306 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Aresye, on 22 February 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

I swear some of you folks base your opinions on some deeply rooted hatred for Clans ever since FASA released them over 2 decades ago, and won't be content until every Clan mech is completely unplayable.

Its that, and the fact that, due to that same hatred, they never actually play Clan mechs for themselves, so don't understand their drawbacks, and just base everything off what they can build in smurfies (which always LOOKS better, due to smaller lighter stuff being all you see, not burntimes etc).

I mean hell, people are complaining that a 7 TON 7 SLOT targeting computer is powerful, when many IS mechs get well beyond those level of buffs for free from quirks.

Personally, since the last changes i think that balance is better than it ever has been faction to faction. Work still needed on internal faction balance though (structure and/or agility quirks for IICs would be good, buffs for 80 ton IS assaults too).

[Marmon Rzohr]

Aresye, on 22 February 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

And what did we see when this very test was conducted about a month ago? IS won 6 out of 6 games. 48 Clan mechs and 6 IS mechs destroyed total. Even the teams switched techs halfway through to ensure there wasn't a team imbalance.

Even while this test was being conducted, before PGI announced the planned nerfs to the absolutely absurd IS ERLL ranges, there were STILL people advocating to nerf Clan mechs even further.

I swear some of you folks base your opinions on some deeply rooted hatred for Clans ever since FASA released them over 2 decades ago, and won't be content until every Clan mech is completely unplayable.

I don't think it's some deep rooted hatred, but rather a lack of understanding. You pilot IS mechs and when Clan mechs kill you, you say "OMG, they are so easy mode". Same with people who said 6 months ago that the Clans are underpowered because of IS quirks. I mean look at the original post... wrong in just about every way possible (no offense to you OP, but you really should do some research).

Realistically, the only mechs that would take a TC that's bigger than 1 ton are mechs/builds that aren't good anyway and need the quirks. Like the 4xERPPC warkhawk, the Gauss PPC Highlander IIC and other PPC based builds.

[Widowmaker1981]

Marmon Rzohr, on 22 February 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

Realistically, the only mechs that would take a TC that's bigger than 1 ton are mechs/builds that aren't good anyway and need the quirks. Like the 4xERPPC warkhawk, the Gauss PPC Highlander IIC and other PPC based builds.

The buffs to big TCs are really nice actually, and its definitely worth putting a big one in for any Clan mech builds running UACs or PPCs, if there is space. 2xUAC10 + 2xERML +TC5 Warhawk gets a total of +40% projectile velocity (1350 m/s UAC10s.. mmmmm), 4xERPPC TC5 warhawk gets 45% PPC velocity.

Still not worth going past MK1 for laser builds though, and imo they should do SOMETHING for missile builds.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 22 February 2016 - 03:27 AM.

[Repasy Cooper]

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

Just because Clan stock builds don't come nearly as in terrible shape as IS stock builds does not mean stock builds are anywhere near optimized.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8e9a5f483b9e505

^ Just look at that craptastic stock setup, 5 separate weapons, all with different firing patterns, would require godlike coordination and even if all planets did align and you somehow got all weapons to hit a single component, that's still a crappy 41 damage, yes, if you run train wrecks like this I can see how you find IS balanced.

Try it against this random build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ed71d2ce435a6e8

I'd be surprised if the stock guy won even 1 of 10 times and that's against a build that I didn't even take any time to field test and fine tune.

Hahaha, well done for using a jack-of-all-trades mech as an argument for gimpy Clan mechs, you really know how to spin your angle. True, most players would not be able to handle the stock Cauldron-Born well in this game, because the game does not play at all to its advantages.

But you can hardly say the same for the rest of the Clan mechs. Show me how a stock GAR-D is gimpy. How about EBJ-A? Even the MLX-B is fine left just as is. One single mech variant will not support your argument friend.

[Wolfways]

Appogee, on 21 February 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

You can fit out a Storm Crow in any conceivable configuration. And it will still be far tankier than any IS Medium.

lol tankier....
You do realise that is exactly the opposite of what pgi is going for right?

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So stop boating high heat weapons. Build heat balanced builds. Or if you just can't play any other way than laser vomit. Alpha, hide, repeat.

