123 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

That's why features, like high quality LFD, LFR, random BGs, pug queue, etc. - are mandatory for every game. Some gamedevs try to force social obligations on players via intentionally turning this features into complete garbage. I.e. they have the following logic. There 4 levels of quality in such a games: 1) Pug queue - complete garbage, where other players are allowed to grief you, how they like, cuz there are 0 punishing mechanisms there. 2) Premades - you have to interact with elitists, who treat you the same way, as master treats his personal slaves. 3) Guild - you're treated the same way, as boss treats his employees or as commander treats his soldiers. Schedule, discipline, calls in the middle of the night (cuz they need healer NOW) , no personal life, threats, that you may be fired at any moment. 4) Playing with friends - only viable option. Don't have friends to play with? Find some and BRING THEM INTO OUR GAME! So, if you respect yourself and don't want to be scoffed - you have to pick 4rd way. That's, what I call network marketing.

And such scheme simply drives casual players away. They just can't find a place for them in such a game. And they are usually 90% of playerbase - and also most profitable one. Cuz they don't need much content, but pay the same price, as others. Driving them away - is pure suicide for every game. But they are not bad players, as elitists usually try to treat them. Dumbing down the game to remove any room for error, so elite will naturally disappear - isn't viable solution. It makes game boring and uninteresting.

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 March 2016 - 03:13 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

MrMadguy, on 01 March 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

All you need to prove elitism theory - is to compare forum stats with real ingame ones. You will see enormous bias. For example, if you'll look at some poll at MMOChampion, you'll see, that 90% of players are against LFR or want Cata's hard 5ppls back. But in reality raiders and hardcores - are just 10% of playerbase. Cata's 4.0 patch fail - is the best proof of that fact (game catered to raider and was losing one player every 4 seconds, lol). And only tiny minority of them are in principle enough to hate LFR and hardcore enough to love hard 5ppls - about 1% of hardcore raiders.

Same here. You see "Tier 1" tags to the left of half of posts in this thread and all people, who don't have them - are considered "3rd grade people". But the sad truth is in fact, that Tier 1 players - are just tiny vocal minority. And this is the biggest mistake of all gamedevs - to cater to forum vocal minority. To players, like this, who demands making game accessible only for 1% of hardcore players, cuz it would be literally nothing to do for casual player there (and new games, like Wildstar, that tried to cater to Vanilla/BC fanboy crowd and failed - are the best proof of this fact), but don't understand, that 1% won't be able to pay for their content by themselves - it's dirty casuals, how are paying for their content and making it worth developers' resources:

Did cata/ mop not cater to the casual crowd much more? The game got massively dumbed down as I remember. I was part of a raid group that fielded two 25 man's and two 10 man's. After the dumbing down, they ALL QUIT. Nearly every wow player I know that hadxquit, quit because it became too casual-there is a fine line mate where a game gets too faceroll.
Current wow is only about PvP for me, as I feel there isn't much for me,my fun went at the end of TBC honestly.

I do not want a swtor level of casual here. But that seems to be what some want....

[MrMadguy]

Jon Gotham, on 02 March 2016 - 03:52 AM, said:

Did cata/ mop not cater to the casual crowd much more? The game got massively dumbed down as I remember. I was part of a raid group that fielded two 25 man's and two 10 man's. After the dumbing down, they ALL QUIT. Nearly every wow player I know that hadxquit, quit because it became too casual-there is a fine line mate where a game gets too faceroll.
Current wow is only about PvP for me, as I feel there isn't much for me,my fun went at the end of TBC honestly.

I do not want a swtor level of casual here. But that seems to be what some want....

No. 4.0-4.2 were hardcore. Game lost 2M players. Casualization was performed as emergency measure to prevent complete fail.

[PocketYoda]

Competitive gamers ruin nearly every online PvP game these days, meta crap and ruining mechanics to suit their insane obsessions to be the best at some virtual game...

Just look at that stupid fad that is e-sports... jesus these people...

[Y E O N N E]

Samial, on 02 March 2016 - 05:08 AM, said:

Competitive gamers ruin nearly every online PvP game these days, meta crap and ruining mechanics to suit their insane obsessions to be the best at some virtual game...

Just look at that stupid fad that is e-sports... jesus these people...

It's not a fad when it has been around and growing for the past 20 years...

[Rushin Roulette]

CW is for competitive players...... erm.... oooh kay...

Seriously, CW is a relaxation for any competitive player. I see myself as being a competitive player (if not a particularly good one personally... but that is a different question ) in the sense that I want to work in and be a part of a successful team.

