47 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

FupDup, on 01 March 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

The exact same legs thing is stupid from a balance standpoint because the Mad Cat has plenty of advantages over the Mad Dog as it is. That, and mechs 15-tons apart being virtually the same size also has problems...

Also, from a construction rules standpoint it's even more stupid. The Mad Cat's legs each have 2 Endo-Steel slots. The Mad Dog's legs however have 2 open slots each.

Mad Cat Leg Crits
Mad Dog Leg Crits

Given that the internal structure of the legs is completely different between the two mechs, the lore holdover of identical leg size makes absolutely no sense.

Adding Endo to a mech doesn't make it appear any different externally. Not sure where you got that idea from. Battlemechs for instance, which in the lore had some variants with Endo and some with Standard. Did their legs look different? Why should they? Should PGI start a new rule where mechs with Endo or Ferro appear visually different from mechs without? Every time I toggle Endo on my IS mechs the legs should change?

And why should the TBR-MDD connection be severed? The HBR and SMN have the exact same legs, except that one has JJs installed and the other doesn't. Same is true of the ADR-KFX, WHK-DWF, and NVA-SCR, the latter pair of which has different structure and armour as well.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 01 March 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

Given that the internal structure of the legs is completely different between the two mechs, the lore holdover of identical leg size makes absolutely no sense.

It isn't the only one like that either, the Nova and Viper share the same problem.

[ScarecrowES]

1453 R, on 01 March 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

I don't really mind the Warhawk being big. Some 'Mechs just are (looking at you, Awesome).

I mind that from every angle except the direct front, a Warhawk is almost indistinguishable from a Whale without a second, third, and possibly fourth glance, followed by an outright Look. That's bogus, and it's extremely harmful to the Warhawk.

And yeah, I get the same-leg-molds thing on the TBR and Doge, but c'mon. Are you telling me the Doge doesn't look like it ate about fifteen hundred too many Scooby Snacks and every single one of them went to its thighs? It's just not good, and neither is a 60-ton 'Mech the same size as a 75-ton one.

It's tough to know how it will land volumetrically. The Vulture still has a very narrow torso... not a lot of meat there... and that will make a huge difference on the rescale. It might not end up being all that much smaller proportionate to the TBR than it is now. We might just have to accept this one as-is and trust that PGI will do the right thing, or how we can live with whatever they come up with.

As for the Warhawk, I'd hope a change in arm position and maybe a small change in stance might be enough to differentiate it from a Dire Wolf, visually. High-tucked arms with extended weapon barrels would be a very unique profile queue compared to the normal low and stubby arms of the DW. It's a start at least, and very easy to do without model modifications, I think.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 01 March 2016 - 05:51 PM.

[Tarogato]

ScarecrowES, on 01 March 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

As for the Warhawk, I'd hope a change in arm position and maybe a small change in stance might be enough to differentiate it from a Dire Wolf, visually. High-tucked arms with extended weapon barrels would be a very unique profile queue compared to the normal low and stubby arms of the DW. It's a start at least, and very easy to do without model modifications, I think.

*nods fervently*

[FupDup]

Tarogato, on 01 March 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Adding Endo to a mech doesn't make it appear any different externally. Not sure where you got that idea from. Battlemechs for instance, which in the lore had some variants with Endo and some with Standard. Did their legs look different? Why should they? Should PGI start a new rule where mechs with Endo or Ferro appear visually different from mechs without? Every time I toggle Endo on my IS mechs the legs should change?

I think Konniving did some lorehunting and found that mechs with Endo and/or FF were bulkier on average than their non-Endo non-FF equivalent variants.

I'm not literally suggesting that the game rescales mechs if you customize the internal goodies, but it's something to consider. If there are completely different skeletons for each mech, and given their large tonnage disparity, I really don't understand why people are so fixated on making those mechs be nearly identical in size.

It's also strange that if we really copy-pasted the legs from the TBR to the MDD, why are the MDD's legs more fragile than the TBR's? Shouldn't their leg armor and structure be 100% identical if we're going to religiously and zealously follow the idea that they literally just put a different torso on the same legs?

The MDD's legs were already modified by engineers to have lighter/weaker structure and lower armor capacity, which again makes it weird for them to be the same. They only look the same on the outside for some odd reason, but their actual in-game statistics are different.

Just because "The Gospel of TableTop said so" isn't a logical reason.

Tarogato, on 01 March 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

And why should the TBR-MDD connection be severed?

