40 replies to this topic

[ScarecrowES]

Zordicron, on 27 February 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

Care to speculate on a "size scale" from smallest to biggest for the IS assaults after a rescale?

Who needs to speculate? The rescale is being accomplished based on a complete volumetric measurement of each model, and an assumed tonnage per cubic measurement unit (density). Thus, each model will be rescaled so that it's volumetric size corresponds to the correct tonnage for that model at a given assumed density. The "size scale" will be 100% accurate to tonnage ratings. A 100-ton assault will be 25% larger than an 80-ton assault (the 80-ton being 80% of the size of the 100-ton). All you'd have to do is arrainge each mech in order according to weight, and you then also sort them according to size.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zordicron, on 27 February 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

I agree with this sentiment.

Care to speculate on a "size scale" from smallest to biggest for the IS assaults after a rescale? IMO the Victor and the Awesome are going to be on the small end, and the "new Stalker" will be firmly in the middle, if not creeping to the larger side. there are a lot of them though where I am not sure how they will end up.... will PGI make the Banshee bigger because it is considered one of the better assaults and more size= less durability..... Will a Mauler end up being as big as an Atlas(sort of like MW4), will Zeus see an upscale, as it is one of the smaller ones now, but isn;t considered super good?

That's the type of thing I am wondering about in futility as we have such little info about it. One can hope in the end, each mech will be "just right" and balance will be such that there is no lopsided "the best hands down" type mechs, but the realist in me thinks this rescale is just going to swap some of the mechs around and crown a different batch royalty.

Hard to say. From the side, Stalker should have a noticeable profile, but without swinging arms, it would be easier to keep compact, all things being equal, and from the front, it's profile should be small. (Smallest assault profile from the front)

[LORD TSARKON]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

Hard to say. From the side, Stalker should have a noticeable profile, but without swinging arms, it would be easier to keep compact, all things being equal, and from the front, it's profile should be small. (Smallest assault profile from the front)

Noooooo Dont mess with my Stalkers!!! I agree they are not scaled correctly though....
Here is a Stalker next to a Locust...


How about fixing the most needed Mechs first though... like the Catapult, Awesome,ect

[Bishop Steiner]

LORD TSARKON, on 27 February 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

Noooooo Dont mess with my Stalkers!!! I agree they are not scaled correctly though....
Here is a Stalker next to a Locust...


How about fixing the most needed Mechs first though... like the Catapult, Awesome,ect

The goal, apparently, is to fix them all, then release them en masse.

Course, if they'd listened to the ScaleNazi Legion (including myself) over the last 3 hrs, they'd have a lot less work too do now.

[KodiakGW]

ScarecrowES, on 27 February 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

But I agree in principle... to just get some rescaled mechs out there to tide over some of the more rabid in the fanbase. But from an implimentation and balancing standpoint, it's probably easier to drop them in as close to one go as they can.

Problem is, they have a bad history with doing too much at one time. Anybody remembering the 5000% missile cool down on PTS? Or, not having any of the movement quirks applied after the Skill Tree/Quirks 2.0 pass?

Looks like the Nova is pretty set, and something tells me the Dragon is also almost done. Pop those in with their quirk changes sooner than later.

[ScarecrowES]

KodiakGW, on 27 February 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

Problem is, they have a bad history with doing too much at one time. Anybody remembering the 5000% missile cool down on PTS? Or, not having any of the movement quirks applied after the Skill Tree/Quirks 2.0 pass?

Looks like the Nova is pretty set, and something tells me the Dragon is also almost done. Pop those in with their quirk changes sooner than later.

The only reason I might say releasing together works better would be because then you can see all the mechs set relative to each other right away, rather than having incremental shifts. For the sake of balancing the new sizes and required quirks, one shot is better.

[GernMiester]

I like running around in a Kinatro and being the same size as a mech 20 tons heavier. Doing well is that much more satisfying when you use T3 mechs.

[MauttyKoray]

Zordicron, on 27 February 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

Didn't see a thread about this. IMO, it was pretty dang big news. Not just performance per chassis stuff, but there are a lot of balance implications. What do you think might happen when this goes live?

Discuss here.

We've known they acknowledged the scale problem a while back, last town hall I believe was the official confirmation it was happening.

[MauttyKoray]

ScarecrowES, on 27 February 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

Who needs to speculate? The rescale is being accomplished based on a complete volumetric measurement of each model, and an assumed tonnage per cubic measurement unit (density). Thus, each model will be rescaled so that it's volumetric size corresponds to the correct tonnage for that model at a given assumed density. The "size scale" will be 100% accurate to tonnage ratings. A 100-ton assault will be 25% larger than an 80-ton assault (the 80-ton being 80% of the size of the 100-ton). All you'd have to do is arrainge each mech in order according to weight, and you then also sort them according to size.

