72 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

Metus regem, on 29 February 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

In the pre-quirk world of MWO, the Kodiak was a perfect example of why NOT to add clan battlemechs, it was hands down a better Atlas, post quirks, well if it is graced by the hit box gods it should do well, but still not as tough as an Atlas, thanks to quirks.

it will have it's place. The Kodiak will in all likeyhood outgun and out manuver any atlas it comes across thanks to lighter smaller weapons, 7 crit slot endo steel and of course the clan XL engines.

Also no atlas has jump jets or MASC.

[Wintersdark]

Revis Volek, on 29 February 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

I find it hard to believe this will be better then an AS7-S with 4SRM 6's and an AC20 running 60+kph...Quirks have made the Atlas a feared mech once again. This thing will be on par with the IIC Highlander and Onion IMO without any quirks.

weeeelllllll, the spirit bear will have a double tapping uac20, 4 ASRM6, the same armour, 20dhs, and run 70/MASC sprint 90kph.

But the AS7 will remain much tougher due to crazy hardcore structural quirks. Don't think the Kodiak will be like the Highlander and Orion though. The Highlander suffers from Highlanderitis (that is, low engine cap forces it to be slow and horrifically cumbersome), has generally limited hardpoints and mediocre hitboxes. IS highlanders are kind of gimpy too.

As with the Orion, it's saddled with... Being an Orion. All the same problems IS Orion's have.

[Scout Derek]

Wintersdark, on 29 February 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

weeeelllllll, the spirit bear will have a double tapping uac20, 4 ASRM6, the same armour, 20dhs, and run 70/MASC sprint 90kph.

But the AS7 will remain much tougher due to crazy hardcore structural quirks. Don't think the Kodiak will be like the Highlander and Orion though. The Highlander suffers from Highlanderitis (that is, low engine cap forces it to be slow and horrifically cumbersome), has generally limited hardpoints and mediocre hitboxes. IS highlanders are kind of gimpy too.

As with the Orion, it's saddled with... Being an Orion. All the same problems IS Orion's have.

to me the Orion IIC is much better than its counterpart, with it being able to have the largest engine with xl, and being able to carry a heavy load too makes it better than its regular counterpart.

in fact a few days ago I was locked in combat with one the other day... crit his CT with two volleys of uac 20 and 4srm 6 with Artemis... least to say he was not happy with the results...

[ScarecrowES]

In the end, the current quirk set doesn't matter. Once the rescaling patches are dropped, ALL humanoid mechs will get massive structure and/or armor quirks. It's the only way they'll be competitive with non-humanoid mechs. Think how small the front torso profile will be on a Dire Wolf compared to an Atlas once the Dire Wolf is reduced to the proper volumetric size.

[Wintersdark]

Scout Derek, on 29 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

to me the Orion IIC is much better than its counterpart, with it being able to have the largest engine with xl, and being able to carry a heavy load too makes it better than its regular counterpart.

in fact a few days ago I was locked in combat with one the other day... crit his CT with two volleys of uac 20 and 4srm 6 with Artemis... least to say he was not happy with the results...

It IS better than it's counterpart; but it's got the same weakness dragging it down too - size, bulkiness, hitboxes. The ClanXL helps a lot, for sure. I love my Orion IIC's But they're not as good as Timberwolves. Not bad mechs, but not really great ones either.

But the Kodiak? It's got adequate to good hardpoints, armor, speed. It can run, on one variant or another, almost any DWF build, but it can also do those builds with a larger engine. With 350-375 rated engines, it can get a magical mix of speed/maneuverability AND massive tonnage available for lighter clan weapons, while still packing in oodles of DHS. It certainly won't be a bad mech, unless the hitbox fairy kicks it square in the nuts.

[Nauht]

With those arms and if they keep the placement, they'll be good shields for the ST and CT.

The hitboxes would have to be all nuts to screw up the Kodiak.

[Wintersdark]

Nauht, on 29 February 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

With those arms and if they keep the placement, they'll be good shields for the ST and CT.

