141 replies to this topic

[Templar Dane]

JC Daxion, on 29 February 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

I missed the part where i said anything about them not having fun.. I will tell you one thing.. Listening to people preach about why LRM's are deficient in game is NOT fun, which in the OP's post he says.. Tell everyone you meet.. Ya, fun times..



We all know LRM's spread damage, i also know, that many people don't have good aim, so hitting, verse missing is always better. I also know that those players that play in the lower levels, can do well with them. But i'm not going to debate this. I just know, telling people how to run their mechs in a match is Not fun, outside of perhaps a little friendly advice for obvious things.. like shooting out of range, or under range, or other obvious new player mistakes..

It's not JUST about them spreading damage.

Sandblasting the dirt off the enemy mech if you hit at all

Cover
Radar Derp
ECM
Massed AMS
Relying on others to get locks
Being a free kill if/when someone flanks the team and finds you
Expecting others to spend 40k cbills for a UAV
Delayed damage
Not sharing the armor load with the rest of the team

I can go on and on. What it comes down to is that most maps are not LRM friendly. If there were maps that had an effect that made lasers do zero damage, and 90% of all maps had that effect.......I'd be saying the same thing about lasers.

[Otto Cannon]

lordtzar, on 29 February 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

For LRMs to do that someone has lock them first. If you can see the enemy, you could always........shoot them with something that isn't LRMs. At least that way you'll do damage to them before they go into cover.

That's my point. If you can see them you'd be better off with direct fire. If someone else can see them then they will be shooting them with something that isn't LRMs and also with any LRMs on your team- which magnifies their firepower and makes damn sure the target is forced to duck back and stop firing if they don't want to be hammered into the ground like a tent peg.

[mogs01gt]

[Aetes Nakatomi]

Dear everyone.

Buy my Mech packs and then you can tell me how to fit my imaginary robots. Otherwise go shove a stick where the sun don't shine, sit on it and swivel.

[Mead]

I'll continue to use LRMs for as long as it irritates the Play Police. Keep making those videos!

[Anyone00]

It would help LRMs a bit if the ammo per ton were raised to 240 (2x table top) from the current 180 (1.5x tt) since it could make it a tiny bit more viable for heavy and assaults to carry a lrm 5 or two to provide supplemental-fire/suppression while it lumbers into position to use direct fire weapons; along with making IS light lrms mechs a bit more approaching viable.
Unlike direct fire weapons (and to some extent even SRMs) you can't much control were LRMs hit on a mech; yes SSRMs but those have a direct analog in SSRMs.

The next test server I would like to see that above ammo increase, the max range reduced to 800m, and the speed increased by 20%-25% to see what happens.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Dont take advise on a topic from somebody that is not familiar with that topic, such as the guy who made the vid in OP

[NephyrisX]

My response is to run more LRMs.

[Gyrok]

Otto Cannon, on 29 February 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

That's my point. If you can see them you'd be better off with direct fire. If someone else can see them then they will be shooting them with something that isn't LRMs and also with any LRMs on your team- which magnifies their firepower and makes damn sure the target is forced to duck back and stop firing if they don't want to be hammered into the ground like a tent peg.

That is true...until...

1.) The spotter is focus fired and killed

2.) The UAV is shot down

3.) ECM moves in to cover the target

4.) the LRM boat is focused by a flanking force that kills it because LRM boat

The problem with this is...most people in the YOLO queue end up with a result above, and a terrible match score that reflects how poor the weapon system as a whole is...and they yell "stupid team" or "nubs" or berate everyone for "not holding locks".

To make my point...when someone comes in and announces they have LRMs, or they want/need locks....I do not lock a single target all match...and my clan mates will not either. Eventually, if you starve them long enough, they will figure out that they need something that is not LRMs on their mech...or they will drop in PSR enough they end up in the church of low skill.

Edited by Gyrok, 29 February 2016 - 03:29 PM.

[Bilbo]

Gyrok, on 29 February 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

That is true...until...

1.) The spotter is focus fired and killed

2.) The UAV is shot down

3.) ECM moves in to cover the target

4.) the LRM boat is focused by a flanking force that kills it because LRM boat

The problem with this is...most people in the YOLO queue end up with a result above, and a terrible match score that reflects how poor the weapon system as a whole is...and they yell "stupid team" or "nubs" or berate everyone for "not holding locks".

To make my point...when someone comes in and announces they have LRMs, or they want/need locks....I do not lock a single target all match...and my clan mates will not either. Eventually, if you starve them long enough, they will figure out that they need something that is not LRMs on their mech...or they will drop in PSR enough they end up in the church of low skill.

