41 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

First off, Viridian Bog can suck my left nut. I frickin' hate that map anytime it enters rotation. However, tonight I just got it for the third time in a row, when I did not vote for it any time, and I had a x3 multiplier for the map and a x2 multiplier for the mode.

I'm usually the guy that says if you can't play in all environments and all game modes, you're weak. I'm going to add the following caveat to that... if you get it three or more times in a row, you've got a right to *****!!!

Fix the rotation, please? Make it work on an even basis, please?

I can't wait for the 15th of this month, when they lock down the votes; once you vote, you can't change it, you can't game the system. However, that is not going to help keep Viridian Bog, or any other stupid map that is under high-pickings, these days (Viridian, Frozen City (normal and Night), and Alpine {actually, I still like Alpine a lot}), out of my hair. Frozen is another one that's ridiculous, because game-play positions are about 85% predictable; I've rarely had a game on there that was hard to follow. Terra Therma gets played only a little less often than the three I mentioned, above, and then I get Mordor maybe 5% of the time, maybe less than that.

I like the voting system, but even I have to admit we've become locked into a cycle of the same three maps played all the time. I'll really be grateful to see the no percentage before choice and the one map one mode vote locked in on the 15th. However, if that doesn't fix the problem, we may have to go back to the way things were before the voting system, which was not much better than it is, now.

[Revis Volek]

funny you say this..i have played bog so much 3 days out of the 5 i played last week to the point i would derp out by the 5th or 6th time i got it because i was just tired of watching the terrible train wreck that is every match i get on that map.

On the other hand i have played polar highlands a total of 20 times since it came out....lame. I played bog 20 times this week already maybe more. Why do people like bog? I will never know and why cant i have a say in the things i don't like in this game? Games are suppose to be fun, if you DON'T like it it more then likely isn't fun to you and kinda defeats the purpose of playing your game.


Lame Map rotation (or lack there of) sucks and is more then often the reason i sign off early and play other stuff. I play Bog and Frozen City ALWAYS with a sprinkle of Crimson and Tourmaline once and a while. But yea 3 or 4 maps is all i ever see as well.

Anyone remember that map Mining collective? Or even better Alpine peaks? Wasn't a map Called Terrible Therma in this game for a while? Haven't seen it since Christmas it seems like....*sigh* miss the old days of Random Maps.

Edited by Revis Volek, 02 March 2016 - 09:14 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I would prefer Bog to the endless parade of Frozen City. Haven't seen it in awhile.

[El Bandito]

There are two versions of Frozen City, which means it is twice as likely to appear in the rotation. Tell PGI to either take out the day version or rework the map into one fast.

[Threat Doc]

Russ keeps saying they hear us, but I don't recall reading anything about anything coming out in this coming patch, anywhere, even off-site. Of course, I don't have Twitter, so I guess my ideas and complaints aren't good enough for the almighty eyes of Russ Bullock.

[Wolfways]

I'd gladly never have to play Viridian Bog, Frozen City (day and night), Mining Collective, HPG Manifold, and Crimson Strait again (I actually like Crimson except that all the fighting happens, as usual, where there is LRM cover. I hate that area even when I'm not using LRM's).
Polar is really the only good map (but could do with a couple more features) and the rest are...meh.

Oh, and all the CW maps suck big time

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

There are two versions of Frozen City, which means it is twice as likely to appear in the rotation. Tell PGI to either take out the day version or rework the map into one fast.

Well that, and they need to shrink the vote pool from 4 to 3 on the maps. That decreases the chance a map has for appearing again. We don't have enough maps for a 4-ballot.

[MechWarrior849305]

Why do you even play quick play matches? Play CW WAAAAY more entertaining. There is the only one terrible map out there - Boreal Vault, which has 3/13 chances to appear against 2/13 for the rest.

PS: And yes, Bog is the worst map in MWO. Period.

Edited by MechWarrior849305, 02 March 2016 - 10:34 PM.

[Wintersdark]

MechWarrior849305, on 02 March 2016 - 10:34 PM, said:

Why do you even play quick play matches? Play CW WAAAAY more entertaining. There is the only one terrible map out there - Boreal Vault, which has 3/13 chances to appear against 2/13 for the rest.

PS: And yes, Bog is the worst map in MWO. Period.

It's a hell of a lot better than it was, but yeah, I'm no fan.

[MrMadguy]

Can you explain, why Viridian Bog is bad? When players say, that some map is bad, they at least bring some arguments. Therma, Alpine and Crimson have terrible "King of Hill" type of gameplay. Polar and Alpine - are way too big, so they gimp Assault 'Mechs. Polar, Alpine, City and partially Forest (center is open, like at City) - lack cover, so they're too biased towards Snipe/LRM meta. So if you play Assault/Heavy brawler - you simply have nothing to do on this maps. Also all this maps lack variety of tactics, so they're played the same way again, again and again, cuz any deviation from standard tactic = suicide, which is extremely boring.

And Bog is actually good map - right size, good amount of cover, enough routes to provide variety of tactics. The only problem - it's imbalanced a little bit, cuz central hills have stairs only from one side. It's good, or at least isn't bad, and majority of players agrees with me:

So if you play some extremely Meta crap, that shouldn't even exist in this game and wouldn't exist with sized hardpoints, like ER-LL boat Light, so you need open maps to grief other players - then it's only your problem.

