123 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 01 March 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

You have no idea what you're talking about.

On no, I know it very well. Even way too well. Cuz elitism - is one of the things, that killed Wow. You know "6600GS, link achieve, will check your armory, one talent point difference from cookie-cutter build from guide, one wrong item, one wrong gem/chant, dps, that 0.0000001% lower, than standard, one mistake - instant kick" kind of stuff.

Edited by MrMadguy, 01 March 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

MrMadguy, on 01 March 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

On no, I know it very well. Even way too well. Cuz elitism - is one of the things, that killed Wow. You know "6600GS, link achieve, will check your armory, one talent point difference from cookie-cutter build from guide, one wrong item, one wrong gem/chant, dps, that 0.0000001% lower, than standard, one mistake - instant kick" kind of stuff.

Thank you for trying to make an example of something without explaining its context.

I'd like a full list of games that have outright "failed" because the devs "catered" to the competetive community.

Also the last time I checked, WoW was failing because its failure to adapt to its competition.

[PEEFsmash]

Before you think Tarogato and I have had some complex interactions in which I have caused him great pain and suffering, I have no idea who he is and have never spoken (or written or typed) a word to him in my life. TBH, if you don't want to feed my ego, why are you mentioning me to the point that random ppl are linking me posts?

I think it is for some reason sexy to pretend like I'm some embodiment of "old Lords" or something in attitude. Fun fact: I've never said "ggclose" in a game in my life. I thought it was distasteful and I tried to get them to quit it. The only things I say in match are "glhf" at the beginning of every game, and "gg" at the end of every game win or lose. People who actually play in my matches all know this. I'll say hi back to anyone who says hi to me. I focus on trying to promote a better, more high-quality competitive side of MWO.

Which brings me to elitism. Yes, I probably fit some people's definition of an elitist, especially when "elitist" is dilluted down to the rather tame definition of, "someone who thinks a game should be balanced at the top competitive level instead of the low or mid level where highly inconsistent play and egregious mistakes dictate match results." Yes, I said that low and mid level players almost never win or lose due to weapon or mech or gamemode balance, but instead win or lose due to their own mistakes, inconsistencies, or lack of FPS skills. It might not be the nicest-sounding thing to say, but does anyone actually disagree? If you do disagree, let's have a discussion about it. I'm not your comic book villian, and everyone who actually talks to me knows this, even those very close friends of mine from opposing teams in direct competition with me. Lower and mid level players who take the time to reach out to me also know this, as I answer all of their questions, help them through improvement, etc (which, btw, I encourage anyone reading this to ask me questions if you have any). I share many of my discoveries with the community, such as the Targeting Computer crit bug, for the benefit of everyone else. I could have kept that to myself and enjoyed my small advantage.

People like Tarogato, again a person who has never interacted with me and whom I would have never known existed, are just following in a long line of people who parrot what the last Tarogato-style-parrot parroted to them. As much as I wish I could be the epic troll villian that you seek, I have to concede that title to Villz who is quite deserving in this achievement (and whose attitude is so at odds with mine that he was a central reason behind my quitting 2 years ago).

Now to the topic, if anyone has any questions to ask to someone so frequently defined as an elitist, I'm ready to answer (though the answer you get might not be as evil as you expected!)

Edited by PEEFsmash, 01 March 2016 - 02:13 PM.

[Asrrin]

MrMadguy, on 01 March 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

On no, I know it very well. Even way too well. Cuz elitism - is one of the things, that killed Wow. You know "6600GS, link achieve, will check your armory, one talent point difference from cookie-cutter build from guide, one wrong item, one wrong gem/chant, dps, that 0.0000001% lower, than standard, one mistake - instant kick" kind of stuff.

If you think comp players in MWO are actually like this, you are hopelessly mistaken. There is a difference between "don't bring mixed loadouts, don't bring lurms" and "omg you scrublord you are running 9 back armor instead of 8!!!" At the highest tiers there is extensive testing of loadouts done, but within a range of competitiveness based on meta.

In all my time doing tournaments and comp, the only time I was ever told what exact build to bring down to armor levels was in a small time unit that instituted this rule because they didn't have enough good players to figure out their own loadouts, and had to hold the hands of all the new players.

Most of the times, when new players ask about builds from comp tier players, they are directed to metamechs or something similar, and told to follow the build until they get a handle on the nuances of the game enough to experiment. There is nothing wrong with this. It's advice, not shove it down your throat threats like you imply.