Seems to me that if people can't seem to make them work they would take them off eventually anyway. Not utilizing that player as a resource while they are on your team just doesn't make much sense to me. They'll either be useful or not. Actively working against their interest is actively working against your team's interest in my mind.

[Metus regem]

mogs01gt, on 29 February 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

So everyone has to run the same setup.. got it, COD here we come!

Wait, we're not there already? With the amount of "meta-mechs" running around....

[Mead]

Gyrok, on 29 February 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

To make my point...when someone comes in and announces they have LRMs, or they want/need locks....I do not lock a single target all match...and my clan mates will not either.

Lawl. Just.. wow. But that's okay, this validates a few private observations I've made. By all means, continue.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Bilbo, on 29 February 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

Seems to me that if people can't seem to make them work they would take them off eventually anyway. Not utilizing that player as a resource while they are on your team just doesn't make much sense to me. They'll either be useful or not. Actively working against their interest is actively working against your team's interest in my mind.

I think a lot of people forget this is a team game.
Their egos are so fragile they think they are in competition with even their own squadmates.
They also dont understand small squad tactics (or any combat tactics for that matter) and more than likely never played little league as a kid, what more anything more serious that requires teamwork (read: prototypical antisocial videogame behavior)

[Gyrok]

Bilbo, on 29 February 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

They'll either be useful or not. Actively working against their interest is actively working against your team's interest in my mind.

If they bring LRMs in the group queue...they are dead weight to be carried any way...why the hell should I encourage them to be dead weight any longer than they already have been?

Then they try to tell you how LRMs are a great weapon, and this match was a rarity because "nobody gave me locks..."

Screw that guy.

Boogie138, on 29 February 2016 - 03:54 PM, said:

I think a lot of people forget this is a team game.
Their egos are so fragile they think they are in competition with even their own squadmates.
They also dont understand small squad tactics (or any combat tactics for that matter) and more than likely never played little league as a kid, what more anything more serious that requires teamwork (read: prototypical antisocial videogame behavior)

No, I understand completely this is a team game...

People who refuse to listen to obvious advice and bring something that is less than the best option are already handicapping their team as it is. When I run drops...if someone in my group brings LRMs, they get kicked from the group until they find something without LRMs on it. They are dead space, a complete waste...and drag down the team.

If you make a choice to burden your team with having to carry you with a crappy, sub-optimal, hard countered weapon system, *and* have the balls to ask me to get locks for you because you cannot even bother to bring your own TAG...then I am not going to encourage you to do it anyway...I already have to pick up your slack this match.

Edited by Gyrok, 29 February 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[Bilbo]

Gyrok, on 29 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

If they bring LRMs in the group queue...they are dead weight to be carried any way...why the hell should I encourage them to be dead weight any longer than they already have been?

Then they try to tell you how LRMs are a great weapon, and this match was a rarity because "nobody gave me locks..."

Screw that guy.

The fellow is much more likely to come to the conclusion that he can't effectively use LRM's if he repeatedly does poorly with support than if he occasionally does poorly with none. I could be wrong of course.

[Lykaon]

Otto Cannon, on 29 February 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

If you have direct line of sight then direct fire weapons will always be better.

If you have no line of sight then direct fire weapons are utterly useless.

There is a use to LRMs that is situational yet a situation you can manufacture. And these commonets touch on this situation.

Everyone who has played MWo for any amount of time has come across a situation where fire arcs are limited. The enemy has control of a bottleneck or corner and sitting still trading popshots all match is not a winning strategy.

So you have to push and go on the offensive. The problem is your fire lane is one or two mechs wide limiting your ability to put direct fire weapons onto the targets.

If all you have is direct fire mechs you will be engaging two at a time at best IF one of the lead two mechs survive long enough to clear the choke point you may get a third direct fire mech into play but,realisticly you take casualties first.

Now if you have an LRM close support chassis on that line you do get to fire over your friendlies.In addition to applying more damage you will also be disrupting visability as the LRMs shake and blind the target.

And it's not to difficult to stay in formation with your typical line breaker mechs like Kingcrabs and other heavy weight assaults.

I like Medium chassis for this function they are quick enough to not be in the way if the front line needs to fall back.

this works best with an actual team that are aware of the technique and I recommend giving it a try on certain CW maps where choke points and blind corners can be an issue.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Gyrok, on 29 February 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

If they bring LRMs in the group queue...they are dead weight to be carried any way...why the hell should I encourage them to be dead weight any longer than they already have been?

Then they try to tell you how LRMs are a great weapon, and this match was a rarity because "nobody gave me locks..."

Screw that guy.



No, I understand completely this is a team game...

