286 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

People are forgetting that alpha poke mechs are the reason that super DPS ballistic boats aren't the go-to Assaults and Heavies.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 10:55 PM, said:

As long as they are standing still? Not much. But if people keep moving, those ACs will simply spread damage. I play tons of dakka mechs, and I have to say, it is less powerful than laser vomit.

"Simply spread damage" Spread it where? Into The Ether?

I don't know what game you are playing, but its not hard to hit mechs in the right place with ACs, especially in brawl range.

"Less powerful" isn't the right phrase. It is objectively more powerful (more DPS) but having to stare to put out DPS is its down fall, not the difficult aiming. If I everyone has to stare to put out damage... then who ever can do the most damage wins.

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 10:55 PM, said:

Which is why i welcome this change. ACs have been sidelined for too long.

I see Maulers everywhere in MSI. They aren't running laser vomit.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 March 2016 - 11:00 PM, said:

"Simply spread damage" Spread it where? Into The Ether?

I don't know what game you are playing, but its not hard to hit mechs in the right place with ACs, especially in brawl range.

"Less powerful" isn't the right phrase. It is objectively more powerful (more DPS) but having to stare to put out DPS is its down fall, not the difficult aiming. If I everyone has to stare to put out damage... then who ever can do the most damage wins.

I see Maulers everywhere in MSI. They aren't running laser vomit.

If your idea of countering face DPS is with more face DPS, then you got no imagination. Besides, I'd love to rain LRMs on those noobs in pug queue when they try to stand still and DPS. Much easier to lurm them than peekaboo shooters we have now.

Besides, nerfing ACs when required is a very simple solution.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 March 2016 - 11:05 PM.

[Vashramire]

Not too jazzed about the ghost heat staying around but hopefully it's not an oppressive system. Of course if it draws power when you fire, do you have to wait for power to "regen" over time or does it auto recharge every couple seconds to full? I'd personally rather if you exceed a power threshold that instead of extra heat, your weapons just didn't fire (because they have no power). Basically riding the line would force you to chain fire. Attempt to alpha too far over and weapons take damage or shut down like an UAC jam.

Also we don't know if the power draw for certain weapons will spike for like ghost heat. Like will all ML draw the same amount per laser and not draw "ghost power" at 7? Is the power level the same for all mechs? Is it tied to engine rating (god I hope not), or weapon loadout. Will AMS(or LAMS if it comes) draw power? Would ECM or BAP hit your power? Will Artemis weapons draw more than non Artemis? There's a lot I would like to know about.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 11:01 PM, said:

If you idea of countering face DPS is with more face DPS, then you got no imagination. Besides, I'd love to rain LRMs on those noobs in pug queue when they try to stand still and DPS. Much easier to lurm them than peekaboo shooters we have now.

You mean while you stare at me to hold a lock? I'm sure no one would shoot you.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 March 2016 - 11:04 PM, said:

You mean while you stare at me to hold a lock? I'm sure no one would shoot you.

Why should I stare at you when there are Lights spotting for me? Lights that are far harder to hit with ACs.

Honestly, this AC gonna be super powerful BS gotta stop. It is gonna be more useful, but overall TTK will increase. And Assaults will be picked more as a bonus!

Edited by El Bandito, 01 March 2016 - 11:11 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

It is gonna replace the Ghost Heat system, though in early stage. That's my take from the Twitter reply Russ gave to Homeless Bill.





I personally advocated such system, and I think it is better than what we have now, though less excited about the GH v.2 part. If PGI used forced chain fire and added progressive heat penalty, then I would really become ecstatic.

Makes me happy they take this direction, I have also advocated something along these lines... but as always, it's all in the implementation. At the end of the day it will be some kind of GH2.0, let's just hope that they implement it in a much more consistent and comprehensive way this time around.

[Duke Nedo]

About nerfing laser vomit, from my perspective I hope that the end result of this GH2.0 will basically be patched holes in the GH1.0. IMO, laser vomit builds that do trigger GH at full alpha behaves quite nicely today, say for example my 4x LPL WHM-7S, it performs really well with GH1.0 firing mostly 2x 2x LPL, but if cold I can once in a while deliver a full 4x LPL at a heat penalty too. I feel that is in a rather good spot, so if this GH2.0 is tuned so that these behave roughly the same while addressing builds like 3xLPL/4xML or 2x cLPL/5xcERML blarfs then we're golden imo.

The difficult part will probably be to not cripple some mixed builds in the process, they definitely don't need nerfing. Giving Gauss a decent power draw is probably needed, but perhaps also reduce the CD a little more to compensate, while keeping power draw very low for other ballistics and SRMs. I'd also advocate a low power draw for PPCs, because running PPC + lasers need a buff rather than a nerf imo.