Yeah...its crazy, but geometry and mathematics are a great thing. Easy example - Atlas and Dire Wolf are both 100 tons, however the Atlas will be taller because of its humanoid shapes that spreads that 100 tons into a larger area, meanwhile the Dire Wolf is more compact and would be smaller because its tonnage is concentrated.

Fun fact, something interesting to note, a Dire Wolf is actually smaller than something like the Timber Wolf (barely) in Battletech, lol. I'm obviously not saying that we should follow this scaling, but its amusing to know that a lot of mechs are actually really close in size, especially the bigger ones.


In fact, here's basically what they're actually doing, scaling not just by size but by the mech's 'volume'. The image is basically how the Atlas would be scaled at different tonnages by its volume compared to other mechs of that size.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 27 February 2016 - 09:06 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

MauttyKoray, on 27 February 2016 - 09:00 PM, said:

Yeah...its crazy, but geometry and mathematics are a great thing. Easy example - Atlas and Dire Wolf are both 100 tons, however the Atlas will be taller because of its humanoid shapes that spreads that 100 tons into a larger area, meanwhile the Dire Wolf is more compact and would be smaller because its tonnage is concentrated.

"Smaller" would be incorrect word usage. Assuming the same density, any 100-ton mech would be the same size as any other 100-ton mech. The volume would be the same. Specific dimensions would obviously be different, as would the surface area. So the basic composition of the Atlas and Dire Wolf chassis are different... The Atlas has a basic upright humanoid model... tall and wide, but thin. As you say, given the hunched setup of the Dire Wolf, it's prone to being shorter. In fact, it should be MUCH shorter than an Atlas, given that it has a torso with significantly more depth.

So saying "bigger" or "smaller" isn't good usage. The Atlas and Dire Wolf will be the same size... but achieve that size differently. The compactness of the Dire Wolf should make it appear very short standing next to an Atlas... like... mid torso on that mech. It should also have much less surface area as compared to the Atlas. That means MUCH smaller hitboxes overall due to volume efficiency. Humans have a good visual sense for volume comparison, so you should be able to see that an 80-ton and 100-ton mech have different volumes, even if they are the same height. And you should be able to tell if two mechs are approximately the same volume, even though they have different dimensions.

[Zordicron]

See this is what I am saying here.

In Battletech, the mech size isn;t some linear thing where a 50 ton mech is 50% size of a 100 ton. Some mechs were bigger then "they should have been" but then, in rule set where actual dimensions really didn;t matter because of how the to hit rolls worked, rule of cool and artist interpretation were what set the design.

Now we have MWO. Size matters, between that and how it correlates to hitbox function might just be the one most important thing on how a mech will perform. And as such, regardless of if PGI was trying to follow the source or not on mech size, the player base expected a mech to be "the right size" for MWO, meaning basically the right size to make it's hitboxes spread dmg well enough to work in game.

We have a picture of a Nova. We don;t know how the rest will be compared to it. Will PGI use the rescale to "help out" underperformers? "Tone down" some of the better mechs? Are they just going to set up a standard based on tonnage, and let things go where they go? IMO, that last one will end up in just as much imbalance as we have now, just in the form of different crowned kings.

Not to keep coming back to Stalkers but.... what if they decide the correct size for it's tonnage is Warhawk? Then we have a Warhawk without arms for a Stalker, and we know how durable a Warhawks ST are. Hitbox not changing, if the Stalker simply gets "bigger" it could possibly become substantially easier to slice off a ST vs how the mech functions now.

Again, I do not fear change, but the rescale could, IMO, completely stand the mech tier ratings on their head and part of me has insatiable curiosity on how it will pan out.

Edited by Zordicron, 28 February 2016 - 07:00 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

It is going to shake up balance. No doubt about it. Even if the Nova loses 50% of its structure quirks when rescaled, the mech's survivability is going to absolutely skyrocket because it will be that much easier to armor roll. A smaller target doesn't need to move very much to smear a laser fired at 500 meters, after all. To that, I say "good" because offensively it hits a catch-22; carry enough firepower to be a serious threat but sacrifice any sort of heat efficiency, be heat efficient but be slightly underwhelming in its firepower, or carry the firepower and heat efficiency but almost no range.

Somehow I expect the IFR and Shadow Cat to get smaller, which should help them a bit. Unfortunately, I also somehow suspect the Stormcrow will also get edited, though not by much. The smaller the mech, the easier to armor roll, so that means the SCR might get even more difficult to kill, if only just a little bit.

As far as heavies, Quickdraw, Catapult, and Mad Dog are going to be some big winners. If they shrink then their survivability increases. If their survivability increases, their viability does as well - relative to their other heavy brothers.

My concern, however, is that since they will be re-evaluating mechs after rescale, some quirks that are unrelated to resizing might get dumped, and that's not good. Take the NVA's heat generation quirks for an example. Making the mech smaller won't make it any more heat efficient. I'm worried the rescale will cause PGI to throw the baby out with the bathwater on several mechs, quirkwise.