People who refuse to listen to obvious advice and bring something that is less than the best option are already handicapping their team as it is. When I run drops...if someone in my group brings LRMs, they get kicked from the group until they find something without LRMs on it. They are dead space, a complete waste...and drag down the team.

If you make a choice to burden your team with having to carry you with a crappy, sub-optimal, hard countered weapon system, *and* have the balls to ask me to get locks for you because you cannot even bother to bring your own TAG...then I am not going to encourage you to do it anyway...I already have to pick up your slack this match.

You have a very one dimensional understanding of the game, which is fine. I really dont understand why you are salty over it though.
I

[SQW]

The hate for LRMs must be coming from people who regularly gets killed by LRMs - this amount of rage can only come from being killed by what he/she considers an inferior weapon. Oh, how the French knights must have raged against the English longbows for not playing 'fair' and using a noob weapon instead of a proper brawling one like real men.

To the LRM boats. If you aren't running a tag laser AND some backup weapons AND have visual of where most of your shots are landing (narc excepted), you've basically failed in LRM. Your only comfort of high dmg score is a lie and you know it because it's the only thing you can cling to.

LRM is fine. The pilot community definitely needs a buff though.

Edited by SQW, 29 February 2016 - 04:39 PM.

[Tarogato]

As somebody who agrees that LRMs are bad and you shouldn't use them, I didn't find that this video was enough to convince somebody of that. Mundi didn't talk about some of the advantages that LRMs bring:

- suppression fire: even the best players in the game will usually back down and seek cover when they hear LRMs coming
- indirect fire: cramming 12 mechs into one firing line is challenging. An LRM boat can full contribute without crowding the front line
- LRM boats don't need to relocate as much to assist teammates, because indirect fire
- the build that was demonstrated was not very good - 4x LRM15a is hot and spreads a lot of damage. LRM10's would be a better example.
- despite the terrible spread, the demonstrated LRMs actually cored the stationary targets better than most CW players can with laservomit.


Because of these advantages you'll never be able to convince a chronic LRM user that LRMs are bad. Some new players maybe, but not even all of them.

[Pjwned]

lordtzar, on 29 February 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

LRMS are dogshit. There's what like 2 maps in regular and one single map where they can do anything in CW.

Even if the enemy team has zero ecm and nobody has ams, most maps are chock full of cover from lrms. I mostly play CW now and these guys that bring a dropdeck full of LRMs is like having a permanently disconnected player on your team.

Boreal is the only map in cw that has any real potential for them, and that's only if a few conditions are met.

1. The enemy team needs to be light on ecm
2. The enemy team needs to be light on ams
3. You have to have a spotter/dedicated narc light
4. Your team has to have more than one lrm boat or #3 makes it so you have two wasted slots in your team instead of one

I've seen LRMs do really well on boreal but the team was made for it. They had a lot of lrms, some on dedicated boats, and most/all of the other mechs on the team went to the trouble of fitting some LRMs along with their other weapons. They had at least two narcing lights the entire match.

I've seen that one or maybe twice at most. Every other map has either lots of cover, or is nothing BUT cover from LRMS(grim portico).

So 6 maps in CW.........

Boreal Vault - Can do well with LRMS if your team is set up for it
Emerald Taiga - Plenty of cover inside gates. If the fight were outside the gates you're winning/losing pretty hard anyway
Grim Portico - hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha no
Hellbore Springs - Same deal as Emerald Taiga
Sulfurous Rift - Here we go again, lots of cover inside where the fights happen
Vitric Forge - Inside the gates there is absolute LRM cover except for a few totally exposed places nobody would ever go

So with CW maps, the only time/place LRMs matter on 5/6 of the maps, you're already either winning so hard it doesn't matter what you brought or your losing so hard it doesn't matter what you brought.

One map. One single map. And even then you have to have enough LRMs to completely destroy an enemy mech in the duration of a UAV or it's kind of wasted. And that small window cost a team mate 40k cbills.

The biggest reason that LRMs are bad is because of ECM being unbalanced, but with ECM out of the picture (in those very rare occasions where you don't see the enemy clustered in the jesus box bubble) then bad performance usually means bad play (whether from your team or you or both) like...

Quote

Continue sitting in the back. firing LRMs that do nothing except sand blast the dirt off of enemy mechs, while your team is losing armor to 'hold locks', and relying on other people to spend cbills on UAVs, while taking no damage yourself.......right up until your team gets roflstomped because they didn't have another guy on the front lines and you fight them 1v12.

This. This is an example of bad LRM play where obviously LRMs are not going to be very effective...because you're playing badly. This is by no means the only or even close to the best way to play, so people that do this with LRMs are just bad with the exception of a designated LRM assault mech in a(n at least partially) coordinated team.