il Mechwarrior stated correctly, ITX did set up in a different position.) the opening post is unprecise insofar.

2.
ITX won that round by bringing a coordinated Clan ER-Large team on the ideal map for that setup, as Boreal literally offers no cover to approach (in either direction) for a shorter ranged opponent + it is cold enough for a constant lasershow.

Since the recent and drastic IS range-nerf, it is therefore – again - extremely hard to counter Claner-Range on Boreal vs. a competent opponent like ITX.

The match was lost for the IS (Kurita) side in the moment ITX Clanners secured the first kill lead.

• The JAGF dropleader (9 + Pugs) decided against a hopeless charge where he would lose half his mechs before they could even engage.

• The ITX dropleader (10 + Pugs) then didn’t want to risk his certain tactical victory by trying to engage the JAGF mechs between the buildings around Omega and chose to wait it out.

This is called “playing to win” and is absolutely normal.
ITX tactically won that match.

o7 to ITX

See you next time.
Thelamon

PS
The OP “Der Hesse” was a random PUG player on the Kurita team in the highlighted drop of 10 ITX vs 9 JAGF + respective PUGs.
He is in no way related to the JAGF.

The problem doesn't lie with the "counter attack" game mode but rather with the botched map design of Boreal, an issue long known and rehashed on the forums. As long as no Map overhaul of Boreal finds favour with PGI, us IS players will just have to deal with it as best as possible.

[Khereg]

Not a fan of the tactic, but it does lead to some interesting matches sometimes. I'm reminded of a particular drop from a couple of months ago...


Taiga, with 5 or 6 from my unit mixed with pugs defending a counterattack against another group with 8 or 9 from a unit and filled out with pugs, similar to us. I honestly don't remember the unit, just that they had a few more unit members than us and we decided to play a little conservative as a result.

Attackers post up outside the gates and snipe Omega with quirked ERLL's. We presume this is a prelude to a rush to get up on kills and get back out just as described in the OP.

Instead, in spite of repeated pleas in VOIP and chat not to engage, two pugs on my team decide patience isn't their particular cup of virtue and start trading at the gate. They die.

We're now down on kills and have lost Omega. In a desperate call, we quickly push out and brawl them before they can (presumably) retreat to their spawn. I think we got it back to even on kills and managed to get back inside, forcing the attackers to make another push.

The attackers post up again with a fresh wave. One of the two pugs from earlier decides one stupid death wasn't enough and dies trading at the gate again.

So, we immediately push out again. This time we do even better in the brawl and get ahead on kills. Now the attackers are forced to come back in and the match proceeds pretty much as normal. We did not retrat to our drop zone.

While I don't like the tactic used here, in this case it actually made the game more interesting than it otherwise would have been. People from my unit commented at the fun involved in the tension of those early minutes when we realized that we were about to be put in a position to go face our lord and savior Dropship Jesus and the quick thinking and team action that saved us from His early judgement.

Screenshots were taken after the win, stories were shared on teamspeak, and drinks quaffed in honor of the deeds of the day.

But I gotta say, the way that went down is pretty rare. More often you'll get what we see in the OP, which sucks.

Edited to add: BTW, JAGF and ITx are both pretty solid units. We've played them both (JAGF over this last weekend, even in a solid match on Sulphurous) and both are competent opponents. I disagree that it's impossible to move in under cover on Boreal to negate a range advantage, but other than that, I wouldn't disparage either unit in the OP. I'm sure they each had their reasons for playing it out the way they did. It's a legit tactic under the current CW system.

I understand the OP is really saying the counterattack design itself needs to change, which I completely agree with. It's the incentives that the current system provides that leads to the tactics. No one should be blamed for using effective tactics that are within the rules.

Edited by Khereg, 22 February 2016 - 10:45 AM.

[Sandpit]

Dan Nashe, on 19 February 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

Is it really the game mode itself, or the fact that some maps let the enemy kill omega from a klick away?

It's the mode. Get 1 kill up and run to turtle up in your drop zone is how many play it to win because that's the best way to do it honestly.

The objective of the match is to win, that's the best tactic to use in many cases.

Changing the mode so that getting up on kill count isn't an automatic win would be a start.

