141 replies to this topic

[Malachy Karrde]

lordtzar, on 29 February 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

LRMS are dogshit. There's what like 2 maps in regular and one single map where they can do anything in CW.

Even if the enemy team has zero ecm and nobody has ams, most maps are chock full of cover from lrms. I mostly play CW now and these guys that bring a dropdeck full of LRMs is like having a permanently disconnected player on your team.

Boreal is the only map in cw that has any real potential for them, and that's only if a few conditions are met.

1. The enemy team needs to be light on ecm
2. The enemy team needs to be light on ams
3. You have to have a spotter/dedicated narc light
4. Your team has to have more than one lrm boat or #3 makes it so you have two wasted slots in your team instead of one

I've seen LRMs do really well on boreal but the team was made for it. They had a lot of lrms, some on dedicated boats, and most/all of the other mechs on the team went to the trouble of fitting some LRMs along with their other weapons. They had at least two narcing lights the entire match.

I've seen that one or maybe twice at most. Every other map has either lots of cover, or is nothing BUT cover from LRMS(grim portico).

So 6 maps in CW.........

Boreal Vault - Can do well with LRMS if your team is set up for it
Emerald Taiga - Plenty of cover inside gates. If the fight were outside the gates you're winning/losing pretty hard anyway
Grim Portico - hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha no
Hellbore Springs - Same deal as Emerald Taiga
Sulfurous Rift - Here we go again, lots of cover inside where the fights happen
Vitric Forge - Inside the gates there is absolute LRM cover except for a few totally exposed places nobody would ever go

So with CW maps, the only time/place LRMs matter on 5/6 of the maps, you're already either winning so hard it doesn't matter what you brought or your losing so hard it doesn't matter what you brought.

One map. One single map. And even then you have to have enough LRMs to completely destroy an enemy mech in the duration of a UAV or it's kind of wasted. And that small window cost a team mate 40k cbills.

Continue sitting in the back. firing LRMs that do nothing except sand blast the dirt off of enemy mechs, while your team is losing armor to 'hold locks', and relying on other people to spend cbills on UAVs, while taking no damage yourself.......right up until your team gets roflstomped because they didn't have another guy on the front lines and you fight them 1v12.

Emerald Taiga is pretty easy to use lrms inside the gates as the defender. If you know how to use them you can drop lrms pretty much anywhere in there. The attacker is screwed though because they can't get up high very easy.

[Pjwned]

Bilbo, on 29 February 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

The fellow is much more likely to come to the conclusion that he can't effectively use LRM's if he repeatedly does poorly with support than if he occasionally does poorly with none. I could be wrong of course.

I could be giving other people too much credit I suppose, but that's how I came to the conclusion that LRMs are bad, mostly because ECM is unbalanced.

It's a shame because I remember doing decently (though not particularly great either) with a LRM Shadowhawk and then a LRM Trebuchet quite a while ago, but then an assload of ECM mechs came out like the Arctic Cheetah, Hellbringer, a few extra ECM variants for other mechs and maybe something else, so when I tried some LRMs again with a similar build on my HBK-4J I was just inundated by ECM and couldn't do fuckall damage despite trying very hard to get my own locks in addition to utilizing teammates' locks; those were probably the worst matches I've ever had and LRMs are now permanently benched for me until ECM is adjusted.

Edited by Pjwned, 29 February 2016 - 06:02 PM.

[Khobai]

PGI doesnt seem to understand that hard countering weapon systems with equipment like ECM isnt good for the game. Game should have soft counters only.

[crustydog]

Every weapon in the game has pro's and cons. Every map in the game has a different environment, supportive of some weapons over others. When you acquire a lot of mechs, you have the luxury to customize your decks for different maps, and gain an additional advantage thereby.


LRM Boats, in the right place, and the right time, can be totally devastating, the inaccuracy of their damage not withstanding.

Indirect fire has a superior role in certain situations - which is why it is still used in warfare. Every weapon in the game is superior - in certain situations. No weapon is superior in all scenarios.


That said - Nice video Mundi. I like your videos, and I'm going to try out that Timby:)

[Gyrok]

Boogie138, on 29 February 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

You have a very one dimensional understanding of the game, which is fine. I really dont understand why you are salty over it though.
I

No, my understanding of this game is quite in depth, as a matter of fact.

I am not salty over LRMs. Not at all.

I am salty over people who keep taking LRMs and drag the team down. In YOLO queue, I get it...there are mostly derps in YOLO queue any way. In group queue...it is mind blowing. How can you agree to take a position as 1 of 12 mechs to do combat and carry your own weight, and bring a completely derp build with LRMs as a primary weapon system?

You should not talk to people you do not know in a condescending manner. Why are you so salty over the fact that LRMs are complete garbage? Why are you hurling veiled insults at people and make the assumption that they are a simpleton?

Maybe you should consider your own position...LRMs are garbage. Saying anything different is doing a disservice to people who might read this thread and think that the video is not valid because a bunch of derps are defending LRMs as a valid primary weapon system.

