286 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

MeiSooHaityu, on 02 March 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

It sounds like a good idea in theory.

I just hope it is fun. It needs to be a fun mechanic that is easy to understand, yet a challenging and rewarding to master. If it accomplishes that, I'm all for it.

I'm not gonna have big expectations due to their track record, but as long as PGI is willing to experiment, and not chicken out from the outcries of few loudmouths--like when they dabbled in and hastily abandoned info warfare--I am all for it. I prefer MWO to be more of a mech game, and less of a common shooter.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 05:48 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

I look forward to testing this. No longer an arbitrary ghost heat, but something the players can influence based on their actions.

This is similar to one of my suggestions a while back. Except I used potential damage output as the trigger and not a power draw mechanic. This will be cool as I always thought the GR should have something like this anyways.

[ScarecrowES]

So... just read through page one... but haven't gone through the other 3 pages to see if this was mentioned already...

I hate ghost heat... hate it... but how is "power draw with heat penalty" any less convoluted or any more clear to players? Let's say different weapons have different draw values... now, instead of just a situation where I know if I fire more than 2 large lasers I get a heat penalty, now I've got to calculate all the specific values of different weapon types I might have mounted and figure out just what configuration can be fired before I get a penalty. Is it one large laser and 2 mediums? 3 mediums and 2 smalls? And AC/20 and 2 smalls? Face it... ghost heat sucks, but it's a much more transparent concept.

Community members have come up with far better implementations of power draw than this.what

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 March 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:

I doubt, it, having to lead ballistics by a bit is only a hair more complicated than holding a laser on a component for 1 second. Most comp players I have played against are just as deadly when they bring 5 AC5 Maulers as they are when they bring lasers, if not more, depending on the circumstance.

-sigh- please point to where I said comp level players? I said a lot of players, more to the point, those that have only ever played laser vomit. I still remember a match from when the Mad Dog was only for real cash, if you bought both too level wave 1&2, I used my Mad Dog to walk sideways in front of two Dakka Wolves, they missed every shot, they could not be bothered to aim where I was going to be. I got behind them, and my Splat Dog had a good meal that day. The sad part is, I've been able to do similar things since....

[El Bandito]

ScarecrowES, on 02 March 2016 - 06:14 AM, said:

So... just read through page one... but haven't gone through the other 3 pages to see if this was mentioned already...

I hate ghost heat... hate it... but how is "power draw with heat penalty" any less convoluted or any more clear to players? Let's say different weapons have different draw values... now, instead of just a situation where I know if I fire more than 2 large lasers I get a heat penalty, now I've got to calculate all the specific values of different weapon types I might have mounted and figure out just what configuration can be fired before I get a penalty. Is it one large laser and 2 mediums? 3 mediums and 2 smalls? And AC/20 and 2 smalls? Face it... ghost heat sucks, but it's a much more transparent concept.

Community members have come up with far better implementations of power draw than this.what

It can be made more clear as long as PGI shows the players in the mechlab and in game, just how much energy value each weapon has. There are plenty of mech games where two or more resources are needed to mount and fire weapons, such as Armored Core series, so it won't be that hard to understand.

I'm sure there are better power draw systems, but I'm just happy that PGI acknowledges the current Ghost Heat system has severe flaws, and requires changes.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 06:28 AM.

[GrimRiver]

I've been pushing for an engine output based system for awhile now, only it was meant to curb high energy alpha spam.

Smaller the engine, the longer the cooldown was on energy weapon because the weapons are drawing more power then the engine can support at one time.

Ie: Like trying to put a V4 engine in a Ford-350, you just not gonna get the horsepower and torque you need.

[Duke Nedo]

ScarecrowES, on 02 March 2016 - 06:14 AM, said:

So... just read through page one... but haven't gone through the other 3 pages to see if this was mentioned already...