Is there any reason to NOT sever it other than arbitrary fluff text?

Tarogato, on 01 March 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

The HBR and SMN have the exact same legs, except that one has JJs installed and the other doesn't. Same is true of the ADR-KFX, WHK-DWF, and NVA-SCR, the latter pair of which has different structure and armour as well.

Whalehawk and Dire Whale at least have some relation in that they both have DHS stuck in there (except one empty Whale leg).

And in most of these cases it is in fact a balancing problem. The Warhawk currently shares its entire animation skeleton/rig with the Dire Whale, making it almost identical in size and silhouette. It's basically the Whalehawk instead of the Warhawk. The Nova's size issue is very well known by this point, as is the fact that both of those lights are kinda big...

Edited by FupDup, 01 March 2016 - 05:57 PM.

[Lucian Nostra]

Juodas Varnas, on 01 March 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

SAVE THE QUICKDRAW 2016!

Seriously. It's the most egregious example of getting absolutely butchered during the 2d-3d translation process.
It needs it way more than anything else.

My baby.. I love the Quickdraw but it's to wide, arms to bulky, legs to bulky.. really wish it was more like the artwork..

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 01 March 2016 - 06:02 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

I think there's a clear question I'd need to ask regarding the current MDD/TBR leg concern. It doesn't seem that a differential or similarity of leg size between these two mechs is an issue of balance, right? We'd not be saying that the Mad Dog having larger legs proportionately to keep in step with the legs on the Timberwolf make the Mad Dog more prone to being legged, or otherwise adversely affect proportioning such that, for instance, the torso is pushed higher than is reasonable for a mech its weight. And we'd be acknowledging that any such adverse height boosts could be countered by a change in stance to compensate, right?

So then is the MDD/TBR leg concern one of a largely aesthetic nature? If so, there are two further questions to consider. Knowing that lore necessitates that the legs remain the same size, do we lean in favor of adherance to lore, or to the pure aesthetic quality of the mech? Next, if we say that our consideration is based on an aesthetic concern, do we feel that modifying the models for minor aesthetic concerns is a reasonable use of PGI's time, knowing there are probably more pressing concerns for remodeling during the rescale process?

Basically, would we want a change, lore be damned, just because we think it looks better? And would we feel this is a good use of PGI's time, knowing it may impact other considerations?

If we're not utterly convinced this is something PGI should absolutely address at this time, I think it's something better left off the list for now.

[FupDup]

ScarecrowES, on 01 March 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

I think there's a clear question I'd need to ask regarding the current MDD/TBR leg concern. It doesn't seem that a differential or similarity of leg size between these two mechs is an issue of balance, right? We'd not be saying that the Mad Dog having larger legs proportionately to keep in step with the legs on the Timberwolf make the Mad Dog more prone to being legged, or otherwise adversely affect proportioning such that, for instance, the torso is pushed higher than is reasonable for a mech its weight. And we'd be acknowledging that any such adverse height boosts could be countered by a change in stance to compensate, right?

The legs are a part of the balancing picture because having the same leg size means that their torso size will have to be similar as well...having a tiny torso on top of big legs would look pretty silly, like the polar opposite of skipping leg day at the gym.




The Mad Doge's "fatal flaw" weakness is that it is fragile and easy to disarm.

Hitboxes are hard to change on this mech because of its very weird torso shape...it will generally result in either the CT being too big or the ST's being too big, or a bit of both. This venue probably can't deal with the issue by itself.

Another option is quirks to deal with it, which is possible but PGI seems reluctant with those on the Clan size, and it's a bandaid that covers up the mech's core design issues instead of truly fixing them.

The third heretical option is to make the whole mech a bit smaller (which includes both torso and legs), which makes it harder for enemies to shoot at and attracts less visual attention, thereby making it at least somewhat tougher. The only problem here is just fluff adherence...

Edited by FupDup, 01 March 2016 - 06:14 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

FupDup, on 01 March 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

The legs are a part of the balancing picture because having the same leg size means that their torso size will have to be similar as well...having a tiny torso on top of big legs would look pretty silly, like the polar opposite of skipping leg day at the gym.

The Mad Doge's "fatal flaw" weakness is that it is fragile and easy to disarm.

Hitboxes are hard to change on this mech because of its very weird torso shape...it will generally result in either the CT being too big or the ST's being too big, or a bit of both. This venue probably can't deal with the issue by itself.