[LordKnightFandragon]

RestosIII, on 01 March 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

I can't wait to see PPCs, ACs, and MGs having way too much of a power draw. Any bets on if quad PPC Masakaris will still be viable?

LOL, as much as PGI hates clanners, the PPC Warhawk will have negative energy pool quirks just because.

[Widowmaker1981]

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

I personally advocated such system, and I think it is better than what we have now, though less excited about the GH v.2 part. If PGI used forced chain fire and added progressive heat penalty, then I would really become ecstatic.

I would become not here anymore.

[Lily from animove]

STUPID, heat is already a different named kind of "power draw" they just need to scale this right. Amazing how PGI always finds the most unsuited and complicated and on top non working "solution"

non used heat = power available.
heat drained power.

Now we add a 2nd heat systems,

This just shows me that PGI is bad at abstracting complex systems and designing well working asbtracted systems.

GG paul, seriously a great brainfart, please try again and just properly scale Heat.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 March 2016 - 12:48 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Lily from animove, on 02 March 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

STUPID, heat is already a different named kind of "power draw" they just need to scale this right. Amazing how PGI always finds the most unsuited and complicated and on top non working "solution"

The biggest difference between heat and power draw is probably that they can assign a high power draw to Gauss, and thereby they have a chance to make all E variants viable, while at the same time not automatically making Gauss+E variants better.

[Lily from animove]

Duke Nedo, on 02 March 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

The biggest difference between heat and power draw is probably that they can assign a high power draw to Gauss, and thereby they have a chance to make all E variants viable, while at the same time not automatically making Gauss+E variants better.

And whats that needed for? nothing. They could simply add heat to the gauss?
Why don't they add heat to the gauss? because of "TT value" reaosns? How much TT Rules are ina "power" system? none!

We have currently

heat,
Ammo
RoF

that would be enough values to balance weapons.

The meta gamers won't care and quickly figure out whats working, but God luck trying the average mecharrior to figure this out and use it properly.

Good luck trying to balance the emchs that already are badly balanced because some mechs like WHK will never be more than just large energy wepaon carriers due to their hardpoint numbers and fixed DHS. These mechs will be the losers of the new system. But thats ok, because warhawk is so OP epic meat it needs that. So they will with this system isntantly start to "bandaid" fix the flaws of this system with additional quirks for some mechs. And that shows how much nonsense this "solution" is.

A solution isan imporvement to a situation, not switch from problem A to problem B. PGI is wastign development time and money for a broken concept and thats not good.

[C E Dwyer]

Sounds like a typically over complex system that P.G.I can never make work properly, just like the target lock system they came up with last year, already they have a far simpler answer, that's already been suggested in this thread alone.

Lower the heat thresh hold.
Then remove Ghost heat.

Dakka becomes more widely used, you can't alpha laser boats or P.P.C boats without doing a Stock nova Prime to yourself (BOOM)

D.P.S becomes far more important, than alpha, Assaults get their mojo back, because they can face tank the incoming fire better than any other weight, and last longer, than they do now.

Its a far simpler system, can be implemented far quicker, less can go wrong, and we don't know the values this 'power draw' system will be using, heh it could just be heat scale renamed and slightly adjusted for all we know, and nothing will change, as Lasers cause more heat and draw more power, in all systems that could be used, including the current one

[LordKnightFandragon]

Duke Nedo, on 02 March 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

The biggest difference between heat and power draw is probably that they can assign a high power draw to Gauss, and thereby they have a chance to make all E variants viable, while at the same time not automatically making Gauss+E variants better.

Because honestly, a Gauss would have immense power draw, the larger the weapon, the more powerdraw it would have.

I can somehow foresee the new meta being hordes of low power draw weapons...

Really, PGI is just changing the way people get thier big *** alpha...

[Prof RJ Gumby]

So this basically will be ghost heat 2.0 with (C)LPL/(C-ER)ML and other loopholes closed? Fine by me.
Still, the treshold must be somewhat generous or scaled, so that fatties still can have more alpha than lights.

Nightshade24, on 01 March 2016 - 10:38 PM, said:

... Also firing say SRM 6, AC 20, Gauss, 5 Med lasers, 2 large lasers, a flamer, and an AC 2 will give no ghost heat but 7 medium lasers, 3 er large lasers, or 3 LRM 10's gives ghost heat (isolated, not all together)

Firing such a mixed combo already have a ton of penalties, weapons cancel out each other advantages, and totally spreads over the enemy due range/dropoff/target lead issues. (granted there is a mech that could actually have such setup).

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 11:01 PM, said:

If your idea of countering face DPS is with more face DPS, then you got no imagination. Besides, I'd love to rain LRMs on those noobs in pug queue when they try to stand still and DPS. Much easier to lurm them than peekaboo shooters we have now.
Besides, nerfing ACs when required is a very simple solution.

