130 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

The Victor feels like the old Victor but it is still a paper tiger without the needed structure quirks. With as much laser vomit as there is on top of what feels like a much heavier alpha environment, I lose my left side due to a fart in the wind. You can only do so much with a lone AC20. When that ammo runs out...

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 23 February 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

The Victor feels like the old Victor but it is still a paper tiger without the needed structure quirks. With as much laser vomit as there is on top of what feels like a much heavier alpha environment, I lose my left side due to a fart in the wind. You can only do so much with a lone AC20. When that ammo runs out...

Ironically, this indirectly is why the Zeus was prequirked (generally structure-wise) before its initial release. Since the Victor also is very XL dependent, the sides are not even close to being Zeus-level durable.

Then again... the Awesome cries in a corner.

[pwnface]

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

5.) As it stands, the BK, WHM, GHR are all in the topic of top heavy mechs, the BJ is outright the best heavy mech, has been for a while, and has yet to be dethroned by anything...if there is a conversation about best medium, the other breath in that conversation mentions the ENF-4R. Clan mediums have been irrelevant for a long time old friend. In the light bracket, the FS9 is outright better than the ACH for back hunting, without quirks, and without ECM. Period. The ravens are outright better snipers, and the oxide is an outright better brawler against heavier mechs. The cheetah cannot even bring as much armor as those mechs, and cannot go as fast either. Assaults...LOL! Yeah...there is not a conversation to be had there...the DW needs a spotter and a 3 point turn to change direction...any other clan assault is a joke. The EXE is mobile now...as mobile as a TW...it carries as many guns as a TW. Hey...wait...if we are tonnage constrained, and the EXE is a 95 ton TW...why the hell not save 20 tons and bring a damn TW, that can do more builds anyway?

You have a pretty limited grasp of what is good and what isn't.

[Trauglodyte]

Don't hate my Awesome, Death. They're both beautiful betties - they just need some love. Btw, I'm one of those weird Victor drivers that don a STD engine. With the lack of quirks, it is the only way to pilot the thing. Going 65kph isn't much different from 75kph.

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 23 February 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

Don't hate my Awesome, Death. They're both beautiful betties - they just need some love. Btw, I'm one of those weird Victor drivers that don a STD engine. With the lack of quirks, it is the only way to pilot the thing. Going 65kph isn't much different from 75kph.

It only matters if NASCAR is involved (and that your firepower is that much lower using a STD engine on a Victor).

[Nauht]

pwnface, on 23 February 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

You have a pretty limited grasp of what is good and what isn't.

What's he saying wrong then?

BK 58 point laser vomit just got a whole lot more mobile. High chest mounted AC WHM or laser meta, take your pick, was already a strong heavy and they just got buffed.
I'd even add in the MAD right up there cos of its tankiness and mobility.

Oxide was already a killer light.

Exe sucked for exactly the reasons he put - an assault with heavy level firepower and locked gear. Now it got buffed and moves like a 60 tonner with MASC. Jury is still out if this is enough to make up for its locked gear and subpar firepower for a 95t assault.

Everyone knows the firepower of the DW...... and its legendary agility.

The only thing I'd say is that the ACH. That light is still very relevant if only as a complete package that can run ECM too.

Edited by Nauht, 23 February 2016 - 05:48 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nauht, on 23 February 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

What's he saying wrong then?

That the Timby is eclipsed as a heavy by many IS mechs, that the only medium that matters still is BJs, that the FS9-S eclipses the ACH.

He paints a pathetic light on mechs that are still very much strong and still in use on comp.

[Trauglodyte]

Well, I run pretty much stock build on my 9S. AC20, 3x SRM4s, and 2 Md Lasers. I haven't messed with the poptarting since I left. With how slow the Victor jumps now, there isn't much merit in it. Plus, it is a big enough target to laser vomit on in a big way. Of course, I never was that great of a poptarter so chances are good that, being rusty, I'm showing too much of myself.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nauht, on 23 February 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

What's he saying wrong then?

BK 58 point laser vomit just got a whole lot more mobile. High chest mounted AC WHM or laser meta, take your pick, was already a strong heavy and they just got buffed.
I'd even add in the MAD right up there cos of its tankiness and mobility.

Oxide was already a killer light.

Exe sucked for exactly the reasons he put - an assault with heavy level firepower and locked gear. Now it got buffed and moves like a 60 tonner with MASC. Jury is still out if this is enough to make up for its locked gear and subpar firepower for a 95t assault.

Everyone knows the firepower of the DW...... and its legendary agility.

The only thing I'd say is that the ACH. That light is still very relevant if only as a complete package that can run ECM too.

For starters, different mechs are strong at different roles (you know, role warfare) The fact that he only included the BK, WHM, and GHR, which all have specific strengths, and left out the QKD, TBR, and HBR leaves us ???