I hate ghost heat... hate it... but how is "power draw with heat penalty" any less convoluted or any more clear to players? Let's say different weapons have different draw values... now, instead of just a situation where I know if I fire more than 2 large lasers I get a heat penalty, now I've got to calculate all the specific values of different weapon types I might have mounted and figure out just what configuration can be fired before I get a penalty. Is it one large laser and 2 mediums? 3 mediums and 2 smalls? And AC/20 and 2 smalls? Face it... ghost heat sucks, but it's a much more transparent concept.

Community members have come up with far better implementations of power draw than this.what

Ghost heat is a half-arsed sloppy stacking penalty that you need to go to a 3rd party website to find out how many guns you can use of each type, and it's full of blatant holes so that it doesn't really do the job anyways except to make a few builds impossible.

With a power draw system or whatever they want to call it, they start from a clean sheet and can design the system more properly and most importantly integrate it into the HUD and UI so that players actually understands what's going on. Since this will be their own system, it also unlocks them from Lore/TT restrictions that you have on many of the other weapon stats.

I think this is the only way to go, and we are several who asked for something along these lines for a loooong time. But yeah, at the end of the day it's a kind of GH2.0, but it can be a better one.

And for those that just say we need a "proper heat system" instead, it's not that simple. There are variants with only E hardpoints that needs to remain viable, and there are gauss+just as many E hardpoints that needs to be comparably viable. Heat alone really is not the answer, something more is needed. I am all for a better heat scale with immersive and gameplay effects, bring it on! But that alone is not enough imo, with Gauss doing 15 damage for 1 heat and IS ERPPC 10 damage for 15 heat, and all kinds of combinations in between.

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 02 March 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

-sigh- please point to where I said comp level players? I said a lot of players, more to the point, those that have only ever played laser vomit. I still remember a match from when the Mad Dog was only for real cash, if you bought both too level wave 1&2, I used my Mad Dog to walk sideways in front of two Dakka Wolves, they missed every shot, they could not be bothered to aim where I was going to be. I got behind them, and my Splat Dog had a good meal that day. The sad part is, I've been able to do similar things since....

And it is your opinion that we should balance the game around players like that or ??

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

I'm not gonna have big expectations due to their track record, but as long as PGI is willing to experiment, and not chicken out from the outcries of few loudmouths--like when they dabbled in and hastily abandoned info warfare--I am all for it. I prefer MWO to be more of a mech game, and less of a common shooter.

Are they not basing this system on the outcries of a few loudmouths that can't figure out how to not poke in front of a firing line?

[C E Dwyer]

Vashramire, on 02 March 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

Russ did say all weapons use energy so ballistics and missiles will likely draw some power. Since they are basically unlinking weapon from ghost heat it will probably draw enough power so that you still can't alpha 4+ LRM15's or 2 AC20's without a heat penalty if that's the route they are going. Since we have no info it's hard to speculate how much power will be drawn. For all we know double tapping UAC's may really tax power and keep high alpha ballistics down.

Just seems P.G.I are doing what they always do, add another layer of complexity, that they will get wrong, instead of fixing the problem with what they have.

They will also use paul logic with regards to how much energy each uses.

RL

You can launch a missile with a car battery, but it will generate a lot of heat
Machines guns once cocked are gas operated, you'll take skin off your hand if your dumb enough to try hold a bare barrel, it
Chain guns are electrically operated, but are not in game.
Auto Canon are cocked electrically but after the first shot coil spring or gas operated
Railguns (gauss) draw a lot of power.
lasers can work with a penlight battery, but can have in theory an infinitely large power plant, the focus is the limiting factor, in range, they also generate a lot of heat.

P.P.C's ok its fictional but its really the only weapon that is going to be seriously effected by this system as it generates a lot of heat and takes more power than a laser, as its a concentrated single burst like a condensed pulse laser, not the word like .

Each pilot also sits on a cold fusion reactor generating enough power to make a machine walk like a man and to a limited degree fight like one, just how in holy hell is something that powerful going to be effected by such small considerations as weapons fire..

This idea just makes me shake my head at the stupid levels of complexity involved.

Lower the GOD DAMN heat thresh hold and problem's cut back hard, if not solved, without all this extra crap

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

Why should I stare at you when there are Lights spotting for me? Lights that are far harder to hit with ACs.