Build heat balanced builds. Like I said, remove or reduce the weapons. i.e. clan mechs carry less weapons than they are supposed to.

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And here we see the mental prison most Clanners seem to have locked themselves into. It's not hard to land a stream of AC shots. I and many other players do it successfully every day. Clan UACs are fantastic.

Some Clan players think laser vomit is their only option. "Hold the laser point on the target" is the definition of easy mode.

So IS AC's that hit a single point for full damage aren't as good as clan AC's that split the damage to different locations? Okay...

Quote

A self-guided weapon system that completely vaporises an IS Light Mech in two passes. And delivers up to 70 point Alphas to every other Mech they shoot at. Which the IS has absolutely no equivalent of.

Yeah, what a terrible weapon system those Clan Streak 4s and 6s are!

Talk to Russ about getting the IS versions in.

Quote

---

But seriously, get a grip. Clan Tech is inherently phenomenal. Being able to fight on with only one torso and a crapton of lighter, longer-ranged weapons, adds at least 30% to my score every match. I have chassis that I can min/max to my heart's content and I'm not confined to playing whatever specific Mechs with specific loadouts made it into Paul's Magical Quirk Cookbook.

So by your reasoning the Jagermech is the best mech in the game as I do better by far with that mech than any other mech in the game.
Oh wait, my wife decided to abandon her clan account because, as she put it, "clan mechs are crap".
Clan mechs must suck!!!

Stupid reasoning...

Still, I do wish I wasn't locked into certain builds with my clan mechs though. Makes no sense to nerf them that hard.

Quote

The remaining IS quirks - on only some IS chassis with only some specific loadouts - are a paltry balancing offset to the significant advantages that every Clan Mech inherently receives.

Even though I am personally benefitting from the recent over-nerfing of IS Mechs, I think it's just embarrassing for those of us who pilot Clans Mechs to have been complaining in the first place.

(And they're STILL complaining! "My Dire Whale got killed by an Oxide, Uncle Russ, you must nerf!" "My ICF isn't as good as my ACH, Uncle Russ, you must buff".)

Dire Wolf is one of the worst mechs in the game imo. Does a lot of damage to anyone who gets caught in front of it but otherwise it's a waste of tonnage.

I admit that the ACH is very good. I had great matches in the trial version, but I'd expect that as most lights are OP anyway (yes I played them) and IS have more to choose from...Oh wait they don't because omnipods make up for that clan weakness. i.e. lack of mech variants.
Well what do you know....balance.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

what if i do play both nearly equally (i have bit less Clan mechs so far), and i still objectively find Clan tech simply better in nearly every way?

lasers we dont even have to debate, they simply are better...
autocannons - barely any contest and in many flavors
gauss rifles? no competition whatsoever
SRM/Streak? they are pocket sized for Clan
PPC? a pretty big sore spot

and LRM, well, this is a pretty big one for me (as are SRM/S-SRM) since i like missiles... i observed better point accuracy with C-LRM, they are useful even at close range, they are just plain cooler, and its much easier to swing them around corners
IS LRM... massive minimum arming distance (which, by the way, is not the way they are supposed to work), and even when the IS LRM actually deal more raw damage on paper, i get questionable results with them sometimes...
not to mention that the piloting and tactical skill requirement for C-LRM is much lower than IS LRM

[Wolfways]

Repasy, on 22 February 2016 - 01:44 AM, said:

I've always piloted the same Clan stock loadouts, I have very few minimally customized Clan mechs. The stock loadouts are so much fun! I could care less about today's laser-barf meta, because it comes and goes like the tide. The real pilots in this game understand that the only way to become consistent in this game is to diverge from the meta, even if only slightly (we are not all made equal in willpower after all). I've even been piloting some stock IS variants lately and damn!!! I never thought I'd hear myself thinking a stock IS variant is awesome! Standard everything, still kicking ***.

How do you play stock clan mechs?
IS mechs are very good using their stock weapons, but I have to customize all the "internals" (DHS, Endo, etc.). After all the game was made for customized IS mechs (which explains why the heat system screws clan mechs).
Clan mechs come already "customized with very little armour (on some) and way too much weaponry for the heat they generate, and almost no ammo.