[Trauglodyte]

Gyrok, you're leaving out one very critical piece of information: Mundi's comment was that a mech that 100% boats LRMs is a detriment to his/her team. He is 100% true in that aspect because said mech driver isn't doing anything to enhance his/her own targeting capability and isn't helping to spread incoming damage while also doing nothing but spreading his/her own damage. BUT, the value of a single medium rack or two small racks is just as solid as any other ammo based weapon system in the game. No, LRMs will never be able to do pin point damage but they force players to duck or suffer the consequence. That, alone, gives your team an advantage in numbers or, if you'd rather look at it differently, provides your team with a force multiplier. It also provides very very slow mechs, such as the Highlander or Fatlas, with an approach weapon to utilize, if don't smartly, on brawl targets until said slowby can get into range. That LRMs are crutches for terrible players and/or new players shouldn't prevent them from being utilized.

[Novakaine]

Yeah LRM's just suck never use em


Oh by the way it was an Onion-VA

Edited by Novakaine, 29 February 2016 - 08:10 PM.

[Roadkill]

Novakaine, on 29 February 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

Yeah LRM's just suck never use em


Oh by the way it was an Onion-VA

Hey, I think I was in that match!

Gyrok is overstating the case, but he's mostly right. LRMs are sub-optimal weapons. And I use them frequently, and I think I use them pretty well.

Something has changed fairly recently that has made LRMs slightly better than they've been for a long time. They now feel like they can be reasonably useful in the Solo queue provided you know what you're doing and make the effort to work with your team. As the video that Gyrok provided points out, though, hiding behind hills and your teammates is depriving your team of your armor. You need to be with the rest of your team providing direct support and also absorbing some of the return fire from the enemy team.

If you play LRM mechs, don't be fooled by high damage numbers. It's pretty easy to do 500 damage in an LRM boat, but that's not the same as 500 damage in a laser vomit Mech. Again, the video demonstrates that LRMs need to do about 50% more damage than direct fire to destroy a Mech, so that 500 damage from LRMs only equates to about 330 damage from laser vomit. You need to be in the 700-800 range to really be doing well with LRMs.

So sure, LRMs can be fun and can be effective if used correctly. But seriously don't fool yourself into thinking that they're good weapons, because I'm willing to bet that every single person here has stats to prove it.

LRMs have ~40% accuracy. That means your LRM-15 is doing... 6 damage per shot, spread all over the target. That's not good, folks.

Yes, LRMs have their purpose. Yes, LRMs can be good in the right hands. But far too many people use them, use them badly, but think that they're doing just fine because they're scoring mid-pack with 300-400 damage. Sorry guys, but 300-400 damage is a pretty bad game in an LRM boat.

[Eider]

Flawed video, most people using lrms are safely tucked behind hills without return fire.

Here is the thing a lot of people forget about lrms, they are basicly free damage. With the right build it doesnt hurt you one bit to have lrms. You empty them out first then actually play the game. They are less effective in comp because everyone knows to have radar derp/ecm etc.

oh and to answer road kill, they lowered the range on ecm.

Edited by Eider, 29 February 2016 - 08:42 PM.

[Roadkill]

Eider, on 29 February 2016 - 08:40 PM, said:

oh and to answer road kill, they lowered the range on ecm.

Yeah, I know, but that doesn't feel like the difference to me. To me it feels more like a hit registration improvement - as if more of the missiles that hit are actually doing damage now. I know they were working on fixing SRMs, and I'm wondering if those changes also helped LRMs?

[Sable]

has anyone ever considered.... not boating LRMs? like just using them in tandem with other weapon systems? I run my timberwolf prime almost stock loadout. Drop the 20s to 15s, remove the machine guns and add more heat sinks and the thing is a fantastic all around mech that can support/suppress enemy mechs as well as have a nice laser alpha. Maybe instead of boating you should compare meta mechs vs mixed buildmechs.

[Gyrok]

Novakaine, on 29 February 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

Yeah LRM's just suck never use em


Oh by the way it was an Onion-VA

I could imagine that I could find about...oh...50-100 match screen shots between this and my old PC with direct fire weapons going over 1k damage...and there are probably at least a dozen over 1200-1300.

I probably even have some matches from derping in the solo queue with over 1k damage using LRMs in something like a 6 LRM5 MDD. (yes...I said solo/yolo queue)

Just because they do a lot of damage when you sit in the back and hide, and utilize other team mates targeting info for your own gain does not make them a good weapon system.

Quote

[color=#959595]Gyrok, you're leaving out one very critical piece of information: Mundi's comment was that a mech that 100% boats LRMs is a detriment to his/her team.

[/color]

[color=#959595]Mechs that bring LRMs do not bring a few with direct fire weapons though. They bring LRM40/50/60 whatever...seldom with a tag, and rarely with more than 2 MLs for actual weapons.[/color]

[Jman5]

Sable, on 29 February 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

has anyone ever considered.... not boating LRMs? like just using them in tandem with other weapon systems? I run my timberwolf prime almost stock loadout. Drop the 20s to 15s, remove the machine guns and add more heat sinks and the thing is a fantastic all around mech that can support/suppress enemy mechs as well as have a nice laser alpha. Maybe instead of boating you should compare meta mechs vs mixed buildmechs.