It doesnt mean Im particularily interrested in changin the game or adapting it to my needs. Quite the opposite in fact. Any change means we need to look over our builds and strategies to work with whatever the unwashed masses have deemed to needing a change? Ghost heat was implemented? OK, stupid mechanic, but what can we do to make this work in our favour. Poptarting is the bees knees, what can we do to make poptarting against us as difficult as possible. heck, we even had an 8v8 comp match back then where our opponents complained to us that we had too many poptarts before I showed our lineup where we only had 3 mechs capable of mounting Jumpjets (only 2 of them were actual poptarts though), while 5 out of 8 enemy mechs were actual poptarts... go figure.

The way I would rate competitiveness in this game would be;

solo quickplay or CW
Group Quickplay
Group CW (vs. another group if we can manage to get one)
Inner unit private lobby match
a very long time nothing
league and tournament private lobby match

These are the games, where team setup, composition and tactics (as well as backup plans) are made days before the first shot is even released. Depending on knowledge of the opposing teams, multiple tactics will probably be made for each individual team separately and also counters for known tactics devised. Planning is done first with a dry run on a map going over areas where we want to force a fight and where we want to stay away from, then 2 teams from within the unit are made up with the predicted opposing team setup/style on one side and a 30 minute round is made with dry shooting (not aiming at your opponent directly, but infront of them so they are not damaged to show where the firing lines actually are and where to look out for during the upcoming map. After all that is done, a few live drops within the unit is started to see what may have been overlooked on the fly and in the heat of the moment. Once taht is all over, then the match with the real opponent can start.

CW on the other hand is comparatively a joke: Mechs are sometimes unleveled, tactics and drop sequence of mech types are made on the fly during the drop. No ahead planning, no coordinated builds, just relaxation.

P. S. I would also like to add that quite often being a competitive player does not mean we are good at solo play. Skill wise there is a definite difference, but strategically quite often comp players may end up derping off somewhere completely differently than the team is actually zerging to.
There is one very simple reason for this. Comp matches hardly ever use the same or even similar strategies as PUG matches use, no matter how effective they are in PUG games. Fights are also quite often in completely different sectors. The central ring in Terra Therma or the Stargate of Tourmaline? Good Comp teams will do their utmost to avoid going near these undefendable positions if they are expecting certain team compositions in the opponents.
These movement habits tend to leak over into PUG games if they are not paying enough attention. The same can hold true for movement within a team. A comp player will tend to lead a push and (quite often falsely) expect others to push with and end up with a messy 1 vs 12. Only because this is standard practice. If a push is ordered... no questions asked, a push is what you will get from everyone.... no pussying around with forwards backward, forwards, backwards... "those blue lights may hurt me if I push with him" crap.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 02 March 2016 - 06:22 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Russ has stated many times that the competition players are a very small %,, and 12 man drops, which are the competitive drops for the most part, he has stated on numerous occasions being in the 5% range..


Yes Competition needs to be thought about.. But comp players will shift to what ever they think works best.. Balance the games for the masses, and take a bit of info for the 5%..


Despite what people say, balance is far better than it was 2 years ago, when top teams basically ran the same thing.. a handful of mechs, and most running PPC+ac5. They listed the top teams builds, and they all outside of a few had basically the same weapons. Talk about boring game play. Those that like it,, Ok, but i am glad it has changed a bit.


as for the new meta of lasers.. i'll take that verse getting popped at 800k+ from PPC+ac5's.. at least lasers ya have a chance to twist even after you are hit

[JC Daxion]

Deathlike, on 01 March 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

To be fair, there's really not enough comp players to matter.

As long as there are many that "grind that XP bar" to its max (whether intentionally or not) regardless of how good they are, you will still get garbage for solo drops, and vastly different experiences in the group queue.

Up to a certain point, "mediocrity" is the new norm.

I am commenting to this, But please don't think most of my post about players is directed to you.. I am just talking in general.. to all the posts about how the competition sucks, the MM sucks, the players suck.. you know.. everything about this sucks.. just read the general forums and you can decide who it is directed too.



To be fair, Players that want comp matches, can do so... But many choose to avoid playing top teams.. I recall one town hall, with players saying how they would game the system no mater what they did. There was so much against what we was saying about how people would just do X or Y instead, that Russ got annoyed, and said.. well if you are just going to go out of your way to game the system no matter what, i'm not sure what else we can do.


PUG's are a crap shoot.. If you want competition in pugs, you are doing it wrong. You will have great matches, you will have bad matches, you will play with great players, and you will play with players on their first drop. To me, thats the PUG deal, and you just have to deal with it. You can't take into account everyone playing, maybe it is a great player, in a mech they never played trying something new. Or maybe they just are playing mechs they like, and not their top mech. that is what pugs are all about.