Another option is quirks to deal with it, which is possible but PGI seems reluctant with those on the Clan size, and it's a bandaid that covers up the mech's core design issues instead of truly fixing them.

The third heretical option is to make the whole mech a bit smaller (which includes both torso and legs), which makes it harder for enemies to shoot at and attracts less visual attention, thereby making it at least somewhat tougher. The only problem here is just fluff adherence...

So, then... assuming we ignore lore to some extent, when the Mad Dog/Timberwolf go through rescale and given that the MDD will have larger legs proportional to total volume... should the mech get a size reduction (and it can be assumed it may get a minor total reduction in size), the larger legs would actually be a benefit in providing the Mad Dog with the smallest possible torso profiles in this process. Conversely, if the legs are reduced in size prior to rescale, the MDD would end up with a larger torso profile proportionally than if the legs had been left alone.

For such a result then, would we feel the aesthetic or balancing improvement to the Mad Dog would be the greater sum improvement? Which is more desirable? Do we modify for aesthetics and hope for quirks (if necessary), or do we keep proportions and hope for better balance (and deal with slightly less desirable aesthetics)?

*keep in mind that Lore in this case may not need to push hard, as I doubt a rescale would result in a massive differential between the relative sizes of the MDD and TBR from what we currently have. You'd probably have to have them standing right next to each other and look carefully to see any difference.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 01 March 2016 - 06:23 PM.

[Pjwned]

I wish that you didn't automatically see additional geometry when equipping missile launchers on mechs like the Jenner and Shadowhawk, no matter how small the launchers in question are.

[FupDup]

ScarecrowES, on 01 March 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

So, then... assuming we ignore lore to some extent, when the Mad Dog/Timberwolf go through rescale and given that the MDD will have larger legs proportional to total volume... should the mech get a size reduction (and it can be assumed it may get a minor total reduction in size), the larger legs would actually be a benefit in providing the Mad Dog with the smallest possible torso profiles in this process. Conversely, if the legs are reduced in size prior to rescale, the MDD would end up with a larger torso profile proportionally than if the legs had been left alone.

For such a result then, would we feel the aesthetic or balancing improvement to the Mad Dog would be the greater sum improvement? Which is more desirable?

*keep in mind that Lore in this case may not need to push hard, as I doubt a rescale would result in a massive differential between the relative sizes of the MDD and TBR from what we currently have. You'd probably have to have them standing right next to each other and look carefully to see any difference.

Big legs with a small torso has 2 problems:

1. It just looks really awkward, like this guy here:



2. People will just shoot the legs instead.

Pjwned, on 01 March 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

I wish that you didn't automatically see additional geometry when equipping missile launchers on mechs like the Jenner and Shadowhawk, no matter how small the launchers in question are.

Grey Boxes of Shame™. They make dynamic geometry behave in not-so-dynamic ways.

[ScarecrowES]

FupDup, on 01 March 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

Big legs with a small torso has 2 problems:

1. It just looks really awkward, like this guy here:

2. People will just shoot the legs instead.

I'm not totally convinced - not because I don't agree with the sentiment, but purely because I had intended to address more concrete and less aesthetic concerns. I haven't noticed a tendency for players to attack the legs of a MDD as a main weakness of the design. Quite the opposite, as MDD torsos are so fragile. I'd think keeping the legs to save the torso on a rescale would be the preferable option as benefit to the mech (not focusing on aesthetics).

I think there are, perhaps, better arguments for independent proportional rescaling than these two... though I suppose I could include them on the list under that category as a split balance/aesthetic consideration.

You wanna talk thunder-thighs though... dat Hunchie.

[Nauht]

Marauder - less booty please. The current backside is encroaching on yo mamma jokes.

Timberwolf - cylinder arms.

Battlemaster - oval cockpit a la Griffin. Hell rip the Griffin's cockpit and plonk it on the Battlemaster and I'll be happy.

Warhammer - I know it was done by public opinion but raise the head over the shoulders. All original artwork had the top of the head protuding over the shoulders. And temove the extra mass near the elbows. I like my WHM arms smooth and cylindrical.

Those are just the main ones that have been bugging me since those mechs were released.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 01 March 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

I'm not totally convinced - not because I don't agree with the sentiment

Why not, the Nova technically shares its legs with the SCrow and Viper (this one at least has JJs in it like the Nova), yet they will all be different sizes. In other words, with the Nova being shrunk, the disregard for this silly aspect of lore is already being dispensed, and I imagine the same will happen for the Kit Fox and Adder which share the same legs, so why is the Mad Dog not so lucky? Why do people cling to this specific instance but not to the others?