PEEFsmash, on 01 March 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

Which brings me to elitism. Yes, I probably fit some people's definition of an elitist, especially when "elitist" is dilluted down to the meaningless definition of, "someone who thinks a game should be balanced at the top competitive level instead of the low or mid level where highly inconsistent play and egregious mistakes dictate match results." Yes, I said that low and mid level players almost never win or lose due to weapon or mech or gamemode balance, but instead win or lose due to their own mistakes, inconsistencies, or lack of FPS skills...

I cannot agree with this post more. 100% spot on.

[MrMadguy]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 01 March 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Thank you for trying to make an example of something without explaining its context.

I'd like a full list of games that have outright "failed" because the devs "catered" to the competetive community.

Also the last time I checked, WoW was failing because its failure to adapt to its competition.

Every game, where devs care about 1% of playerbase too much - is doomed to fail. And devs don't even need to cater to them, like nerf LFR rewards, cuz they wanted raid rewards to be exclusive to them only. Devs may do the opposite thing - dumb the game down in order to remove any room for error, so elite will naturally disappear. For example remove talent system and replace in with perk one, where you choose between "passive speed small increase", "short cd medium speed increase" and "long cd big speed increase", that doesn't mean anything - you just pick passive one and forget about it forever. Or simply remove all gems and chants from the game, so players without them won't be considered scrub. Or prune all abilities, so player will be left with 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 kind of rotation, he can't make any mistakes in.

All you need - is to: 1) Separate ordinal players from elitists, so they won't interact with each other and therefore ordinal players won't depend on elitist somehow. 2) Ignore elitists and their demands to force other players "to be more competitive", i.e. to allow them to be able to "confirm" their elite status via humiliating other players.

Asrrin, on 01 March 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

If you think comp players in MWO are actually like this, you are hopelessly mistaken. There is a difference between "don't bring mixed loadouts, don't bring lurms" and "omg you scrublord you are running 9 back armor instead of 8!!!" At the highest tiers there is extensive testing of loadouts done, but within a range of competitiveness based on meta.

"Don't bring lurms" - is exactly the same thing. LRMs aren't actually that bad, that every player, who use them, should be stigmatized as underhive. Every elitism begins as some good thing. For example, as guide for newbies. Some skilled player becomes tired of questions like "what build should I use" and decides to write a guide, he will be able to simply link to every player, who asks. He uses some math and theorycraft there in order to justify his suggestions. It's only suggestions, but some players start to treat them as canons. The difference between builds - may be just 1% there. But at first players start to brainlessly copy-paste "best" cookie-cutter builds and then they start to stigmatize all player, who don't do it, as underhive, and tell them, that "if they can't even read guide - then they don't deserve playing this game".

Edited by MrMadguy, 01 March 2016 - 01:27 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

Sadly true. So let's stop trying to force the underhive and "pugs just wanna have fun" to conform to tryhard standards, and actually force in the competition queues and modes that the Comps claim to want.

Here's the thing though. Are they ready for the long wait times? Without PSR concerns that should remove some of it, but let's face it, the comp bucket will be a heck of a lot smaller. But that might just be the price you pay for a non premium comp mode.

I'm sure other things city's streamline out more, too.

But folk gotta realise that the Quickplay queue, it's the public swimming pool. If you are upset that the plebs are playing Marco polo when you are trying to train for your Olympic heats.... Go get in the private pool like the real pros do. But stop insisting that everyone else needs to stop playing marco polo.

Ya din?

That's a fair assessment and perfectly valid reason, but the same courtesy needs to be extended both ways.

It's not fun doing speed drills at the range for an upcoming competition only to have Jimmy McHunterton to show up and demand I slow down my shooting tempo while he spends the next four hours zeroing his deer rifle.

The problem right now is there is no private pool for Michael Phelps to avoid the Wilson kids playing Marco Polo and there isn't another range Jerry Mikuleck to shoot away from Jimmy McHunterton.

CW was SUPPOSED to be that, but that plan got shat all over by the All Inclusive Crowd (unless you're a dirty, nasty comp, then you can go get ******).

But I digress, I've given up trying to have two separate pools so I'm just here to shoot robutt at this point.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 01 March 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

I will bite here.

Maybe in the #YOLO queue...that stuff flies

In the group queue, when people are on comms trying to play to win...if you join a group, and do not put on your tryhard hat...you can absolutely expect many will call you out on it. It is a part of life. The higher you get in tier, the less forgiving the group queue becomes. It simply is what it is...if you end up with T1 & T2 players on your team...you need to bring your "A" game.

Did I mention Group queue somewhere?