[Nauht]

Ah I thought he was only talking about IS mechs not mech class as a whole.

Besides, having played/play both sides I'd say balance is in a good spot. I'm not scared of facing a TW in my MAD or WHM even before the corrected agility. I actively hunt clan laser vomiters in my BK. Always fun going toe to toe wit my burn time v theirs.

HBR is nice purely for ECM, which IS dont get.. but then agan IS get ECM in one of its (now) most effective CQB killers, a properly spec'd Fatlas.

ACHs I'd say are a class unto themselves only cos they offer everything a light could want. But the Oxide and FS are still damn good lights.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 February 2016 - 05:50 PM, said:

That the Timby is eclipsed as a heavy by many IS mechs, that the only medium that matters still is BJs, that the FS9-S eclipses the ACH.

He paints a pathetic light on mechs that are still very much strong and still in use on comp.

Ok, if you are going to trade at 300-400m on any map, are you bringing a TW, or a BK?

If you are running a brawl deck, are you bringing a TW for 75 tons, or would you save 15 tons, run a LPL QKD and bring an assault like an Atlas instead?

I can see the argument for gauss/ppc TW in long to mid-long range engagements, or maybe even 4 CERLL simply because super long range...but beyond that (situationally, as I described)...I cannot see where it would be dramatically different...

If you were trading at 500-600m, even, the HBR is a superior choice for less tonnage, with ECM, same gauss vomit alpha, and better mounts to use it.

If you want to run ballistics, the EBJ is at least equal to the TW because of the amount of variety you can get on it. Maybe something like a dual UAC10 build on a TW, but you can do that better on the EBJ...

Gas Guzzler, on 23 February 2016 - 05:51 PM, said:

For starters, different mechs are strong at different roles (you know, role warfare) The fact that he only included the BK, WHM, and GHR, which all have specific strengths, and left out the QKD, TBR, and HBR leaves us ???

The QKD is a great mech, too. The HBR I prefer, almost exclusively, to the TW these days, and the TW is not bad.

I just elaborated more for you above.

Edited by Gyrok, 23 February 2016 - 06:53 PM.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 February 2016 - 05:50 PM, said:

That the Timby is eclipsed as a heavy by many IS mechs, that the only medium that matters still is BJs, that the FS9-S eclipses the ACH.

He paints a pathetic light on mechs that are still very much strong and still in use on comp.

The SCR is good for 2-3 things these days.

CERLL

Streak30

SRM30

Beyond that, it does not reliably suit a lot of roles. It is versatile, but if you are tonnage constrained at all, are you even thinking twice about a BJ-1X instead??

Things the BJ does extremely well:

Lasers

AC20

Gauss (better mount than SCR too...)

PPCs

Yes some mechs have strengths in some areas...you are glossing over the word "situational". It is not a matter of something not having a valid role...instead...this is a matter of the TW not being a de facto choice for everything.

You cannot tell me that comp teams choose a TW for every role a heavy can perform, it is simply not as great as a specialized IS mech for some roles, and many other mechs have better mounts than the TW, and some pack similar/equal punch for less tonnage.

Edited by Gyrok, 23 February 2016 - 06:52 PM.

[pwnface]

Nauht, on 23 February 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

What's he saying wrong then?

For starters, he greatly underestimates how good JR7-IIC, Adders, Stormcrows, Hellbringers, Ebon Jaguars, Timberwolves, Executioners and Dire Wolves are.

Oxides are the best brawling light currently, closely followed by the JR7-IIC. Comparing the FS9 and ACH is kind of irrelevant when they are both kind of outclassed currently. Even IF one were to compare the FS9 and ACH you'd find that they are pretty goddamn close to being balanced with each other even with a 5 ton difference.

Blackjacks are still a fantastic medium mech but without it's ridiculous structure quirks AND with the IS range reduction from the recent patch there is no way they are the "outright the best heavy mech". Pretty sure he meant medium but you get the point. Stormcrows are and have always been extremely strong in the medium weight class. Before the whole ridiculous over-structure affair Stormcrows absolutely dominated the medium class. They are as good if not better than Blackjacks depending on the role that you need to fill.

The IS certainly has some nice heavy mechs to choose from now but there is a reason why comp players are still bringing EBJ, HBR, TBR in their drop decks. They are far from useless or non-competitive. IS laser vomit heavys dont have the same range band as their Clan counter-parts but typically pack a more effective closer range punch. It's a trade off depending on what you are trying to do with your drop deck.

