141 replies to this topic

[Scout Derek]

Some people need to relax, else the hammer that me and my friends wield, well, expect them to come towards you. (Relax, and talk like normal people would on a nice day instead of angrily because of disputes, it's getting to become tiresome)

[pattonesque]

Sader325, on 01 March 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

well my man the first video is an explanation of the mechanics of each weapons system and a pretty decent breakdown of why LRMs are less effective

your video is a good game with LRMs.

hoep this help's

[Musashi Alexander]

While I would agree that LRMs are often situational, aren't as consistent as direct fire loadouts and aren't seen much in competitive play, to combine statements about having multiple 1200-1300dmg games using LRM boats and LRMs are garbage weapons and players who use them are kicked from your group seems odd. You basically contradict yourself Gyrok.

I rarely use LRMs anymore but when I do I find they can be effective and fun. There are does and dont's but they can be effective. Personally I feel they're best as medium / fast heavy flankers with sufficient direct fire back up to keep off lights and close as required. It's a fun playstyle and usually benefits the team. It rarely gets you 1000 damage (like a heavy hitting LRM boat can on the right map or in the right situation) but it contributes reasonably well.

[Damia Savon]

pattonesque, on 01 March 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Then I'm disappointed you chose to be rude to me based on what you imagine folks other than me to be like.

Again I am sorry but when you have gone had to deal with this same frigging BS for 2.5 years it gets bloody old. The OP and others who deride LRMs as terribad forget it was their crying salty tears and begging on their knees for PGIs to nerf the evil LRMs that brought LRMs to this state. I find it horribly hypocritical to deride some that is a direct result of their lobbying.

Despite how far they have been nerfed, LRMS are still useful and deadly. They are not the equal of direct fire weapons but they were never intended to be. The fact that people still carry them just pisses the idiot OP and others off to no end and they will not rest until PGI removes them from the game entirely.

As for your suggestion, it just turns lrms into yet another direct fire weapon like *every other single weapon in this game.* I am fundamentally opposed to making everything just the same. That is just boring. The game needs more diverse weapons and uses, not less. Just because someone hates getting killed by lrms fired indirectly is no excuse for messing with lrms. That is a childish rant by immature brats.

MWO is supposed to be a team game. LRMs are the only weapon that can be used via teamwork. Why on Earth would any sane person want to ruin that? If anything PGI should boost the rewards for people locking targets, tagging, narcing, etc. Straight direct fire weapons just encourages single play, not team work.

Edited by Damia Savon, 01 March 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[process]

I really wish LRMs were more competitive on the solo scene. I want to want to use them on my Timberwolves. I occasionally have fun using them, but I always feel like I could be doing better with other loadouts.

I don't know what sort of balance they need in terms of stats, but mechanically I'd be interested to see something along these lines:

- Indirect target lock: LRMs behave as they do now.
- Line of sight, target lock: LRMs fire at a much lower angle, maybe 10-15 degrees.
- Line of sight, no lock: LRMs fire in a straight line to the target, without homing. No LRM incoming warning.

Edited by process, 01 March 2016 - 02:56 PM.

[Damia Savon]

Pjwned, on 01 March 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

LRMs already fly fast enough currently, and if you find that they miss too much then don't fire them from 800m away.



Direct fire by definition means needing to be exposed in order to have line of sight to fire at the enemy, which means you risk taking return fire, while indirect fire does not mean needing to be exposed which means you can easily fire at enemy at no risk to yourself.

There isn't a problem with playing well enough to not take return fire when you use direct fire weapons on an enemy, but there is a problem with firing at an enemy indirectly at no risk while they don't have any warning until they get blindsided by a huge missile salvo. Tying the missile warning to AMS is also crap and still makes LRMs too good in addition to making AMS too good.

LRMs are not fast enough. I rarely fire them at extreme range unless I know the target is out in open and cannot get to cover. Watching them crawl through the sky is very frustrating.

As for direct fire vs. indirect fire that is true, hypothetically. In practice we all know that is so much bullshite. A smart sniper is going to get at least one shot in on you before you realize you are targetted. Most likely he will get a second one in as you look around to see where you got shot from. Of course you might be lucky and be facing right at the sniper when they fire but more likely you won't. It is more likely that one of your team mates will see the sniper and shoot at him. Even if that happens, it doesn't take that long to duck behing a hill or into cover to protect yourself. Try doing that with direct fire lrms.