But for groups..
Players want top matches, Join factions that oppose each other, and set up tournies. the tools are there, people just avoid them, and then complain about the lack of competition.


When was the last time anyone here on the general forums tried to set up any kind of tournament? Or a Comp night.. I recall one a long time ago. People want high end games, Do something about it. don't just keep blaming PGI for a bad match maker. The closest thing i have seen about private matches, was one event that you got a reward for playing a private match. That was the only time in any sort of recent history that i can recall anyone using the general forums to try to get some sort of group competition going. To me, that is just kinda sad.

Advertise it.. Maybe make an official Comp night.. Do it weekly, or bi-weekly,, or what ever you get people to support it. Complaining about it, is easy.. Other online games i have played, people took effort to get pvp, and competitions rolling.. This game outside of some private guilds, i see basically nothing, and i have been watching the forums and playing the game, and an active community member for almost 3 years.. Yes there is a forum for events,,, 3 months, how many events? You are allowed to talk about events, or possible events in general.. the community event run forum i would think of as Scheduled event sign ups ect.

Maybe start off small just for fun, maybe later have entry fees, and distribute MC for winners.. I could see PGI getting behind some sort of game options to set up tournaments. Especially seeing they are talking about MC rewards, and ways to distribute it, for mercenaries in CW, and guilds.. This would not be a stretch to see it expanded further.



If people put half the amount of effort that they do into slamming PGI for every little thing, into trying to get some sort of competitive spirit going, and Good CW, playing opposite factions, verse just farming solo drops for C-bills,, the game would be so much better for all playing.


But instead people complain, or drop solo, then ***** about tiers, or how everyone sucks, or only noobs play Conquest, or LRM's suck, you noob learn to play!,, as they die to rain and then spout off at the mouth before the DC.. Or even worse the ones that don't even play because they don't like the map or mode.. The game is not going to evolve, and only will be worse for everyone.


IT is in the players power to bring great comp play to this game.. The big question is, does anyone wanna do anything about it.. Or just troll 20 pages of why something sucks, or why its great and the other side knows nothing....

Edited by JC Daxion, 02 March 2016 - 06:42 AM.

[Galenit]

Samial, on 02 March 2016 - 05:08 AM, said:

Competitive gamers ruin nearly every online PvP game these days, meta crap and ruining mechanics to suit their insane obsessions to be the best at some virtual game...

Just look at that stupid fad that is e-sports... jesus these people...

Some have their competition online, some in the realworld.

Did you ever hear:
Hey girls, iam a badass onlineplayer, do you want to date me?
And then a girl saying: "Yes"

But e-sports and online games are a great substitute for people that have no success in the real world.
If they would used the time they used to get a badass onlineplayer in the real world,
maybe the would have success in the rl.

Yeonne Greene, on 02 March 2016 - 05:31 AM, said:

It's not a fad when it has been around and growing for the past 20 years...

Everyone metawhoring, using the same builds, the same tactics and every little exploit and bug and that with crap graphics to gain every little advantage is fad, boring, stale and lifeless.

But in the last 20 years rl was going more harsh and a lot of people were tossed away,
there is no room for a lot of people in the rl anymore, so its also a great way to silent some of those people.

Bread and games and a little chance to get out of it and get their 15 minutes of fame.
Hope is the best chain to make happy slaves. (Dont know to explain it better with my bad english)

Edited by Galenit, 02 March 2016 - 06:29 AM.

[GorlockTheDestroyer]

Galenit, on 02 March 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Some have their competition online, some in the realworld.

Did you ever hear:
Hey girls, iam a badass onlineplayer, do you want to date me?
And then a girl saying: "Yes"

But e-sports and online games are a great substitute for people that have no success in the real world.
If they would used the time they used to get a badass onlineplayer in the real world,
maybe the would have success in the rl.


Everyone metawhoring, using the same builds, the same tactics and every little exploit and bug and that with crap graphics to gain every little advantage is fad, boring, stale and lifeless.

But in the last 20 years rl was going more harsh and a lot of people were tossed away,
there is no room for a lot of people in the rl anymore, so its also a great way to silent some of those people.

Bread and games and a little chance to get out of it and get their 15 minutes of fame.
Hope is the best chain to make happy slaves. (Dont know to explain it better with my bad english)

wow, just wow.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JC Daxion, on 02 March 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

When was the last time anyone here on the general forums tried to set up any kind of tournament? Or a Comp night.. I recall one a long time ago. People want high end games, Do something about it.

Advertise it.. Maybe make an official Comp night.. Do it weekly, or bi-weekly,, or what ever you get people to support it.