I used to run a Dakka + LRM build on my Direwolf S. It took some practice but it was really fun and surprisingly effective. The low speed of the direwolf means you spend a lot of time chugging forward without a direct line of sight. The LRMs allow you to contribute and the dakka turns up the heat once you get a clear line of sight. If you chain fire the LRMs it's a pretty cool build giving you good sustain. The LRMs really aren't as much of an investment as people think. The 3 LRM 10s take up less weight than just one of my UAC/10s.

[Lostdragon]

I don't play group queue but I can and do carry PUG games in an LRM 55 WHK. It has TAG, CAP, and 4 CERML. I routinely do over 1k damage and get 5+ KMDD.

I used to think LRMS were garbage even in the solo queue, but the recent ECM change has helped LRMs a lot and finding a mech that can do LRMs well along with a good bit of practice has changed my mind on that. They are perfectly viable in the solo queue and have wound up being more fun and requiring more skill than I thought before I spent some time using them.

[Novakaine]

Gyrok, on 29 February 2016 - 09:09 PM, said:

I could imagine that I could find about...oh...50-100 match screen shots between this and my old PC with direct fire weapons going over 1k damage...and there are probably at least a dozen over 1200-1300.

I probably even have some matches from derping in the solo queue with over 1k damage using LRMs in something like a 6 LRM5 MDD. (yes...I said solo/yolo queue)

Just because they do a lot of damage when you sit in the back and hide, and utilize other team mates targeting info for your own gain does not make them a good weapon system.

[/font][/color]

[color=#959595]Mechs that bring LRMs do not bring a few with direct fire weapons though. They bring LRM40/50/60 whatever...seldom with a tag, and rarely with more than 2 MLs for actual weapons.[/color]

#1 I never sit back and hide, because I don't depend on other people for locks.
#2 Never go full LRM because that's just stupid.
#3 That was Orion VA with just 4 Lrm/5's, 1 AC/5 and a ERLL.
#4 I stay with the brawl pack for protection.
#5 Lrm's are not bad weapons you just need to use them in combination with direct fire.
#6 Lock a target, lrm it and use direct fire at it or something near it - it can be done.
#7 Always bring tag.
#8 I'm a badass mofo lrm boat pilot

Edited by Novakaine, 29 February 2016 - 10:22 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Malachy Karrde, on 29 February 2016 - 05:50 PM, said:

Emerald Taiga is pretty easy to use lrms inside the gates as the defender. If you know how to use them you can drop lrms pretty much anywhere in there. The attacker is screwed though because they can't get up high very easy.

Yeah, pretty much everywhere. Except the green bits.

[Galenit]

Gyrok, on 29 February 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

To make my point...when someone comes in and announces they have LRMs, or they want/need locks....I do not lock a single target all match...and my clan mates will not either.

Gyrok, on 29 February 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

If they bring LRMs in the group queue...they are dead weight to be carried any way...why the hell should I encourage them to be dead weight any longer than they already have been?

I would allways take someone with lrms (not spamming at 900m) over you and your attitude.
At least they try to win and dont ditch a match like a little selfish brat.

Edited by Galenit, 01 March 2016 - 03:15 AM.

[Chados]

Gyrok, on 29 February 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

Maybe you should consider your own position...LRMs are garbage. Saying anything different is doing a disservice to people who might read this thread and think that the video is not valid because a bunch of derps are defending LRMs as a valid primary weapon system.

And yet, every Clan team in CW brings them by the bushel-basket full.

[DiGCliff]

to be fare fellas the best lrm mech has say four at the most back up medium lasers and is getting its own darn locks. not all or even most guys sit back you keep with the group help when you can and fire your support weapon at around 300 from the enemy.

[Damia Savon]

LRMs are deficient because of stupid, lame, whiney, wimps who cannot deal with them and want the game to be "left click..alpha.. I win". LRMs have been nerfed by PGI over and over again. Every time they get a little love, the try hard twits come here and sobs like little ******* and they get nerfed again.

No other weapon system in the game is so nerfed and has so many counters built into the game. Get rid of the fricken missile warning. Stop making ECM a hard counter. Toss Radar dep into the trash. Boost the speed up to 300 m/s and you will see how nasty lrms really can be, in both indirect fire and direct fire mode.

What is funny is idiots whine about the only team based weapon in a TEAM game. They ***** about the lack of tactics but keep trying to kill off the one weapon system, lrm artillary, that can force actual tactical decisions by denying easy travel in open areas and reaching areas that direct fire cannot reach.

I cannot wait for the Archer to show up and have the skies rain LRMs for a weekend just to see the salty tears flow from the idiots who stand in the open or who cannot run around with impunity.

Just stop with the "LRMs suck threads". They suck because morons have begged PGI into nerfing them and that is all. PGI should stop listening to the fricking cry babies and boost them to where they should be so they are even more deadly that they currently are.

Figure 11, on 29 February 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

Somebody got stalked by a light and pounded into the ground by LRMs before he could get a kill then?

Which is called "team work" in a team based game.