I don't see how you play clan without rarely firing because you will overheat.

[sycocys]

You learn to not alpha shot with every trigger pull.

[DovisKhan]

Repasy, on 22 February 2016 - 03:28 AM, said:

Hahaha, well done for using a jack-of-all-trades mech as an argument for gimpy Clan mechs, you really know how to spin your angle. True, most players would not be able to handle the stock Cauldron-Born well in this game, because the game does not play at all to its advantages.

But you can hardly say the same for the rest of the Clan mechs. Show me how a stock GAR-D is gimpy. How about EBJ-A? Even the MLX-B is fine left just as is. One single mech variant will not support your argument friend.

Stock MLX - legged in 1 go, a 2x cerml and 2 x cmpl is better since you can have all the armor and more consistent pinpoint damage

Stock EBJ-A is pretty good, though you'd place the CERLL in the torso for much better peeking potential

Stock GAR-D - Each CERLL is at a different arm and you'd want them both in one so you can twist and shield with another arm while retaining your firepower in the main arm. Also better for peeking since you need to expose only half the body.

[Wolfways]

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 01:49 AM, said:

You do understand you just demolished your own argument, by saying you have toe to toe matches with your gimped builds vs optimized IS builds right?

I say exactly the same thing, but swap clan and IS around.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

BS
if you dont modify most IS mechs heavily, they are outright unplayable... you get owned

thats not even an argument, you just said that to say something

[Captian Dralisz]

clans are not op

[Wolfways]

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

You learn to not alpha shot with every trigger pull.

lol well tbh I was thinking about my favourite mech, the MDD-Prime. 2xLPL, 2xMPL, 2xLRM20. It doesn't even come close to being able to handle the heat from the LPL's alone. The only way I've found it barely playable while sticking as close to stock as possible is (like all clan mechs) reduce the size of LRM launcher as they are practically useless anyway (down to LRM5's and 2tons of ammo in this case) and hardly fire the lasers at all.
It sucks really bad...but I love it
Would love to play the stock mech more though, but heat system made for IS and all that....

Thunderbird Anthares, on 22 February 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

BS
if you dont modify most IS mechs heavily, they are outright unplayable... you get owned

thats not even an argument, you just said that to say something

Fit Endo and DHS. Done. (May adjust armour and ammo to taste).

[Pariah Devalis]

Wolfways, on 22 February 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

lol well tbh I was thinking about my favourite mech, the MDD-Prime. 2xLPL, 2xMPL, 2xLRM20. It doesn't even come close to being able to handle the heat from the LPL's alone. The only way I've found it barely playable while sticking as close to stock as possible is (like all clan mechs) reduce the size of LRM launcher as they are practically useless anyway (down to LRM5's and 2tons of ammo in this case) and hardly fire the lasers at all.
It sucks really bad...but I love it
Would love to play the stock mech more though, but heat system made for IS and all that....

Try the Hellbringer out as stock. The thing can barely manage the heat of one of its ERPPC, let alone is able to use the lasers, both ERPPC, and the Streak. Also, tissue paper armor. As a "superstock," with the TC removed or downsized, the AMS removed, the AP removed, and additional armor and heat sinks installed, it isn't nearly as bad, but still too hot.

Post the latest quirk pass, the Adder Prime is actually a very fun little ride, though its TC is way too big and needs to be replaced with more heat sinks.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 22 February 2016 - 04:10 AM.

[DovisKhan]

Wolfways, on 22 February 2016 - 03:56 AM, said:

I say exactly the same thing, but swap clan and IS around.

IS need a lot of tweaking before it's remotely on par with Clans, take for example http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=13&l=stock

^65 ton mech, with 2 lrm15 and 720 ammo, best case scenario you'd get ~300 dmg in that, because you don't ever have 100% lrm accuracy against moving targets.

And that's far from the only crappy stock IS mech, most of them are running at half capacity when out of the box


Find me a clan mech that bad at 65 tons, heck, you'd have to try hard to find one that bad at half the tonnage, even the ebj prime is not that bad

[Nauht]

Aresye, on 22 February 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

lol, okay...so balance is bad because poor IS players take crap mechs against nothing but good Clan mechs?

