127 replies to this topic

[brroleg]

Adamski, on 25 February 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

If you balance by tonnage / cost / battle-value / asymmetric teams:

Quickplay gets thrown off, or needs to be rewritten. (How do you level up / play your unquirked Summoner in quickplay against a Timberwolf, when their difference in value is <8% but actual combat effectiveness is closer to 25% different)

Thus, Quirks are actually a good idea, but in places poorly implemented, system for balancing mechs and factions.

read the thread http://mwomercs.com/...02#entry5023602

[Adamski]

Still a bad idea, a Summoner is not 90% as effective as a Timberwolf.

It needs Quirks to balance it.

Thus Quirks are necessary for game balance.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

"Quirk: a peculiar behavioral habit."

When Quirks are used as primary balancing mechanism and all 'Mechs have similar Quirks they lose their meaning (literally) and become just generic buffs by a different name.

Quirks should first be used to augment, accentuate, differentiate and provide uniqueness to a 'Mech, and then to provide a secondary method to balance used only for those 'Mechs that really need it.

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 25 February 2016 - 07:08 PM.

[Adamski]

Considering each Battlemech variant has its own unique set of quirks, I think they retain their dictionary definition just fine.

Quirks are also used to add differentiation between different variants of the same chassis, so they check off that requirement of yours.

The reason that Quirks are used for balance instead of changing base weapon values, is because you cannot buff weapons in a global way, without it favoring some playstyles over others. (Essentially the same way that quirks currently favor some playstyles on some mechs, but applied globally to every mech that wants to use a specific weapon).

[Homeskilit]

Adamski, on 25 February 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

The reason that Quirks are used for balance instead of changing base weapon values, is because you cannot buff weapons in a global way, without it favoring some playstyles over others. (Essentially the same way that quirks currently favor some playstyles on some mechs, but applied globally to every mech that wants to use a specific weapon).

Then why does damn near every MMO PvP game make balance changes to its items? While it is true that by buffing and nerfing weapons globally you are effecting the meta and playstyles, that only lasts until the next set of balance changes. It is only a problem in MWO because PGI takes 6+ months to makes changes when it should be 2 weeks to a month.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Adamski, on 25 February 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

Considering each Battlemech variant has its own unique set of quirks, I think they retain their dictionary definition just fine.

I suppose this is a POV issue, but lots of 'Mechs share the same or similar Quirks/Quirk-sets. This really does make them less special.

Adamski, on 25 February 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

Quirks are also used to add differentiation between different variants of the same chassis, so they check off that requirement of yours.

Sometimes the disparity between variants is too much, sometime not enough. There are frequently visible aspects of the chassis not reflected in the Quirks and sometimes the Quirks are so disparate across variants as to be nonsensical.

I would much prefer each Quirk-set to reflect the features of the chassis and then the variant, in that order.

Adamski, on 25 February 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

The reason that Quirks are used for balance instead of changing base weapon values, is because you cannot buff weapons in a global way, without it favoring some playstyles over others. (Essentially the same way that quirks currently favor some playstyles on some mechs, but applied globally to every mech that wants to use a specific weapon).

That's not strictly true. If weapons are tied to ratios, then the playstyle of each weapon would be differentiated more clearly and the balance between them would be more actual.

Consider:

Lasers - range:heat (longer range, more heat)
AC type - range:weight (lighter weight, longer ranger)

These ratios work across techlines.

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 25 February 2016 - 08:15 PM.

[Adamski]

Homeskilit, on 25 February 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

Then why does damn near every MMO PvP game make balance changes to its items? While it is true that by buffing and nerfing weapons globally you are effecting the meta and playstyles, that only lasts until the next set of balance changes. It is only a problem in MWO because PGI takes 6+ months to makes changes when it should be 2 weeks to a month.

That is a problem with PGI's development cycle, not quirks.

Technically, PGI is balancing Clans by changing their equipment values, then using quirks on the underperformers, like you suggest you want, but the SMN, MLX, etc still are in a bad place.

So PGI cant win with either method until Paul figures out how his game works, its only been 3.5 years.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Adamski, on 25 February 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

That is a problem with PGI's development cycle, not quirks.

It's a problem with both. The thing about Quirks is that someone has to "decide" the value; that's arbitrary by definition.

When those values are small and few, the problem of being arbitrary is negligible. The bigger they become and more common they become, the more noticeable the arbitrariness become and the greater the difficulty in using them for balance.

That's because as they become bigger, they pull away from the normal rules of the game and skew the entirety of gameplay into an arbitrary place where rules are less important and "decided" values are more important.

Adamski, on 25 February 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

Technically, PGI is balancing Clans by changing their equipment values, then using quirks on the underperformers, like you suggest you want, but the SMN, MLX, etc still are in a bad place.

So PGI cant win with either method until Paul figures out how his game works, its only been 3.5 years.

Technically, maybe; but until they address foundational imbalances like engines, they will not be able to effectively use a system-based approach. The alternative being arbitrary Quirks, that leaves MWO in a state of constant debate with complaints of unfairness from both techlines.

And those complaints are not without merit. As long as we use an arbitrary method to balance the game, we can at best create the illusion of balance (which is really two-way imbalance).