As for indirect lrms, you might not be able to see the mech firing the lrms but you can easily spot where they are coming from. It is really friggin obvious. So your team mates can easily head there to kill the boat or you can head there yourself.

What I don't understand is why people get so salty from taking indirect damage from a weapon they deride as worthless. Either lrms are dangerous or they are not. How they are fired really makes no difference. If LRMs are not going to hurt you that much then why do you care? It is rather hypocritical of folks.

It also makes me laugh that the OP and others who deride LRMS also resist any attempt to make them better. *shrugs* Hypocritical bs but what can you do.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Gyrok, on 01 March 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

You are slapping your own team's face...keep dragging them down...

gyrok i have read every post you made in this thread. and come to a most certain conclusion.

you are a scrub, a dirty unwashed peasant. one that cant handle it when "some scrubby new player" reaches out and touches you at 900m with lrms (something that i doubt a scrub could even accomplish, unless you are admitting that your that bad)

why? because are close minded and insist, absolutely, that any mech with any kind of LRM, or any load out that doesn't conform to your "vision" is a drag on their team. this notion is both inane and counter productive. you are neither a comp player nor would i believe you if you said you were.

I would grant you, in a game where everyone only thinks of themselves, offers no help to their team mates and otherwise are competing with their team rather then against the enemy, yes lrms are terrible.

in a team that has coord, narcs, uavs, tags, fielding a variety of mechs and is otherwise prepared to work together, lrms are the single most broken weapon in the game being able to effectively knock out the enemy before they even have a chance to shoot back.

maybe comp teams don't appreciate LRMS, maybe comp teams haven't figured out how to PROPERLY use them and are lazy just wanting "point and click adventures". does it matter? no because lrms are damn deadly when used with proper teamwork. and no one really gives a **** what comp players do so long as they dont spend their time farming new players and turning them away before they have a chance to get into the game.

yayaya most maps are terrible for LRMS, but as polar highlands has shown, when we finally get a PROPER map with little cover, that requires REAL thinking, teamwork and strategy to win, LRMS are downright overpowered and can easily be the single deciding factor on that map.

so i would say LRMS are only as good as the team that uses them, and the map they are played on. to which i would point the finger straight at PGI, who up until now has purposely made most maps wholly incompatible with LRMS. which besides ECM (and all the hard counters) is the biggest single reason LRMS blow chunks. they do not perform consitantly and are a map specific weapon (kinda like dual gauss on mordor)

many have pointed out, that while not optimal in all situations, lrms let back liners help focus fire opponents in situations where a wide firing line is not possible.

lrms help suppress enemies, even teir 1 comps will move back from incoming lrm fire to cover, this denies the enemy movement and flanking, which can allow your team to get the decided tactical advantage when it comes to outmaneuvering the enemy.

lrms allow you to change your support fire rapidly as long as you maintain a good position within the group, you can easily support both the flanks while holding the center.

lrms with teamwork, are downright broken on polar.
proof.




mech used.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bf5fdc6b4ee219c

because if i cant tank for the team, i will be certain to put out enough firepower to compensate.

plx read the comment in the screeny, because apparently despite doing almost twice the damage of the next highest player, and more damage then a whole lance of the enemy team combined, pilots still refuse to admit that LRMS can be useful. this is how entrenched this mindset has become, for whatever reason.

but plx do look at that players score, even compared to the others in my team. that alone should tell you the skill level of those that think "lrms are a drag on the team".

but its a bad mindset, you dont like lrms? fine then offer a solution, but proceeding to bash everyone, and anyone that uses them is counterproductive and frankly only makes you look like you have an agenda or a bias that you simply cannot let go.

but do tell me gyrok, please tell me that i was a drag to my team and contributed nothing to their victory.

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 01 March 2016 - 03:23 PM.

[Kristian Radoulov]

I really don't want to comment on this thread given how nasty it has become, but I will say this much for anyone that is interested in playing LRM boats: you must bring your own tag and aim to be no more than 300-400m away from your targets. It is also a must that you have some sort of back up weapon to defend yourself against lights. Good hunting.