When it comes to assaults, Gyrok thinks the KGC and Mauler are both outright better than the DWF. He's tried to justify this several times with really terrible smurfy builds and has been laughed out of threads at his utter mechlab incompetence. Certainly the agility nerfs hurt the DWF significant, being one of the slowest mechs in the game. It still doesn't change the fact that they have unquestionably the highest damage output potential of any mech on the battlefield. That alone makes it not useless. Obviously if you are planning on doing a quick rotation around a map you won't pick a DWF for your drop deck. However, it's pretty easy to build strats to allow your Dires to get in play and be a significant factor in a match. The Executioner also gets a bunch of hate because people don't know how to play it. I've seen several players do extremely well with them including 1600+ damage matches in quick play and 4300 damage out of a single EXE in CW (Gas is a beast). Just because a lot of players can't use it correctly it doesn't relegate it to "bad mech status".

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 February 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

So tell us again how IS mechs are OP because agility quirks and how much more agile IS mechs are than their Clan counterparts.



Disclaimer: I think Clan-IS Balance is close enough for me, but I do find this recent development absolutely hilarious!

[Gyrok]

pwnface, on 23 February 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

For starters, he greatly underestimates how good JR7-IIC, Adders, Stormcrows, Hellbringers, Ebon Jaguars, Timberwolves, Executioners and Dire Wolves are.

Oxides are the best brawling light currently, closely followed by the JR7-IIC. Comparing the FS9 and ACH is kind of irrelevant when they are both kind of outclassed currently. Even IF one were to compare the FS9 and ACH you'd find that they are pretty goddamn close to being balanced with each other even with a 5 ton difference.

Blackjacks are still a fantastic medium mech but without it's ridiculous structure quirks AND with the IS range reduction from the recent patch there is no way they are the "outright the best heavy mech". Pretty sure he meant medium but you get the point. Stormcrows are and have always been extremely strong in the medium weight class. Before the whole ridiculous over-structure affair Stormcrows absolutely dominated the medium class. They are as good if not better than Blackjacks depending on the role that you need to fill.

The IS certainly has some nice heavy mechs to choose from now but there is a reason why comp players are still bringing EBJ, HBR, TBR in their drop decks. They are far from useless or non-competitive. IS laser vomit heavys dont have the same range band as their Clan counter-parts but typically pack a more effective closer range punch. It's a trade off depending on what you are trying to do with your drop deck.

When it comes to assaults, Gyrok thinks the KGC and Mauler are both outright better than the DWF. He's tried to justify this several times with really terrible smurfy builds and has been laughed out of threads at his utter mechlab incompetence. Certainly the agility nerfs hurt the DWF significant, being one of the slowest mechs in the game. It still doesn't change the fact that they have unquestionably the highest damage output potential of any mech on the battlefield. That alone makes it not useless. Obviously if you are planning on doing a quick rotation around a map you won't pick a DWF for your drop deck. However, it's pretty easy to build strats to allow your Dires to get in play and be a significant factor in a match. The Executioner also gets a bunch of hate because people don't know how to play it. I've seen several players do extremely well with them including 1600+ damage matches in quick play and 4300 damage out of a single EXE in CW (Gas is a beast). Just because a lot of players can't use it correctly it doesn't relegate it to "bad mech status".

The Jenner IIC vomits more SRMs, sure...however...the oxide packs them tighter, and fires more often with a smaller, tighter grouping. Plus, there is the whole ghost heat thing with a full 6 racks of SRMs alpha.

The FS9 and ACH are pretty close, admittedly. As a backhunter, the FS9-S has better range from MPLs, and shorter burn time, meaning less exposure. It is also faster, has more armor, and equally good hit boxes. The ACH has ECM...yeah...no answer for that on the FS9, but if you are picking the ACH solely for ECM, then there are IS mechs that can do that too...

SCRs have a place among mediums, they are the best clan medium currently. I would argue the SHC can do 3 ERLL as well as the SCR, so the long range poke SCRs are likely not as big a deal these days. The Streak boat for anti-light is probably a thing in CW, maybe comp...maybe not. The SRM24 + lasers builds might fit into a brawl deck...but would you bring a ballistic crow with the terrible knuckle dragger ballistic mounts? Would you run a laser crow over a 1X? I am just not seeing it at all being the best option outright.

I outlined heavy mechs above, sure they have a place...though they are not the de facto choice for everything.

Mauler is a great assault, the KGC is not as relevant as it once was, because of the Mauler.

My point is, while I do not think it should be cut and dry clans...because that is not balance. The people in here saying that clans are the only choice are patently false. Reality is, the clans are not the best in the game. Are they really good at some things? Sure...are the clans so good that they are outright better than IS? Nope.

[Nauht]

pwnface, on 23 February 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

For starters, he greatly underestimates how good JR7-IIC, Adders, Stormcrows, Hellbringers, Ebon Jaguars, Timberwolves, Executioners and Dire Wolves are.

....

I agree with absolutely everything you said here. I misunderstood his post cos I thought he was responding to something about IS having no comparable let alone good mechs.

And your reply kinda hinted that you didn't consider any of those mechs he listed were any good when, especially now, they're more than comparable.