Gas Guzzler, on 01 March 2016 - 11:04 PM, said:

You mean while you stare at me to hold a lock? I'm sure no one would shoot you.

The point is, with many DPS boats staring at each other, the lurmers don't need to stare at anyone by themselves.
-----
as to potential power of dps mechs - please not most of them are quite gererously quirked to stay useful. Yeah, few mechs like the Daishi may cause problems, but the Daishi always cause problems.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 02 March 2016 - 01:13 AM.

[El Bandito]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 March 2016 - 01:05 AM, said:

Because honestly, a Gauss would have immense power draw, the larger the weapon, the more powerdraw it would have.

I can somehow foresee the new meta being hordes of low power draw weapons...

Really, PGI is just changing the way people get thier big *** alpha...

I doubt alphas as big as we currently have will exist after this change. Those low draw weapons would most likely be short ranged, or low damage. Boating them will not grant the same lethality, or range as current laser/gauss vomit meta.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 01:13 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Lily from animove, on 02 March 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

And whats that needed for? nothing. They could simply add heat to the gauss?
Why don't they add heat to the gauss? because of "TT value" reaosns? How much TT Rules are ina "power" system? none!

We have currently

heat,
Ammo
RoF

that would be enough values to balance weapons.

The meta gamers won't care and quickly figure out whats working, but God luck trying the average mecharrior to figure this out and use it properly.

Good luck trying to balance the emchs that already are badly balanced because some mechs like WHK will never be more than just large energy wepaon carriers due to their hardpoint numbers and fixed DHS. These mechs will be the losers of the new system. But thats ok, because warhawk is so OP epic meat it needs that. So they will with this system isntantly start to "bandaid" fix the flaws of this system with additional quirks for some mechs. And that shows how much nonsense this "solution" is.

A solution isan imporvement to a situation, not switch from problem A to problem B. PGI is wastign development time and money for a broken concept and thats not good.

Yeah basically... I have understood that outright breaking Lore and TT rules is a big NONO...

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 March 2016 - 01:05 AM, said:

Because honestly, a Gauss would have immense power draw, the larger the weapon, the more powerdraw it would have.

I can somehow foresee the new meta being hordes of low power draw weapons...

Really, PGI is just changing the way people get thier big *** alpha...

Well, with a new variable they can get more consistency without breaking TT rules. If you look up the Damage per Heat score of all weapons it ranges from 15 to ~1, that's a huge span, making it difficult to use Heat alone to restrict big alphas. So yeah, I think some kind of extra layer is needed in any case, the real question is if PGI can implement this extra layer in a comprehensive way... prepare for the worst, hope for the best. ^^

[Nightshade24]

Lily from animove, on 02 March 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

STUPID, heat is already a different named kind of "power draw" they just need to scale this right. Amazing how PGI always finds the most unsuited and complicated and on top non working "solution"

non used heat = power available.
heat drained power.

Now we add a 2nd heat systems,

This just shows me that PGI is bad at abstracting complex systems and designing well working asbtracted systems.

GG paul, seriously a great brainfart, please try again and just properly scale Heat.

From my knowledge this was the most common suggested idea as well as the one with the best applicability to MW: O.
Even people like Kanajashi (who is very focused on ballance aspects of the game and makes great tutorials and understands many key aspects of the game to the line.) supports the idea as well as literally an Essay (no seriously, an accedemic essay) written on this method of heat on some forums (not MW: O though as if it was posted and may have been -it was drowned out in the list of the 50 million other suggestions like "remove LRM's" "Nerf clans" "Nerf IS" "why not allow mix tech and unlock everything for omnimechs" and so on... )

Kanajashis heat analysis and suggestions video:


ikillbutterflies video showing "power draw" system. NOTE: he beyound putting a warning message saying you are drawing to much power (overloaded reactor) there is a lil bar besides the heat bar that shows how much you are 'drawing'.

In short: this system is a much more simplified BUT efficient ghost heat system. Best thing to happen to heat yet.

EDIT: should have linked ikillbuterflies video, herderp. (at least it was mentioned in the above)

Edited by Nightshade24, 02 March 2016 - 08:32 PM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 March 2016 - 01:05 AM, said:

Because honestly, a Gauss would have immense power draw, the larger the weapon, the more powerdraw it would have.
I can somehow foresee the new meta being hordes of low power draw weapons...
Really, PGI is just changing the way people get thier big *** alpha...

This shouldn't and won't be a revolution, just an improvement (hopefully). Power draw value can be actually easily adjusted to balance all the weapons in a simple manner I.E. It could allow setting up the max no-ghost-heat alpha at any number you want. Set up the treshold at 40 draw and make every weapon have <power draw=dmg> and voila -> no alpha above 40dmg without ghost heat possible.