[VorpalAnvil]

Alienized, on 21 February 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

first of all it should never be possible to kill a objective from far outside the mainbase. yes that is a fail of PGI but not everyone is abusing everything that is not well thought.
its a thing that can easily overlooked initially on map building (while PGI never fixes maps properly as it seems.... taiga the same with killing a generator from outside, still not fixed)

the other thing is that its always the same units creating powerhouses. this is solely in players hands and one of the biggest problems CW has.

now look at the units on clan ghostbear atm.
228
KCom
-MS- (misinformation there..still with smoke jags)
ITx

its not always PGI's fault.
its the abusive playerbase doing everything in their hands to screw up the game for personal benefit.
not only in this game, in almost every game.

the gaming community changed drastically to egoistical machines only caring about themselves instead of helping a game moving forward.

for MWO it always been like exploit and abuse to the max, blame PGI for everything and then cry about the changes.
yes PGI does have their share of not fixing stuff but so does alot of players stepping out of their habits towards PGI and this game overall.

if PGI really has to prevent the powerhouse creation in some way it will be the death of CW. no one wants to be cut down on the decisions you can make on the faction/CW map but it seems that so many players and units just ask for a massive drop on that.

BS. PGI created this situation because bads complained about being spawn camped at the old spawn points. If PGI actually played their own game at any level of competence or CW at all for that matter then they would have known as did many of us that creating new spawning areas of the type they have would lead directly to these type of tactics. This situation was predicted with 100% accuracy by experienced CW players such as myself, and the only logical party to blame is PGI for once again appealing to the lowest common denominator and engaging in hand holding and butt wiping instead of making meaningful, well thought out and balanced changes to the CW maps. And not only do the new spawn points not stop bads from being camped, they only drag out the misery for both sides, and encourage the use of these tactics by subpar units (HHoD I'm looking at you) who are made up of players whose greatest fear is scratching their paint job on that lurm 60 Catapult or whatever other badly built mech they are piloting that day.

[MischiefSC]

Hiding under your dropships is feeble.

You can push in to Boreal, it's just a bit painful. Also CERLLs are not nearly as bad to deal with up close as IS ERLLs are.

Big problem is how would the pugs handle it. Would they refuse to pass the gate? Freeze when they got shot in the open? Hang back? Even if they get to the trench or the tanks would they push?

You can face-roll ERLL Clan setup. Lightsabers don't take a torso twisting genius to deal with. Toy just have to actually, you know. Close with the enemy.

Counter-attack needs some tweaks. Hiding under the dropships is pretty crappy and shouldn't be a real option.

Make it kills plus a cap zone - ahead on kills and holding the cap at the mfb. That simplifies a lot.

[Alienized]

VorpalAnvil, on 22 February 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

BS. PGI created this situation because bads complained about being spawn camped at the old spawn points. If PGI actually played their own game at any level of competence or CW at all for that matter then they would have known as did many of us that creating new spawning areas of the type they have would lead directly to these type of tactics. This situation was predicted with 100% accuracy by experienced CW players such as myself, and the only logical party to blame is PGI for once again appealing to the lowest common denominator and engaging in hand holding and butt wiping instead of making meaningful, well thought out and balanced changes to the CW maps. And not only do the new spawn points not stop bads from being camped, they only drag out the misery for both sides, and encourage the use of these tactics by subpar units (HHoD I'm looking at you) who are made up of players whose greatest fear is scratching their paint job on that lurm 60 Catapult or whatever other badly built mech they are piloting that day.

you can also turn it the other way: PGI created this situation because of a few units not taking care of others. its a 2 sided sword.

not everyone will ever get as good as BMMU or KCom and always remain subpar.
you can tell them as much as you want what they have to do they wont be KCom in their entire life BUT they still want to have fun, in CW too.
the better units out there should NOT have any problems winning a battle even when playing a bit worse to give the not as good players a bit of fun in CW since they dont lose anything with it. they still win.
on the other hand its alot harder for MANY MORE people to play better or keep their interest in a mode high enough to continue playing it. that takes time and not a small amount of talent to get good, alot of people forget this.
its one reason why we will get split queues and propably a even smaller CW playerbase.
its also the reason for all the crying.

the top units cant step down from sealclubbing just because they can. CW might be the top unit playmode we have in the normal game BUT its not a tournament where you have to play the best you can.
you fight normal people that want to shoot mechs and have fun at it. if you go full comp mode against them they wont play anymore.
and for what? just to boost some ego's?
is it worth that? to lose a damn load of players to sealclubbing?

i could have predicted you that its coming so far because its always going on like this. alot of people just dont give a damn about those who you oppose. if you see a damn pug team play in a way you win but at least let them have their fun.
a constant stomp is no fun. its why all the crying ever started.

learn to play with your enemies as well instead of just look at yourself and ignore that you have 12 humans as enemies.

[S_T_R_A_N_G_E]

The easiest way to fix the problem is to add a conquest/ assault counter to Omega. I a counter attacking mech is near Omega and there are no other defending units nearby, the counter goes down. It continues to drop until there is at least one unit near by. If the bar reaches zero, the defenders lose. I would say the bar would take 5 minutes to reach zero no matter how many counter-attacking mechs are near by.