Oh. Ok then.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

Did I mention Group queue somewhere?

Oh. Ok then.

I am talking about group queue players...the bad builds you see in the yolo queue make it into the group queue too...

[Bishop Steiner]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 01 March 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

That's a fair assessment and perfectly valid reason, but the same courtesy needs to be extended both ways.

It's not fun doing speed drills at the range for an upcoming competition only to have Jimmy McHunterton to show up and demand I slow down my shooting tempo while he spends the next four hours zeroing his deer rifle.

The problem right now is there is no private pool for Michael Phelps to avoid the Wilson kids playing Marco Polo and there isn't another range Jerry Mikuleck to shoot away from Jimmy McHunterton.

CW was SUPPOSED to be that, but that plan got shat all over by the All Inclusive Crowd (unless you're a dirty, nasty comp, then you can go get ******).

But I digress, I've given up trying to have two separate pools so I'm just here to shoot robutt at this point.

I fully agree. If you play CW or Group Queue, yes. You sign up for it.

Casual play IS casual. You play there, you also are tacitly agreeing to DEAL WITH IT.

potatoes have Judd at add much right to play this game as anyone else.

[pwnface]

PEEFsmash, on 01 March 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

People like Tarogato, again a person who has never interacted with me and whom I would have never known existed, are just following in a long line of people who parrot what the last Tarogato-style-parrot parroted to them. As much as I wish I could be the epic troll villian that you seek, I have to concede that title to Villz who is quite deserving in this achievement (and whose attitude is so at odds with mine that he was a central reason behind my quitting 2 years ago).

If there was ever a super-villain in MWO it was Villz.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

MrMadguy, on 01 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Every game, where devs care about 1% of playerbase too much - is doomed to fail. And devs don't even need to cater to them, like nerf LFR rewards, cuz they wanted raid rewards to be exclusive to them only. Devs may do the opposite thing - dumb the game down in order to remove any room for error, so elite will naturally disappear. For example remove talent system and replace in with perk one, where you choose between "passive speed small increase", "short cd medium speed increase" and "long cd big speed increase", that doesn't mean anything - you just pick passive one and forget about it forever. Or simply remove all gems and chants from the game, so players without them won't be considered scrub. Or prune all abilities, so player will be left with 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 kind of rotation, he can't make any mistakes in.

All you need - is to: 1) Separate ordinal players from elitists, so they won't interact with each other and therefore ordinal players won't depend on elitist somehow. 2) Ignore elitists and their demands to force other players "to be more competitive".


"Don't bring lurms" - is exactly the same thing. LRMs aren't actually that bad, that every player, who use them, should be stigmatized as underhive. Every elitism begins as some good thing. For example, as guide for newbies. Some skilled player becomes tired of questions like "what build should I use" and decides to write a guide, he will be able to simply link to every player, who asks. He uses some math and theorycraft there in order to justify his suggestions. The difference between builds - may be just 1% there. But first players start to brainlessly copy-paste "best" cookie-cutter builds and then they start to stigmatize all player, who don't do it, as underhive, and tell them, that "if they can't even read guide - then they don't deserve playing this game".

I'm still waiting on that list.

[Asrrin]

MrMadguy, on 01 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

"Don't bring lurms" - is exactly the same thing. LRMs aren't actually that bad, that every player, who use them, should be stigmatized as underhive. Every elitism begins as some good thing. For example, as guide for newbies. Some skilled player becomes tired of questions like "what build should I use" and decides to write a guide, he will be able to simply link to every player, who asks. He uses some math and theorycraft there in order to justify his suggestions. The difference between builds - may be just 1% there. But first players start to brainlessly copy-paste "best" cookie-cutter builds and then they start to stigmatize all player, who don't do it, as underhive, and tell them, that "if they can't even read guide - then they don't deserve playing this game".

Yes, lurms are really just that bad. They have a small niche in a fraction of maps where they are slightly more than sub par, but need both a willing team with support equipment and an enemy without hard counters, they are functionally worthless. Full stop, will not continue to debate this.

And as for the rest of your quote, I see nothing here about comp players. I see you complaining about mindless people who are not comp players who berate other non-comp players. What point does this prove exactly? The topic of this thread is "Why do people pay attention to comp players" and I, along with several other people" have explained why, and you are complaining about something else entirely.