The hitboxes would have to be all nuts to screw up the Kodiak.

That's why I'm so stoked about the arms. Up like that and out, they'll shield the bulk of the torsos with even moderate twisting. As every Atlas pilot knows, those arms are amazing meatshields - and the atlas arms are far lower.

People tend to aim center mass much of the time; roughly where those arms are. This may not help against the very best players, who'll aim lower, but overall it should be extremely effective.

[Ace Selin]

Xavori, on 29 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

And while the Atlas 7S with AC20, 4 SRM6's, and 4 medium lasers is a very scary critter, the Kodiak can almost match that,

Yep the Spirit Bear would only be down 2 laser hardpoints. The 4SRM hardpoints & 1AC hardpoint really make the Atlas the brawelr it is and in that the Spirit Bear is a match.

Edited by Ace Selin, 29 February 2016 - 07:10 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Revis Volek, on 29 February 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

I find it hard to believe this will be better then an AS7-S with 4SRM 6's and an AC20 running 60+kph...Quirks have made the Atlas a feared mech once again. This thing will be on par with the IIC Highlander and Onion IMO without any quirks.

Battlemech construction rules + Clan Laser weights + Clan 2 slots DHS will keep this thing something to be feared. Its basically an Atlas with more lasers (something the clans are great at) and enough armor to contend with the Atlas (I believe?) in a one on one fight. It may end up with a little more firepower but less Armor, something that PGI seems to be leaning towards with the IS quirking. (idk why...I think its silly but whatever, we'll see how the new heat system balances things) Certain mechs needed it, like the Atlas, but others? Eh, case by case basis.

[Roadkill]

Revis Volek, on 29 February 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

I find it hard to believe this will be better then an AS7-S with 4SRM 6's and an AC20 running 60+kph...Quirks have made the Atlas a feared mech once again. This thing will be on par with the IIC Highlander and Onion IMO without any quirks.

90 kph > 60 kph. (Spirit Bear with MASC.)

Kodiak's weapons are also longer ranged than the equivalent Atlas weapons, though that is mitigated by the CUAC/20 being multi-shot.

Yes, the Atlas will absolutely be tankier. That's the point of the quirks that it desperately needed to be viable. The Kodiak will likely have the speed and maneuverability to be viable without those quirks. It will fill a different role, though, because nothing in this game can tank without quirks.

[Roadkill]

Scout Derek, on 29 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

to me the Orion IIC is much better than its counterpart, with it being able to have the largest engine with xl, and being able to carry a heavy load too makes it better than its regular counterpart.

Plus there's the fact that the IS Orion can't carry 3 x LRM-15 + 2 x UAC/10.

I've surprised a lot of enemy Mechs that come at me thinking I'm in an LRM boat. 2 x UAC/10 hurts.

[Wintersdark]

Roadkill, on 29 February 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

90 kph > 60 kph. (Spirit Bear with MASC.)

And that 90KPH comes along with vastly faster twisting. Twisting is what keeps an Atlas alive, even more than quirks.

The AS7's quirks allow it to eat more fire than the KDK could, but the KDK will spread damage better.

[Hillslam]

You people saying how the Kodiak will be worse than the Atlas.... do you understand how shooting works?

Seriously.


Ok, here's how it works: if I have more things to shoot on my big stompy robot, I am going to kill more of you. Period. Because I will aim at the places where your things that shoot are. And shoot them off. Then, all the Atlas structure quirks buy you is more time to watch me disassemble you.

My Kodiak Alpha > My Atlas-D (big quirked) Alpha. Erasing weapons happens faster. Weapons > Structure. Structure? Meh, you just get to zombie around impotently more.


....Of course ignore all of the above if you can't shoot straight.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 29 February 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

And that 90KPH comes along with vastly faster twisting. Twisting is what keeps an Atlas alive, even more than quirks.

The AS7's quirks allow it to eat more fire than the KDK could, but the KDK will spread damage better.