Edited by Kristian Radoulov, 01 March 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[SQW]

Once people start realizing Narc is such a powerful tool, LRMs will start appearing more.

I LOVE running my RVN-3L and on half of the maps, it's a game winner.

Had a game 2 nights ago on Canyon. A Maddog, Catapult and I took down a Timberwolf, Kingcrab and a Commando under 30sec each for only a few light grazes on my mech. Tag a mech in the open, call out in voip for concentrated fire and boom! I don't even need to mention Polar or Caustic right? Amazingly, this sort of things happens as often as not on pub queue in the lower tier - makes games far more enjoyable than the CT alpha races that is CW atm.

LRM is TEAM WORK. Pure and simple. Gunho rambos love their lasers because it's all about individual glories and those ppl wouldn't go anywhere near a weapon that wouldn't give them killing blows let along support weapons like Narc or Tag. Ever seen an ECM Cheetah spotting for LRMs and hiding for as long as possible by NOT shooting and giving away his position?
So by all means, use LRMs. Boat them even. But do realize shooting LRMs 'safe' 900m away without LOS is usually a terrible way to use that weapon. Pray for a Narc team mate but bring along your own tag laser. Be bold, move up with the front and use your indirect fire advantage to focus down on enemies while glory hounds are jostling to get into a proper fire line. Not surprisingly, these exact same individuals consider LRM to be noob weapons because they can't shoot back with their 50pt alpha while being pinned away.

[C E Dwyer]

If LRM's are so bad, why is it the meta boys get so abusive and cry when they get *** handed to them by Lurms, or even hit by them.

Also why is any attempt to make them better resisted by the same people if they are so bad ?

Edited by Cathy, 01 March 2016 - 04:09 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Gyrok, on 01 March 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

I did not need to read your post to know you are a scrub. Because I am apparently psychic like that...




You did not help the team...your team would obviously have rolled the opposition anyway...with or without the LRM boat being present.

That is what you are all not hearing.

You can do 1500 damage with LRMs and you are not doing much for your team besides just spraying damage...

Your argument is essentially this:

"I can shoot this deer with 253,491 paint balls to kill it...look at all those paint balls!"

My argument is essentially this:

"Why the **** would you even shoot a deer with paint balls? Use a real bullet"

so are you this disengaged from reality even in RL?

and no they would have not rolled the enemy team regardless, because I got those 3 kills first and put 2 assaults and 1 heavy OUT OF THE GAME for my team before the skirmish even started.

really gyrok is your head stuck so far up your @!# that you cannot see what is plainly in front of you?

is not the 1000+ paintballs better then a real bullet if they are used in such a way that the person with the bullet cannot return fire? is that not playing a mech to ones strength?

Cathy, on 01 March 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

If LRM's are so bad, why is it the meta boys get so abusive and cry when they get *** handed to them by Lurms, or even hit by them.

Also why is any attempt to make them better resisted by the same people if they are so bad ?

because a great many players simply want COD/CS "point and click adventures" and any kind of indirect fire, or any weapon that doesn't conform to this idiom is regarded as "cowardly" or "not contributing to the team". really its either just plain trolling or a refusal to accept reality.

also its a refusal to accept any weapon that requires teamwork over the individual effort. which is what i thought real comp players were all about TEAMWORK.

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 01 March 2016 - 04:20 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Again, Gyrok, I'm not disagreeing with you. What you're saying, what I'm saying, and what Mundi said in the film is that players that take 100% LRM builds are bad for the team. All three of us agree plus several people in this topic. What I'm saying and what Mundi essentially left out is that using LRMs in conjunction with other weapons is NOT a bad idea. If you can trust your teammates, which you should 100% be able to do in both comp play and full unit CW, using LRMs as you approach an area where you don't have direct LOS is not only free damage but incredibly WANTED damage. LRMs should never be thought of as "finisher weapons" but rather "beginning weapons". Artillery and air-to-ground munitions don't win wars; grunts win wars. BUT, said artillery and air-to-ground munitions do a Hell of a job softening up a target, denying positions to the enemy, and, at times, actually killing the enemy. The Romans didn't use the pilum - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilum - as their primary weapons as that was the gladius. Instead, the Romans used the pilum as a first strike weapon from range as a means of 1) intimidating the enemy and 2) thinning out the enemy ranks. LRMs serve the same purpose. If you're dumb enough to think that you can cruise around MWO with nothing but LRMs, you're a raving lunatic, a massive idiot, and essentially the ******* on your team. This game is essentially a bunch of tools in the toolbox - use the right one for the right situation and you will go far. But, it is ignorant to think that they're 100% completely useless.