[Trauglodyte]

I can't wait for the Cicada to get resized. It has been abhorrent compared to the Jenner from the very beginning of the game. The benefit to some of this is that the more egregious Light mechs might be getting thicker.

[Zordicron]

Trauglodyte, on 28 February 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

I can't wait for the Cicada to get resized. It has been abhorrent compared to the Jenner from the very beginning of the game. The benefit to some of this is that the more egregious Light mechs might be getting thicker.

Now there is a thought....

How far back did they start using this new volume assesment style? People have said in the past mechs like say... the Wolfhound are fairly durable, and have nice hitboxes. Was the Wolfhound designed with this new volume style? Or did they start after? Are any of the existing mechs basically good as is, like say, the unseen packs? I would have to think stuff like the Rofleman was released in a format that wouldnrt require a rescale 1 month later haha. But how far back does it go?

[ScarecrowES]

Zordicron, on 28 February 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

Now there is a thought....

How far back did they start using this new volume assesment style? People have said in the past mechs like say... the Wolfhound are fairly durable, and have nice hitboxes. Was the Wolfhound designed with this new volume style? Or did they start after? Are any of the existing mechs basically good as is, like say, the unseen packs? I would have to think stuff like the Rofleman was released in a format that wouldnrt require a rescale 1 month later haha. But how far back does it go?

None of the mechs, as far as we know, were designed with any actual relative volumetric assessment done. Scaling was performed in part as an aesthetic exercise by the artist, and in part in comparison to how these mechs are represented in sourcebooks.

The new volumetric assessments have been performed as a part of the rescale project. Basically, PGI wanted to figure out, once and for all, just how big these mechs were relative to each other. The reasoning, I suppose, is that if you're going to redesign mechs again for rescale purposes, you should probably know definitively where they actually sit now.

As such, Russ has stated that, of the 60+ mechs we currently have in game, somewhere around 10 or less have models that actually fit their tonnage - or close to it. He hasn't elaborated on which 10 mechs are pretty close and won't be seeing adjustments, so we really can't guess how things will end up. But you can see with the Nova just how far off the sizing was on some of those mechs.

[GreenHell]

Zordicron, on 27 February 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

-snip- will Zeus see an upscale, as it is one of the smaller ones now, but isn;t considered super good?

The Zeus? IMO, that thing is already a brick-****-house of a 'mech with "awesome syndrome". Plz... no.

-Edit- @Scarecrow: You are correct about the sizing. The Atlas and Direwolf should have the same "volume", and the difference will come in their shape, giving them an "apparent size difference" based on how you looked at them. From above? Whale is a massive landing pad, while the Atlas would 'appear' much smaller. Same situation when viewed from the side. Front or back though? Atlas 'appears' bigger thanks to it's taller build.

Edited by GreenHell, 28 February 2016 - 12:09 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

GreenHell, on 28 February 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

The Zeus? IMO, that thing is already a brick-****-house of a 'mech with "awesome syndrome". Plz... no.

-Edit- @Scarecrow: You are correct about the sizing. The Atlas and Direwolf should have the same "volume", and the difference will come in their shape, giving them an "apparent size difference" based on how you looked at them. From above? Whale is a massive landing pad, while the Atlas would 'appear' much smaller. Same situation when viewed from the side. Front or back though? Atlas 'appears' bigger thanks to it's taller build.

Exactly. I'm curious if the Atlas (and Kodiak) will need even more structure and armor quirking after this. The profile on humanoid mechs will skyrocket compared to their hunched cousins, which means putting juicy hitboxes on full display for everyone. I have a feeling that the Dire Wolf will become unbelievably durable after resizing. And hell, the Warhawk might be godly in this regard... it will probably end up with one of the smallest frontal torso profiles of any assault mech.

[Cy Mitchell]

I believe he said the Kodiak will be properly scaled upon release as will every other subsequent Mech because they will be using the new method during their development.4

[GreenHell]

ScarecrowES, on 28 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Exactly. I'm curious if the Atlas (and Kodiak) will need even more structure and armor quirking after this. The profile on humanoid mechs will skyrocket compared to their hunched cousins, which means putting juicy hitboxes on full display for everyone. I have a feeling that the Dire Wolf will become unbelievably durable after resizing. And hell, the Warhawk might be godly in this regard... it will probably end up with one of the smallest frontal torso profiles of any assault mech.

Well actually, it's a double edged sword. Yes the Atlas will 'appear bigger' from the front than the Whale, but when an Atlas pilot twists to spread damage he makes his mech 'appear' much smaller than the Whale, whereas the Whale is basically the same size no matter which way you view it from. Twisting does absolutely nothing to make the Whale a harder target to hit because of it's nearly cubed shape.

[Macksheen]

Mechs like the treb that are skinny front to back may feel a bit of pain on this, whole thing's like the dragon and it's extending front to back stuff may get a wee boost.

Curious how they will rationalize with module pods on things like the catapult, Mauler, timber, etc