You mean things like MRBC, RHOD, MLMW, etc. There have been many community run tournaments (and many advertised on the forums) since pretty much closed beta when we realized we could sync drop.

[Khereg]

Samial, on 02 March 2016 - 05:08 AM, said:

Competitive gamers ruin nearly every online PvP game these days, meta crap and ruining mechanics to suit their insane obsessions to be the best at some virtual game...

I'm just going to point out that, by definition, the meta is the stuff that ISN'T crap. It's people running potato builds that are crippling themselves and then complaining that everyone else isn't crippling themselves sufficiently to make their favorite potato effective in game.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

MrMadguy, on 02 March 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

That's why features, like high quality LFD, LFR, random BGs, pug queue, etc. - are mandatory for every game. Some gamedevs try to force social obligations on players via intentionally turning this features into complete garbage. I.e. they have the following logic. There 4 levels of quality in such a games: 1) Pug queue - complete garbage, where other players are allowed to grief you, how they like, cuz there are 0 punishing mechanisms there. 2) Premades - you have to interact with elitists, who treat you the same way, as master treats his personal slaves. 3) Guild - you're treated the same way, as boss treats his employees or as commander treats his soldiers. Schedule, discipline, calls in the middle of the night (cuz they need healer NOW) , no personal life, threats, that you may be fired at any moment. 4) Playing with friends - only viable option. Don't have friends to play with? Find some and BRING THEM INTO OUR GAME! So, if you respect yourself and don't want to be scoffed - you have to pick 4rd way. That's, what I call network marketing.

And such scheme simply drives casual players away. They just can't find a place for them in such a game. And they are usually 90% of playerbase - and also most profitable one. Cuz they don't need much content, but pay the same price, as others. Driving them away - is pure suicide for every game. But they are not bad players, as elitists usually try to treat them. Dumbing down the game to remove any room for error, so elite will naturally disappear - isn't viable solution. It makes game boring and uninteresting.

How's that list coming along?

[Lily from animove]

Jon Gotham, on 02 March 2016 - 03:52 AM, said:

Did cata/ mop not cater to the casual crowd much more? The game got massively dumbed down as I remember. I was part of a raid group that fielded two 25 man's and two 10 man's. After the dumbing down, they ALL QUIT. Nearly every wow player I know that hadxquit, quit because it became too casual-there is a fine line mate where a game gets too faceroll.
Current wow is only about PvP for me, as I feel there isn't much for me,my fun went at the end of TBC honestly.

I do not want a swtor level of casual here. But that seems to be what some want....

I left with Burnin crusade after they implemented the Dragon and other lfight moutn grind.

Wow had the issue of "american management" where it's white or black, but never any shape of gray. Thats why they always alter stuff so drastically and never in small steps. Thats a weird cultural thing.
A causal wants to be entertained. They added "daily quests" for the "casuals" thats what they said. But seriously? who is entertained by doind DAILY the SAME QUEST? Surely not the casual, its just a necessarity any coreplayer or even hardcoreplayer does if there is someting behind it being viable to get. Too many MMO's interpret "Casual" into "brainless grind" which is not the case. WoW went very uninteresting after they altered the alterac battleground into "supply points" actually it killed the entire true PvP in alterac where it was about the glory to win a battleground that even could run 3 days. where only the top players could get great mashal and other top ranks. They turned it into "ignore opponent" farm points and spent it for end PvP Equip grind.

And as long as MMO or online game makers stop understanding that grind and forced competition is the best way to scare away casuals, they will not make good games anymore for casuals.

Guess why stupid games like farmerama or such nonsense is so succesfull? its purely enjoyable casual driven games.

I tried the trial of WOW after they had that skill rework, and god dammit what was left was not even a skill system it was a boring nonsense of low brain usage. Not every casual is dump, they are mostly people just not havign the time to play amongst the high competitive crowd. But this doesn't means making the coregameplay dump is catering to them. It is mostlikely killing the game for them too.
If ther eis ever goign to be a vanilla Wow (and we know there will never be) of the version before Battlefields were changed I happily spend all my day in alterac battling the horde on hours long battles.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 March 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

You mean things like MRBC, RHOD, MLMW, etc. There have been many community run tournaments (and many advertised on the forums) since pretty much closed beta when we realized we could sync drop.

well surely these things exist, but the palyenrumbers of those participating is actually not esport size and worthy.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 March 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lily from animove, on 02 March 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

well surely these things exist, but the palyenrumbers of those participating is actually not esport size and worthy.

I never made the claim that it was big enough to be esport worthy.....

[Aresye]

Galenit, on 02 March 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Some have their competition online, some in the realworld.