PS> If you don't have a 50% or greater hit rate with LRMs, you are using them completely wrong and, chances are, you're one of those people being discussed in this thread.

[Novakaine]

Malachy Karrde, on 01 March 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

First of all, I actually have killed you two or three times, I may even have a screenshot sitting around somewhere. Second of all, if you don't want to be insulted, don't insult others. I have the utmost contempt for my "audience." The entire position of the meta crowd is insulting to every single player of this game. As to face time? Heh my dire wolf needs about 2 seconds of face time to plant anything but a ultralight mech, and less for those if I don't miss. The only mech I need more facetime against is an atlas... and those are usually pretty easy to core too but I'll take more damage. The funny thing is, they approach so slow my indirect fire has them down 25 percent or so before they even get in range... wonder how I do that...oh that's right lrms. And airstrikes? Give me a break one they barely ever hit... it's way too easy to get out of the way...and 2 they cost cbills..lrms are free and take up maybe 8 tons max, while doing a hell of a lot more spread damage (I don't play inner sphere much, inner sphere lrms are quite inferior to clan). So yes, consider this a slap across the face of every moron who follows meta. I will hunt you and kill you where I find you. With my balanced load out mechs [mix of lasers, uac, and missiles of all persuasions].

Yep and that's why I love Alpine Peaks.
I love to flank around on the valley road while the enemy mechs hung the rim to avoid direct fire.
And just lurm away until I sucker somebody to come down and get me.
Then just start retrograding with you guessed it a balanced build.
By the time they get within 300m they are dead, sometimes I can even get help in bushwhacking them.
And here's a prime example below in this case a Hunchback J.
Not a single soul bothered to turn and fire on me for most of the match.
By the end of the match a Raven and Centurion decided to come at me.
Those were last two kills, they were just two banged up to take me.
I was just meant to be a distraction to help pull some off Candy Mountain to ease my teams assault up it.
But because they just totally ignored the lurm boat they got wiped out.
High damage nope, High kill count yes.
Graciously granted my team did all the hard work, but if you're driving a support mech then you do just that.
Respect that lurm boat, because it might just be myself and a few others getting you the win.

[Ghogiel]

Novakaine, on 01 March 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

Yep and that's why I love Alpine Peaks.
I love to flank around on the valley road while the enemy mechs hung the rim to avoid direct fire.
And just lurm away until I sucker somebody to come down and get me.
Then just start retrograding with you guessed it a balanced build.
By the time they get within 300m they are dead, sometimes I can even get help in bushwhacking them.
And here's a prime example below in this case a Hunchback J.
Not a single soul bothered to turn and fire on me for most of the match.
By the end of the match a Raven and Centurion decided to come at me.
Those were last two kills, they were just two banged up to take me.
I was just meant to be a distraction to help pull some off Candy Mountain to ease my teams assault up it.
But because they just totally ignored the lurm boat they got wiped out.
High damage nope, High kill count yes.
Graciously granted my team did all the hard work, but if you're driving a support mech then you do just that.
Respect that lurm boat, because it might just be myself and a few others getting you the win.

Well the other team had 3 potato legion. Well done farming T4 players I guess, high five?

[Gyrok]

I know we were on the same page about the first part, mostly...

This I wanted to address...

Trauglodyte, on 01 March 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

PS> If you don't have a 50% or greater hit rate with LRMs, you are using them completely wrong and, chances are, you're one of those people being discussed in this thread.

The biggest issue with LRMs, is having a 50+% hit rate requires face time to see the target. That is a good thing if you are actively doing it.

However...