This is an easy fix. Assuming the defending units actually defend, as typical, this eliminates the problem.

In practical terms, CA is about taking omega and clearing enemy mechs... if the mechs don't come out of their drop zones there is nothing to clear out. Hence the attackers win.

[Sandpit]

Alienized, on 22 February 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

i could have predicted you that its coming so far because its always going on like this. alot of people just dont give a damn about those who you oppose. if you see a damn pug team play in a way you win but at least let them have their fun.
a constant stomp is no fun. its why all the crying ever started.

learn to play with your enemies as well instead of just look at yourself and ignore that you have 12 humans as enemies.

Just to illustrate how there's no pleasing people?

Ok, let's say I do that, so according to you, I, as a player, shoudl lose money and actively lower my score so that the opposing team gets a better score and "feels better about themselves"

hmm...

ok what about the ones that then start complaining "they're just prolonging this and dragging it out, why don't they just finish it already so I can get into another game?"

then when you do that it's, "They just came through and beat us within 10 minutes. They just rolled us and went for the objective. Why couldn't they allow us to play longer and earn more rewards?"

So what exactly are we supposed to do? Ask every opposing team at the start of the match how they want us to play it out and bargain for a mutually "fun" ending to the match?

Locke2, on 22 February 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

The easiest way to fix the problem is to add a conquest/ assault counter to Omega. I a counter attacking mech is near Omega and there are no other defending units nearby, the counter goes down. It continues to drop until there is at least one unit near by. If the bar reaches zero, the defenders lose. I would say the bar would take 5 minutes to reach zero no matter how many counter-attacking mechs are near by.

This is an easy fix. Assuming the defending units actually defend, as typical, this eliminates the problem.

In practical terms, CA is about taking omega and clearing enemy mechs... if the mechs don't come out of their drop zones there is nothing to clear out. Hence the attackers win.

so now you just forced defenders to huddle in a specific area, you don't see how that's a bad design?

[Alienized]

Sandpit, on 22 February 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Just to illustrate how there's no pleasing people?

Ok, let's say I do that, so according to you, I, as a player, shoudl lose money and actively lower my score so that the opposing team gets a better score and "feels better about themselves"

hmm...

ok what about the ones that then start complaining "they're just prolonging this and dragging it out, why don't they just finish it already so I can get into another game?"

then when you do that it's, "They just came through and beat us within 10 minutes. They just rolled us and went for the objective. Why couldn't they allow us to play longer and earn more rewards?"

So what exactly are we supposed to do? Ask every opposing team at the start of the match how they want us to play it out and bargain for a mutually "fun" ending to the match?

yes you should lower your personal income a little bit. i do that all time and help my teammates get some more income themselves. i tank for them so they can do damage.
you know, teamplay.
also, if your mech is halfway done, get out the def zone and let them kill you, move a fresh mech into the def. is it so hard?....

if you carefully read my last sentences, it was all about the units that dont have to fight hard to win anyway so i wonder why you even respond.
most of the units wont win easily and those are the better and fun fights. tough fights are fun for everyone. the stomps arent.
thats what my posts been all about and i made that pretty clear.

[B0oN]

The answer to all laser-vomit related questions is ERPPC .

Case closed, jury went for some long island ice teas and golf .

[MischiefSC]

Rad Hanzo, on 22 February 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

The answer to all laser-vomit related questions is ERPPC .

Case closed, jury went for some long island ice teas and golf .

True -

Because laservomit is 100x better than a return of the PPC meta.

[Sandpit]

Alienized, on 22 February 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

yes you should lower your personal income a little bit..

maybe you missed the other part of my post?

What do you do about it when they then complain about you roflstomping them and not letting them earn more rewards?

Or are we now expected to ask the other team "hey, you guys any good? If not, we'll completely disregard the 12 players on our side's desire to win or earn so you guys can have "fun"

At some point some players are just going to have to accept the fact that maybe, just maybe, they're just not very good at this game and it's time to find something they find more fun and enjoyable instead of thinking an entire gaming community should "be nice" and let them lose in the most enjoyable way possible.

I play with some friends that are absolutely horrible at this game. They accept it. They still enjoy playing it. They don't, however, post on the forums asking for the game to be made "easier" for them. This isn't a single player game where you get to determine game difficulty.