Did you ever hear:
Hey girls, iam a badass onlineplayer, do you want to date me?
And then a girl saying: "Yes"

But e-sports and online games are a great substitute for people that have no success in the real world.
If they would used the time they used to get a badass onlineplayer in the real world,
maybe the would have success in the rl.

Some have their competition in BOTH. It's called having a winner's mindset, and not settling for anything less.

And yes, you can totally pick up girls as a badass gamer. One of my friends from high school is an avid gamer, and actually works in the esports scene for Riot games, and he's literally a babe magnet. It's almost like maybe it has something more to do with him being confident, funny, and outgoing, than what he does for a living? hmmmmmmm

[pwnface]

Wolfways, on 02 March 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:

I'm sure easy mode is exactly why many use meta. Easy = fun for many players.
But then I find meta isn't always better. A meta TBR is "better" than a non-meta TBR, so much that it puts it on par with a stock weapon JM6-S, yet people claim the TBR is the best mech in the game lol.
Lasers are meta, yet AC's do a hell of a lot more damage.

ACs also require a longer face time, have limited ammo, weigh more, have projectile speed. Doing more damage doesn't automagically make it a better weapon. If you bring sub-optimal loadouts to fight other players that are as good or better than you, you are going to have a really bad time.

[pwnface]

Samial, on 02 March 2016 - 05:08 AM, said:

Competitive gamers ruin nearly every online PvP game these days, meta crap and ruining mechanics to suit their insane obsessions to be the best at some virtual game...

Just look at that stupid fad that is e-sports... jesus these people...

The Dota International tournament prizepool is currently at $18,429,613 according to https://www.dota2.co...nal/compendium/ . I think E-Sports has become more than just a "fad" and is here to stay for a really long time.

Galenit, on 02 March 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Some have their competition online, some in the realworld.

Did you ever hear:
Hey girls, iam a badass onlineplayer, do you want to date me?
And then a girl saying: "Yes"

But e-sports and online games are a great substitute for people that have no success in the real world.
If they would used the time they used to get a badass onlineplayer in the real world,
maybe the would have success in the rl.

Actually in South Korea this is pretty common. Starcraft players are celebrities with their own trading cards and TV shows and endorsement deals. I'm pretty sure these 16-18 year old Korean kids are getting laid way more than you ever will.

I think massive success in competitive gaming to the point where you can make a boatload of money doing it qualifies as a "real world" success. You can hate on these guys all you want but they are making millions of dollars playing computer games whereas you are doing it for free and complaining about it on a computer game forum.

[Bishop Steiner]

pwnface, on 02 March 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

The Dota International tournament prizepool is currently at $18,429,613 according to https://www.dota2.co...nal/compendium/ . I think E-Sports has become more than just a "fad" and is here to stay for a really long time.




Actually in South Korea this is pretty common. Starcraft players are celebrities with their own trading cards and TV shows and endorsement deals. I'm pretty sure these 16-18 year old Korean kids are getting laid way more than you ever will.

I think massive success in competitive gaming to the point where you can make a boatload of money doing it qualifies as a "real world" success. You can hate on these guys all you want but they are making millions of dollars playing computer games whereas you are doing it for free and complaining about it on a computer game forum.

Still waiting to see people making boatloads of money on MWO.

Pro-Gaming, I got no bone with. pretending we have a for real, serious Pro scene for MWO that makes me laugh a bit. Quality is there, with some units, but nowhere near the quantity, or scratch, to get one's epeen too swollen over.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 March 2016 - 01:02 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 02 March 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

Some have their competition in BOTH. It's called having a winner's mindset, and not settling for anything less.

And yes, you can totally pick up girls as a badass gamer. One of my friends from high school is an avid gamer, and actually works in the esports scene for Riot games, and he's literally a babe magnet. It's almost like maybe it has something more to do with him being confident, funny, and outgoing, than what he does for a living? hmmmmmmm

You can also be confident, and laid back, and still be a "winner ". Being dialed up to 11 at all things, all the time tends to wear people out, and gets old to be around. Nothing wrong with being selective with what one wants to compete at.

At sales, searching, racing, and such, I'll crush most people here, and take no prisoners.

But for me, video games go in the same category as reading our watching TV. To chill, relax, and decompress from irl.

You want to be hi strung and such playing them, cool. Respect that not everyone does. Also learn to respect that one doesn't have to play comp to understand balance in a game, or that having great reflexes and dropping in a copypasta unit doesn't automatically grant great insight into game balance. Sometimes it really just is good reflexes and being on a disciplined and coordinated team.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 March 2016 - 12:58 PM.