If you are giving your enemy face time, you may as well be shooting lasers, gauss, ppcs, ballistics, whatever...with significantly faster travel time, and much less spread.

Now for Mr. Ad Hominem himself:

Col Jaime Wolf, on 01 March 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

so are you this disengaged from reality even in RL?

and no they would have not rolled the enemy team regardless, because I got those 3 kills first and put 2 assaults and 1 heavy OUT OF THE GAME for my team before the skirmish even started.

Someone had to be staring at those mechs for you to drop them...just saying.

Quote

really gyrok is your head stuck so far up your @!# that you cannot see what is plainly in front of you?

The irony is, I was wondering this about you...

Quote

is not the 1000+ paintballs better then a real bullet if they are used in such a way that the person with the bullet cannot return fire? is that not playing a mech to ones strength?

No...actually. The best way to kill something is quick, and clean. If it takes you 5 minutes to kill something, it will shoot back at least once, with probability of hitting *something*. Meanwhile, if you poke, shoot, poke, shoot, kill...and trade well...you are not taking any damage, or taking minimal damage. Which is the same case as your LRM example in 20% of the time frame.

Edited by Gyrok, 01 March 2016 - 05:09 PM.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Oh for gods sake Gyrok, its pretty clear that you simly refuse to string together 1 and 2 now - LRM DOES NOT REQUIRE FACE TIME

Either you want to have a reasonable discussion, or you just want to spill your anger in a heated factless and hate filled argument - im leaning towards the latter, because facts seem to go out the window with you

can we please get back to the actual "discussion" now and drop the "argument"?

Edit because your edit:
dude, your scouts suck

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 01 March 2016 - 05:15 PM.

[Gyrok]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 01 March 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

Either you want to have a reasonable discussion, or you just want to spill your anger in a heated factless and hate filled argument - im leaning towards the latter, because facts seem to go out the window with you

Show me facts...

Not screenshots from people playing LRMs, not anecdotal evidence submitted in story form.

Show me facts that can even get LRMs into a "competitive" place with direct fire...and I will reconsider. At this time...there are none, and you cannot provide any because there are none to be had.

While staring at a mech:

Direct Fire > LRMs

For indirect fire:

Strikes > LRMs

What are you missing? The video has all the evidence showing the proof, the onus is on you to provide information to the contrary.

Edited by Gyrok, 01 March 2016 - 05:33 PM.

[Dracol]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 01 March 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

Oh for gods sake Gyrok, its pretty clear that you simly refuse to string together 1 and 2 now - LRM DOES NOT REQUIRE FACE TIME

At this point in time, y'all have painted Gyrok into a corner and he's a scared badger lashing out at anything that comes into reach.

He's trying to maintain some shred of respect. Granted, he lost it all when CW started, but we all can tell he's delusional from the posts he makes. However, if he were to relent from his initial position, then his clearly stated actions of acting against LRM users who drop with him would become Asshatery, instead of the lofty actions of a teacher that he has portrayed em as.

So, in order to remain a teacher instead of a asshatery acting numbskull, he must defend his initial position with any weak, flimsy, or even down right inaccurate remarks that float to the surface of his tar filled mind.

TL:DR for Gyroks: You poorly defend your case because you want to be seen as a teacher, not as an ******.

Edited by Dracol, 01 March 2016 - 05:36 PM.

[Novakaine]

Ghogiel, on 01 March 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

Well the other team had 3 potato legion. Well done farming T4 players I guess, high five?

Naw but this was mid last year so who's to say.

[adamts01]

LRMs are weaker than direct fire, but this video was bad. He mentioned how the mechs he was LRMing weren't torso twisting or moving, fair enough. But then he took his sweet time lining up a shot on the same mechs...... nothing but core....headshot, "you can't do that with LRMs." You can't do that to a mech that's moving and torso twisting either.....

There are big changes in the works, all this should really wait till after those changes settle in. No ghost heat! Having to chip away at targets instead of 1 shotting mechs! Who knows, maybe next month a Timby with 2xLRM15s and some lasers won't be laughed off the field. I'm going to continue my break from MWO for a while longer, not a year this time, but a few more months. But for the first time since they said they were introducing info warfare I'm excited, hopefully this time I'm not let down again.