You don't balance to the scrub tier underhive. You balance at the highest level of play, where both sides take the absolute best mechs and loadouts. You balance in this manner because it takes player skill out of the equation, so you're left with a fairly accurate representation of how the mechs themselves fare against each other.

And what did we see when this very test was conducted about a month ago? IS won 6 out of 6 games. 48 Clan mechs and 6 IS mechs destroyed total. Even the teams switched techs halfway through to ensure there wasn't a team imbalance.

Even while this test was being conducted, before PGI announced the planned nerfs to the absolutely absurd IS ERLL ranges, there were STILL people advocating to nerf Clan mechs even further.

I swear some of you folks base your opinions on some deeply rooted hatred for Clans ever since FASA released them over 2 decades ago, and won't be content until every Clan mech is completely unplayable.

Emphasis added.

But I think it's a lost cause. Certain people will have their bias no matter what.

But you know, it doesn't matter at all. Only PGI have the full data not forum warriors and they've deemed it necessary for these changes.

If it ever swings the other way again, well no biggie for me.. I've got my Unseen (still playing them now) and guess what, they're all IS. So bring it on.

[DovisKhan]

Captian Dralisz, on 22 February 2016 - 04:04 AM, said:

clans are not op

^ that one AC carried the whole team, all the rest aside from a few were crap players, while on IS side everyone was pretty much of even level, says a lot when one guy in a light mech can **** the whole IS team, mostly about his damn good skill, but the mech played a part as well

[Repasy Cooper]

Wolfways, on 22 February 2016 - 03:54 AM, said:

How do you play stock clan mechs?
IS mechs are very good using their stock weapons, but I have to customize all the "internals" (DHS, Endo, etc.). After all the game was made for customized IS mechs (which explains why the heat system screws clan mechs).
Clan mechs come already "customized with very little armour (on some) and way too much weaponry for the heat they generate, and almost no ammo.

I don't see how you play clan without rarely firing because you will overheat.

It takes discipline. That's all, not really rocket science.

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

Stock MLX - legged in 1 go, a 2x cerml and 2 x cmpl is better since you can have all the armor and more consistent pinpoint damage

Stock EBJ-A is pretty good, though you'd place the CERLL in the torso for much better peeking potential

Stock GAR-D - Each CERLL is at a different arm and you'd want them both in one so you can twist and shield with another arm while retaining your firepower in the main arm. Also better for peeking since you need to expose only half the body.

Maybe if the MLX runs straight at you or does the typical nascar circle around one enemy assault. The MLX takes discipline, you have to choose your battles wisely. It's not a frontman, it's the janitor that cleans up the mess left in the wake of a Dire Wolf and the like. Your laser config works too, it's just playing a different style from the stock loadout.

The other two examples were weak. Switching the orientation of two weapons on a mech is up to personal taste and does not affect the damage/heat output in the slightest.

[Widowmaker1981]

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 04:11 AM, said:

IS need a lot of tweaking before it's remotely on par with Clans, take for example http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=13&l=stock

^65 ton mech, with 2 lrm15 and 720 ammo, best case scenario you'd get ~300 dmg in that, because you don't ever have 100% lrm accuracy against moving targets.

And that's far from the only crappy stock IS mech, most of them are running at half capacity when out of the box


Find me a clan mech that bad at 65 tons, heck, you'd have to try hard to find one that bad at half the tonnage, even the ebj prime is not that bad

Why are you going on about stock mechs? Who cares? All stock mechs in this game are terrible, largely because they were designed for a different game where things like different weapon firing profiles and individual weapon locations didnt matter at all, the heat system was FAR less punishing (because rates of fire were much lower), ammo required was much lower (again, due to rates of fire), etc.

If you don't want your face kicked in, customise your mech. I don't see what thats got to do with Clan/IS balance.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 22 February 2016 - 04:20 AM.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Wolf, if you think installing DHS and Endo on most IS mechs does it and you can call it a day.... you might want to re-think your strategy