A 100 tonner with a 350 engine twists at 70 Degs/s (add 5%)
A 100 tonner with a 400 engine twists at 80 Degs/s (again, 5% double efficiency)

The Atlas has a 30-40% twist yaw speed buff. The S gets 40%.

MASC does not improve twist speed (but yes turn speed)

<MASCStats WeaponSpread="2.5" WeaponShake="0.25" DamageMax="3.74" DamageMin="3.06" DamageRate="0.5" GaugeDamagePoint="0.75" GaugeDrain="0.04" GaugeFill="0.1" BoostTurn="0.25" BoostDecel="1.7" BoostAccel="1.8" BoostSpeed="0.30"/>

Clam MkIV

So, the Atlas S with a 350 twists at 101.5 Deg/s because of that 45% boost
The Kodiak with a 400 engine would twist at 84 Deg/s

[Roadkill]

Mcgral18, on 29 February 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

So, the Atlas S with a 350 twists at 101.5 Deg/s because of that 45% boost
The Kodiak with a 400 engine would twist at 84 Deg/s

True enough, but turn rate also factors into twisting. When I'm rolling damage, I'm twisting and turning in order to get the combined rate.

Though given the Atlas S's 40% twist quirk, it probably still has a higher combined rate.

[Mcgral18]

Roadkill, on 29 February 2016 - 09:00 PM, said:

True enough, but turn rate also factors into twisting. When I'm rolling damage, I'm twisting and turning in order to get the combined rate.

Though given the Atlas S's 40% twist quirk, it probably still has a higher combined rate.

~5 Degs difference between 350 and 400

Same 5% efficiency bonus?
Atlai are also quirked for that, but lesser amounts. Still enough to offset that 5% in most cases (The K is surprisingly sad, at 15%).

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 29 February 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

A 100 tonner with a 350 engine twists at 70 Degs/s (add 5%)
A 100 tonner with a 400 engine twists at 80 Degs/s (again, 5% double efficiency)

The Atlas has a 30-40% twist yaw speed buff. The S gets 40%.

MASC does not improve twist speed (but yes turn speed)

<MASCStats WeaponSpread="2.5" WeaponShake="0.25" DamageMax="3.74" DamageMin="3.06" DamageRate="0.5" GaugeDamagePoint="0.75" GaugeDrain="0.04" GaugeFill="0.1" BoostTurn="0.25" BoostDecel="1.7" BoostAccel="1.8" BoostSpeed="0.30"/>

Clam MkIV

So, the Atlas S with a 350 twists at 101.5 Deg/s because of that 45% boost
The Kodiak with a 400 engine would twist at 84 Deg/s

Good point.

Though I'd question (and this is entirely questioning, I have no idea) whether twist speed is actually based on engine rating vs. tonnage, or simply on movement speed. I've no way to test that either way, though.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 29 February 2016 - 09:34 PM, said:

Though I'd question (and this is entirely questioning, I have no idea) whether twist speed is actually based on engine rating vs. tonnage, or simply on movement speed.

Engine rating vs. tonnage determines movement speed, so I'm not sure there's a difference here.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 29 February 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

Engine rating vs. tonnage determines movement speed, so I'm not sure there's a difference here.

There is, with MASC.

MASC increases top speed.

Does increased top speed increase twist rate? If twist rate is calculated from max speed, then it does. If twist rate is calculated by engine rating vs. tonnage, then it doesn't.

This shouldn't be a question, but PGI.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 29 February 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

There is, with MASC.

MASC increases top speed.

Does increased top speed increase twist rate? If twist rate is calculated from max speed, then it does. If twist rate is calculated by engine rating vs. tonnage, then it doesn't.

This shouldn't be a question, but PGI.

Oh, you meant MASC. Derp.

MASC just increases agility by specific percentages per MASC rating, then. It's the "default" speed that is correlated with agility (e.g. take a 5/8 MP heavy and compare to a 5/8 MP medium, ignore quirks).