Also agree about your Exe comment. I'm a Victor pilot and have been dealing with "bad brawler assault" status ever since it was released. But I do really well in my brawler spec'd 9S. Over 500 games in it and 2.86 kdr in it... and people tell me I can't brawl with an XL Victor.

[pwnface]

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

The Jenner IIC vomits more SRMs, sure...however...the oxide packs them tighter, and fires more often with a smaller, tighter grouping. Plus, there is the whole ghost heat thing with a full 6 racks of SRMs alpha.

I already stated in my response that Oxides are better. We don't have a point of contention here.

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

The FS9 and ACH are pretty close, admittedly. As a backhunter, the FS9-S has better range from MPLs, and shorter burn time, meaning less exposure. It is also faster, has more armor, and equally good hit boxes. The ACH has ECM...yeah...no answer for that on the FS9, but if you are picking the ACH solely for ECM, then there are IS mechs that can do that too...

You are comparing the FS9 to an ACH build with ER-SL... An ACH can run 6xC-SPL which is a bigger punch than the 30 of the FS9-S. It also has a clan XL, no matter how many times you try to tell people it isn't an advantage it is still a big one. The ACH is also 5 tons lighter for essentially 90% combat effectiveness of a FS9 and ECM.

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

SCRs have a place among mediums, they are the best clan medium currently. I would argue the SHC can do 3 ERLL as well as the SCR, so the long range poke SCRs are likely not as big a deal these days. The Streak boat for anti-light is probably a thing in CW, maybe comp...maybe not. The SRM24 + lasers builds might fit into a brawl deck...but would you bring a ballistic crow with the terrible knuckle dragger ballistic mounts? Would you run a laser crow over a 1X? I am just not seeing it at all being the best option outright.

See now you are stepping back from your original claim that the blackjack is the "outright the best heavy mech"..

You make outlandish statements constantly and are forced to eat your words because they are wild exaggerations.

[Gyrok]

Nauht, on 23 February 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

I agree with absolutely everything you said here. I misunderstood his post cos I thought he was responding to something about IS having no comparable let alone good mechs.

That is primarily because I was...and several here misunderstood the message I was putting forth. I am glad you grasped the intent, because I was pointing out that clans are not the outright best mechs in the game. There are other mechs that are quite competitive.

pwnface, on 23 February 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

See now you are stepping back from your original claim that the blackjack is the "outright the best heavy mech"..

You make outlandish statements constantly and are forced to eat your words because they are wild exaggerations.

I am not stepping back from my original position.

The BJ is likely still the outright best MEDIUM mech (yes that was a typo...)...that is not to say others do not have a place.

However, I think you misunderstood the intent of the message, because I was replying, originally, to someone who was stating that clans are outright best in the game. My point was to show that there are quite a few IS mechs that are quite competitive.

Hence I left out the clan heavy mechs, because it was assumed that the point would be looking at the other side of the coin.

Edited by Gyrok, 23 February 2016 - 07:20 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

Ok, if you are going to trade at 300-400m on any map, are you bringing a TW, or a BK?

You take a BK.

If you need to trade at 400-600 though, I'd go Timby.

You can't honestly expect the Timby to be good at all range brackets and consider that fair can you?

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

If you are running a brawl deck, are you bringing a TW for 75 tons, or would you save 15 tons, run a LPL QKD and bring an assault like an Atlas instead?

I wouldn't bring an LPL QKD for a brawl deck because it isn't brawly. If I want an SRM heavy, I take a Timby, if I need something to poke holes into mechs, I take a BK.

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

I can see the argument for gauss/ppc TW in long to mid-long range engagements, or maybe even 4 CERLL simply because super long range...but beyond that (situationally, as I described)...I cannot see where it would be dramatically different...

So 2 of the 4 range brackets, yes, let's ignore those.

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

If you were trading at 500-600m, even, the HBR is a superior choice for less tonnage, with ECM, same gauss vomit alpha, and better mounts to use it.

Gauss vomit isn't great at that range.....or did you forget the ERML max range nerf?

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

The SCR is good for 2-3 things these days.

CERLL
Streak30
SRM30

ERLL is not that great on the SCrow, it shows too much of the torso to actually be worth it compared to the SCat, BJ, or SHD-2K. It can still however do 2 LPL-3 ERML or 1 LPL-6 ERML. With the BJ nerfs and the fact this got slightly unnerfed this is good again. Either way, it isn't the god of mediums, and neither is the BJ, sounds like decent parity to me.

Gyrok, on 23 February 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

Things the BJ does extremely well:

Lasers - I wouldn't say it does them better than the SCrow.

AC20 - No one cares, because AC20s aren't good enough

Gauss - The backup lasers aren't long enough range to really matter.

PPCs

FTFY

[Y E O N N E]

RIP 365 m MedLas+Goose Blackjack.