[TKSax]

Alienized, on 22 February 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

you can also turn it the other way: PGI created this situation because of a few units not taking care of others. its a 2 sided sword.

not everyone will ever get as good as BMMU or KCom and always remain subpar.
you can tell them as much as you want what they have to do they wont be KCom in their entire life BUT they still want to have fun, in CW too.
the better units out there should NOT have any problems winning a battle even when playing a bit worse to give the not as good players a bit of fun in CW since they dont lose anything with it. they still win.
on the other hand its alot harder for MANY MORE people to play better or keep their interest in a mode high enough to continue playing it. that takes time and not a small amount of talent to get good, alot of people forget this.
its one reason why we will get split queues and propably a even smaller CW playerbase.
its also the reason for all the crying.

the top units cant step down from sealclubbing just because they can. CW might be the top unit playmode we have in the normal game BUT its not a tournament where you have to play the best you can.
you fight normal people that want to shoot mechs and have fun at it. if you go full comp mode against them they wont play anymore.
and for what? just to boost some ego's?
is it worth that? to lose a damn load of players to sealclubbing?

i could have predicted you that its coming so far because its always going on like this. alot of people just dont give a damn about those who you oppose. if you see a damn pug team play in a way you win but at least let them have their fun.
a constant stomp is no fun. its why all the crying ever started.

learn to play with your enemies as well instead of just look at yourself and ignore that you have 12 humans as enemies.

What crap.... Sorry I want everyone to give me there best and they will always get my best. I don't care who is on the other side I want their best. I don't want them to go easy . CW is hard mode, there is not matchmaking you know what you are getting yourself into. I learn something every-time I play, including when I am getting stomped. Yes CW needs lots of improvements and I am looking forward to Phase 3. However your never going to wine every game, there are always people better than you , get over and play harder!

[Alienized]

TKSax, on 23 February 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

What crap.... Sorry I want everyone to give me there best and they will always get my best. I don't care who is on the other side I want their best. I don't want them to go easy . CW is hard mode, there is not matchmaking you know what you are getting yourself into. I learn something every-time I play, including when I am getting stomped. Yes CW needs lots of improvements and I am looking forward to Phase 3. However your never going to wine every game, there are always people better than you , get over and play harder!

again you think only about yourself.
i want to have worthy opponents as well. i love the tough fights more than anything else.
still i have to accept that not everyone can play as good as i can. not everyone wants to put alot of thought behind all the actions that are able to, loadouts and dropdecks.
if you want a CW to be populated you have to think about those too.
thats not something you can program.
im not going easy on anyone as opponent if i am unsure to win, trust me on that BUT since most of you are not able to read out the one big thing i am talking to: do not stomp the opponents just to embarrass them. it happens all time and lets players quit CW.

some people are learning while playing, some need help in forums, some on TS.
some never learn or dont want to since they are totally fine where they are.
you still need those players for a game to live on.

all i read as answers here are personal answers im totally fine with but you only speak out of your own perspective.
i havent read a single answer of anyone that actually includes anyone else but the person that replies.

on a personal note i totally agree with you TKSax, im just as you. i seek better players to learn stuff always willing to get through the hard way to my goal. its what it once was in the gaming community but times have changed.

[Sandpit]

Alienized, on 23 February 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

im not going easy on anyone as opponent if i am unsure to win, trust me on that BUT since most of you are not able to read out the one big thing i am talking to: do not stomp the opponents just to embarrass them. it happens all time and lets players quit CW.

ok will do
now just explain to me how we are supposed to:

Know the opponent's skill level
Prevent "embarrassing" them
Know when "enough" is enough for the enemy team


That's just the attacking team.

Let's move on to defending team:
So now if my team stand int he base as we're supposed to as per the game mode requires to protect Omega, we're "being dbags" because we won't run out to the enemy's spawn point and kill them fast enough.
or
We're being dbags because we rushed out and spawn camped them to end it quickly so we don't "drag out the game and embarrass" them.

Your statement relies entirely on the premise of motive and what's in a player's mind and mentality, not their actions.

Quote

do not stomp the opponents just to embarrass them

so stomps are ok as long as the intent and purpose wasn't to embarrass them right?

As long as you're "ncie" about the stomp and say GG afterwards then nobody should be QQing about being "embarrassed"

[TKSax]

Alienized, on 23 February 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

again you think only about yourself.

No I think about the game and the community I help anyone on my team who asks and who will listen but I will always play my best because I respect my opponents to always give my best, now having siad that there are plenty of times I lay off using strikes and UAV's when it is obvious they are not need to win, but I still play my best because that's what my opponents deserve and should expect, I expect nothing less from them.

You are trying to apply your vision or Morality on a wide a diverse community, when all than needs to be said, is you should always bring your best and do your best, and if not you accept those consequences and not expect the community to conform to your view. CW would be more populated if it was a better game more period, it has nothing to do with big units good teams bad teams.

Edited by TKSax, 23 February 2016 - 10:28 AM.