[MrMadguy]

Asrrin, on 01 March 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

Yes, lurms are really just that bad. They have a small niche in a fraction of maps where they are slightly more than sub par, but need both a willing team with support equipment and an enemy without hard counters, they are functionally worthless. Full stop, will not continue to debate this.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Asrrin, on 01 March 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

And as for the rest of your quote, I see nothing here about comp players. I see you complaining about mindless people who are not comp players who berate other non-comp players. What point does this prove exactly? The topic of this thread is "Why do people pay attention to comp players" and I, along with several other people" have explained why, and you are complaining about something else entirely.

It's 1am here and I'm too tired to explain something, cuz Internet wars are pointless - nobody will admit, that their opinion is faulty anyway. All I want to say - is that it's all about elitism. Some (let's call them that way) half-comp players (they're not top ones, but still do some comp content, like raids and rbgs) start to care about top players too much. They are like kids, who take adults as an example. They want to be like top players - they want to be "elite". So they start to reject other players according to some silly attribute, that has nothing to do with real performance. Some kind of virtual "racism". "Lurms" - is great example of this attribute.

Edited by MrMadguy, 01 March 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[Aresye]

MrMadguy, on 01 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

It's 1am here and I'm too tired to explain something, cuz Internet wars are pointless - nobody will admit, that their opinion is faulty anyway. All I want to say - is that it's all about elitism. Some (let's call them that way) half-comp players (they're not top ones, but still do some comp content, like raids and rbgs) start to care about top players too much. They are like kids, who take adults as an example. They want to be like top players - they want to be "elite". So they start to reject other players according to some silly attribute, that has nothing to do with real performance. Some kind of virtual "racism". "Lurms" - is great example of this attribute.

How those players could even be confused for comp players is beyond me, considering they usually end up being the laughing stock of both the competitive and casual player base.

It's not like this is a gigantic community. I could name at least 5-10 players that I could say with confidence will NEVER see themselves on any of the top competitive teams. Not because they aren't good, but because their attitude and sportsmanship is piss poor.

[Khereg]

The Casuals against the Tryhards. I love this part.

[M T]

Actually the neckbeards account for 95% of the voices.

[Deathlike]

If you are overly concerned about the comp player, then your priorities are messed up.

In any drop, I'd like to think there are people that aren't chasing the squirrels, and would stop doing it when told to... but that rarely works out.

It's one thing to ignore people that you don't wish to listen to. That's fine. You can choose to listen to anyone you wish to listen to.


Just understand that not all comp players are the same. There will always be a vocal few, but for the most part they want to win, want to get better, and want everyone to succeed as much as possible.

You can feel free to choose how you build your mechs and how you want to play... but if you are the same guy complaining about losing when you may be in part responsible for the loss... when, maybe it's just you. You can't be the one complaining while ignoring what others are telling you "this is bad".


Blaming everyone for the errors of the vocal few is wrong and frankly if there were as many comp players as you'd think there was (they are already a minority), well, maybe you aren't capable of treating people like people.

[SQW]

You'd think for a mode purported to be all about elite team work, the map design, the choke points and limited maneuver areas all points to individual heroic and brute force fire power. It's like they aren't even try to hide their pandering to the big egos who spends hundreds on the game but in return, demand positive K/D and Win/Loss ratio.

LRM/NARC/TAG are the only holy trinity of teamwork tools in MWO. Guess which weapons get used the least in CW? PGI purposely made the walls at the base so high that LRMs can't hit approaching mechs beyond the gate, even though obstacles 1/3 as high are equally effective at funneling, and forces engagement at 400m for the benefit of power gamers.

[Hit the Deck]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

And sorry but overweight middle aged guys got no business riding around in spandex trying to look Tour de France. If you are in an actual race, our a legit cyclist I training great. But for all this Tour De Hometown Buffet riders?. Put some normal shorts over that spandex. You'll still be chafe free, and I won't throw up I my mouth.

Ok.... Nothing to do with comp. Just one of many pet peeves. It's like seeing posers with racing cages in their civics, despite knowing the dude is a buster who doesn't race.

That said, I don't often see your average competitive cyclist riding around the local park, scornfully telling everyone else what to ride, and to get out of their park if they don't/won't /,can't, ya dig?

Well, tight fitting attire is what you wear when you cycle on the roads with intensity which may not look good on some kind of people but they at least took cycling.

In analogy to that, any people who play MWO is good for the game. Some people may be pretentious but that's how it is. I think the number of negative people I met in game is very low.

[adamts01]

MrMadguy, on 01 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

It's 1am here and I'm too tired to explain something, cuz Internet wars are pointless - nobody will admit, that their opinion is faulty anyway.

Look in the mirror. You're about as stubborn as they get.