Honestly, this AC gonna be super powerful BS gotta stop. It is gonna be more useful, but overall TTK will increase. And Assaults will be picked more as a bonus!

Lights are pretty easy to hit with 5 AC5s. Its easier than killing them with lasers.

Its not BS. You nerf front-loaded alpha damage, of COURSE DPS is going to become the go to. No, your 2 ML, LRM10, SRM4 AC5, LL build is not going to all of a sudden make you compete with EmP because they can't alpha anymore.


And your LRM anecdote is real cute, but pointless. "My lights will spot for me while I LRM you" Well, my lights will back core you while you try. And I have a real hard time believing that stare-down warrior is going to have a higher TTK than what we have now. It sounds like it might, because your mistakes won't be punished as harshly, but really the core gameplay is gonna have mechs dropping in seconds just the same.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 March 2016 - 07:13 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Let me throw some hypothesis out there. This is just my musings, I do not have insider information.

For you RPG folks out there, think of the power mechanic as action points.

Perhaps a 300 engine will product 15 action points every 10 seconds. Each weapon fired would draw from that action point pool. MG=1 point, AC2=2 points, AC5=3 points, AC10=4 points, AC20=5 points, UAC5=4 points, LBX10=3 points (this is all for example, no clue of accuracy or intent). So you have the engine production rate vs weapon cost x cooldown.

This doesn't sound too complicated since the majority of the math will be done in the background. The only think we'll have to look at is another bar (like the heat bar, JJ bar, MASC bar, etc.

This is not hard.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

Are they not basing this system on the outcries of a few loudmouths that can't figure out how to not poke in front of a firing line?

Even high level players who understands the game agree that current system is flawed.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2016 - 07:12 AM, said:

Lights are pretty easy to hit with 5 AC5s. Its easier than killing them with lasers.

Its not BS. You nerf front-loaded alpha damage, of COURSE DPS is going to become the go to. No, your 2 ML, LRM10, SRM4 AC5, LL build is not going to all of a sudden make you compete with EmP because they can't alpha anymore.

And your LRM anecdote is real cute, but pointless. "My lights will spot for me while I LRM you" Well, my lights will back core you while you try. And I have a real hard time believing that stare-down warrior is going to have a higher TTK than what we have now. It sounds like it might, because your mistakes won't be punished as harshly, but really the core gameplay is gonna have mechs dropping in seconds just the same.

I don't even need Lights to lurm the dakka mechs when they ignorantly stare down in front of my mates to do face DPS. The fact you are over-exaggerating DPS build's strength while downplaying its weaknesses makes you unfit for this discussion.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 07:20 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

Even high level players who understands the game agree that current system is flawed.

My only problem is lots of those people exploit those flaws to "demonstrate" to PGI how broke it is while the rest suffer. But that's a discussion for another thread.

[Tamwulf]

I read the tittle as an announcement on the new heat system. Instead, I found more speculation and wish-listing.

The current heat system is flawed, and I hope the new system is better. Lot's of good ideas in this thread. I hope PGI is reading it!

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

Even high level players who understands the game agree that current system is flawed.




Why should I even need Lights when you ignorantly stand in front of my mates to do face DPS? The fact you are over-exaggerating DPS build's strength while downplaying its weaknesses makes you unfit for this discussion.

You brought the lights into it!! I just said I don't care about your stupid anecdote, we aren't going to get anywhere saying "I'll lurm you while you stand there" because I won't be standing there if someone is shooting me with lurms. Drop the ******** anecdote.

Do you really not realize, that taking away "poke" high damage mechs effectively turns loadouts into DPS mechs, and therefore the highest and coolest running DPS comes from ballistics? Its not that hard to figure out.

If you think that you have to play ballistic boats by standing out in the open the entire time getting shot, than you clearly need to learn how to play.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 March 2016 - 07:24 AM.

[El Bandito]

Tamwulf, on 02 March 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

I read the tittle as an announcement on the new heat system. Instead, I found more speculation and wish-listing.