[ScarecrowES]

Nauht, on 01 March 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

Marauder - less booty please. The current backside is encroaching on yo mamma jokes.

Timberwolf - cylinder arms.

Battlemaster - oval cockpit a la Griffin. Hell rip the Griffin's cockpit and plonk it on the Battlemaster and I'll be happy.

Warhammer - I know it was done by public opinion but raise the head over the shoulders. All original artwork had the top of the head protuding over the shoulders. And temove the extra mass near the elbows. I like my WHM arms smooth and cylindrical.

Those are just the main ones that have been bugging me since those mechs were released.

As per the intent noted in my original post, I'm only looking at the sorts of minor model adjustments PGI could do during the rescale project. Convincing them to make major geometry changes on chassis that would otherwise require little or no real work during rescale would be a very tall task. However, convincing them to add a little squat to the legs or move the arms slightly during model rigging (which has to be done anyway) can probably be accomplished.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 March 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

Why not, the Nova technically shares its legs with the SCrow and Viper (this one at least has JJs in it like the Nova), yet they will all be different sizes. In other words, with the Nova being shrunk, the disregard for this silly aspect of lore is already being dispensed, and I imagine the same will happen for the Kit Fox and Adder which share the same legs, so why is the Mad Dog not so lucky? Why do people cling to this specific instance but not to the others?

Well, by my saying that I wasn't convinced, I meant specifically that I wasn't convinced that the leg difference or similarity in MDDs and TBRs is more than an issue of aesthetic preferences and thus may not fit the scope of model adjustments I'm attempting to compile.

I'm not sure my desire to remain faithful to lore overrides my sense of balance in this case, so I'm amenable to aesthetic changes on their own merits, but mostly if they aid a balance issue. I think it's easier to justify the time investment if balance or proportioning is at stake than purely subjective aesthetic considerations. Personally, I can live with the legs either way, though others feel strongly enough about it that I'd still include it as something PGI could consider if they have the time and want.

To be clear though, there's no indication PGI has any intention to rescale models using independent component resizing to achieve the desire volumetric result. In that, I mean PGI isn't likely looking to shave 5 tons off a Mad Dog by sucking the fat out of its thighs. They're just going to slightly shrink the whole model. Keeping the thighs fatter means any shrinkage will positively effect the size of the torso most. Given that Vultures have fragile torsos, it may be beneficial to leave the legs as is.

Either way, the legs end up, probably, being a different size than on the TBR, and I'm cool with that.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 02 March 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 02 March 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Well, by my saying that I wasn't convinced, I meant specifically that I wasn't convinced that the leg difference or similarity in MDDs and TBRs is more than an issue of aesthetic preferences and thus may not fit the scope of model adjustments I'm attempting to compile.

It is the reason that mechs like the Mad Dog and Warhawk suffer in the scale department in the first place, because they share the same leg and thus same size as their heavier counterparts.

[MATRAKA14]

This thread is super important, keep it alive.

Come and see the house of horrors!

Raven old long lasers:

Spoiler

Timberwolf:

• cilindric arms.
  
• flat back.
  
• extra misile ears (put them together with only 1 of them on each ST).

Spoiler

http://mwomercs.com/...al-enhancement/

Griffin black missile hard points, hanging 3m ugly launcher.

Spoiler

Also the fenix variant, has launchers of the same color as the body, not the ugly black ones.

Tinny ballistics and ppc barrels:

cataphract, jaggermech, awesome, k2 ...

Spoiler

Hunchback "dinamic" weapons.

Spoiler

King crab walk animation, those XL lady hipps.

Servermasters:

Spoiler

Crab cliping (walk animation)

Spoiler

The centurion.

• proportions.
  
• lack of missile doors.
  
• universally ugly black arm. (and dragons)

And of course catapults

Edited by MATRAKA14, 02 March 2016 - 10:54 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

God, please no cylindrical arms on the Timber Wolf, it was goofy looking in CBT and is goofy looking here.

[Juodas Varnas]

Also slim down the Centurion!
It's ok for him to be taller than the other mediums, just make him skinnier

Koniving, on 03 July 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

While Treb and Quickdraw do need rescales, the Treb is skinny compared to the Centurion...

But honestly, on the left is MWO's Centurion. On the right is the same Centurion rescaled to match the limb and body thickness of the concept art.

(Sorry, Koniving, for all the notifications of quoting you, hahaha)