The current heat system is flawed, and I hope the new system is better. Lot's of good ideas in this thread. I hope PGI is reading it!

Technically PGI is working on a new heat system. It is still in testing phase though. Hope it gets onto the PTS soon.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

You brought the lights into it!! I just said I don't care about your stupid anecdote, we aren't going to get anywhere saying "I'll lurm you while you stand there" because I won't be standing there if someone is shooting me with lurms. Drop the ******** anecdote.

Do you really not realize, that taking away "poke" high damage mechs effectively turns loadouts into DPS mechs, and therefore the highest and coolest running DPS comes from ballistics? Its not that hard to figure out.

And I am gonna repeat that such builds will only increase TTK compared to what we have now. You can argue with me all you want, or get a bunch of people who actually know how to play the game, instead of standing in the open and and firing their guns, and test it out with AC builds. Most likely you will need to get close to have those ACs to be as useful as lasers.

Since you wont be standing and shooting while LRMs are in the air, your DPS build will be distinctly inferior to that of high alpha peekaboo style--the style this change wants to fix.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 07:36 AM.

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

And it is your opinion that we should balance the game around players like that or ??

Come on Gas, I know you are smarter and better than this... My point is that there is going to be players that are going to lack the skills to go to an AC heavy meta and keep their performance level they are used to seeing, and we all know that they will come to the boards and cry foul. Those of us that can adapt, or have the skills needed for it, will not see much if any dip in our performance.

As for balance, it should be balanced with the majority of the playerbase in mind, not the top or bottom percentage.

[Gas Guzzler]

cdlord, on 02 March 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

My only problem is lots of those people exploit those flaws to "demonstrate" to PGI how broke it is while the rest suffer. But that's a discussion for another thread.

No body demonstrates anything. They play to win.

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 02 March 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

Come on Gas, I know you are smarter and better than this... My point is that there is going to be players that are going to lack the skills to go to an AC heavy meta and keep their performance level they are used to seeing, and we all know that they will come to the boards and cry foul. Those of us that can adapt, or have the skills needed for it, will not see much if any dip in our performance.

As for balance, it should be balanced with the majority of the playerbase in mind, not the top or bottom percentage.

I'm not worrying about adapting, I just don't like removing the reason to use a large percentage of the mechs in this game, which will largely come down to how far they go with this system. We don't know the details yet, at this point I'm just arguing against the ideology that making everybody have to chainfire everything is the way to go, as it is going to have serious side effects, along with not really fixing anything. Kind of like those medication commercials that say hey will help your allergies, side effects include headache, vomiting, fatigue, death, and damnation to hell.

And that last point is another discussion, but you will find people on both sides of the fence there. If you balance around the majority of the playerbase, than you will leave things open to be overpowered at high level play, which also means lack of variety at high level play, which sucks. And frankly, if you look at this game now, when I dropped in my alt account in Tier3-4, I COULD take the famous 2 ML, LRM10, SRM 4, LL, AC5 mixed build and do just fine, so if balance in the mid range is fine, then what is the problem?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 March 2016 - 07:33 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

And I am gonna repeat that such builds will only increase TTK compared to what we have now. You can argue with me all you want, or get a bunch of people who actually know how to play the game, instead of standing in the open and and firing their guns, and test it out with AC builds. Most likely you will need to get close to have those ACs to be as useful as lasers.

Having used AC builds in comp matches (yes, they are used despite how ZOMG OP LAZORS ARE), and fought against them, no that is not correct. The Mauler MX90 can put out 25 damage PPFLD alphas at 840m, and it has boosted velocity to boot. It is the long range dakka king. A Dakka Dire can strip the SRM torso off of an Atlas in seconds at 300-400 meters (where IS laser vomit happens), even while trying to torso twist, it is only so effective.

Currently, ballistic boats like those are used in combination with other types of builds to lay down ridiculous damage when the opportunity arises. That doesn't mean standing out in the open getting shot. It takes more thought than that.