Also problem with streaks of same maps - isn't problem with players. It's problem with PGI's so called "RNG" - instead of providing random 4 maps for every vote, they are trying to force terrible ones. And when it's always something like Polar, Therma, Alpine, Bog or City, Therma, Bog, Forest over and over again - then players just have no other choice, but always vote for Bog.

Also don't hope, that blind fixed voting will favour random map rotation, as you like. Tricks, like changing you vote at last moment, just compensate the fact, that vote trolls can intentionally stack multipliers today. Yeah, with fixed voting we won't be able to change vote at last moment. But you won't be able to intentionally stack your multiplier too. So, situation will be even better. You will have to vote for maps, you want to bring, only - it will make stacking 10x slower.

So. It's called democracy - power of majority. You don't have vote multiplier, when you vote for your president. We don't need tyranny, i.e. power of minority, here, sorry. And don't tell us about tyranny of majority. When interests of different people are mutually exclusive - only power of majority is possible. So minority should know it's place. It isn't more important or special, only because it's minority. Majority shouldn't be punished to cater to whimsical, salty, whiny minority, just because they're "endangered species", so they need to be "put into the Red List".

Edited by MrMadguy, 03 March 2016 - 12:09 AM.

[Zolaz]

Wolfways, on 02 March 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

I'd gladly never have to play Viridian Bog, Frozen City (day and night), Mining Collective, HPG Manifold, and Crimson Strait again (I actually like Crimson except that all the fighting happens, as usual, where there is LRM cover. I hate that area even when I'm not using LRM's).
Polar is really the only good map (but could do with a couple more features) and the rest are...meh.

Oh, and all the CW maps suck big time

Rough playing an LRM boat. Maybe, you should play a mech that works on more maps? You might want to go onto Twitter where Russ can see your requests, that is probably easier than running something that works. By works, I mean something that isnt a waste of space because you cant play it.

[MrMadguy]

What else would you vote for in this case? Please note, that I haven't voted for best maps with my 10x multiplier, but I could have done it. Also I haven't used "Change vote at last moment" trick to prevent bad maps.




3 votes in a row - 2 Thermas, 3 Polars, 3 Forests. 2/3 of maps - are from top 5 worst ones. Don't you see a pattern here? Obvious manipulation.

Then one vote a little bit better - at least 2 best maps:

And then again...

Total crap:

It's not cherry picked screenshots - it's real current map rotation. And it happens for about a week already.

Also, yeah. Equipping LRMs - isn't bad. LRM boating and wanting LRM-favoring maps - is.

Edited by MrMadguy, 03 March 2016 - 04:50 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Zolaz, on 03 March 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

Rough playing an LRM boat. Maybe, you should play a mech that works on more maps? You might want to go onto Twitter where Russ can see your requests, that is probably easier than running something that works. By works, I mean something that isnt a waste of space because you cant play it.

"play a mech that works on more maps"
This makes sense, but it ignores the reality of the game. We have at our disposal 100s of types (variants) of mechs of which each can be customized dozens of different ways (or more). This encourages a lot of specialization of builds (for some of us it is an obsession to make each build distinct). I mean if you have 150 mechs it kind of sucks that you feel obligated when pugging to make all of them have a nice mix of all ranges of weapons and moderate speed just so you have something that can work on most maps.

This is a problem I have with voting (or at least when I get on a streak of bad runs). For example, I totally sympathize when you get Alpine Skirmish three matches in a row (or more) when you are trying to master a your AC/20 Mauler build. The answer to this problem should not be a choice between dumping those 2 AC/20s for a couple of AC/5s and installing a massive XL engine so that have the balanced speed and firepower of a 90 ton medium vs. being lucky enough to "win" the vote once or twice in the evening of a dozen matches, so that you get the chance to play on Crimson or Mining, which are the maps you had in mind when you built the mech in the first place. There ought to be a better way.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind map voting per se, but I do agree that the frequency and even the grouping of some maps is disproportionate and needs to be addressed (i.e. I should never have an evening, of say a dozen matches, where all I see is the three "terrible" maps and one "bad" map as the exclusive members of the rotation, yet that occurs A LOT).

Edited by Bud Crue, 03 March 2016 - 05:03 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Mr. MadGuy, while I appreciate your reasoning, your map classifications, from best to worst, are almost entirely backwards of how I see them... (I didn't make a pretty little graphic)

Excellent: Alpine Peaks (you said Terrible) and Crimson Straight (you said Bad) - these are good, open maps, good for me with LRMs. Alpine needs to have Moron Mountain reduced in size, and something needs to be done to encourage use of the rest of the map, as there are tons of places where tactics are actually useful. Crimson Straight I almost always have magically wonderful games on. I don't like that the platform is THE primary place to go, but in general I love to play on Crimson, and will jump on that map any time I get a shot.

Good: Caustic Valley (you said Neutral), Polar Highlands (you said Terrible), and River City (you said Bad) - River City would have found its way into my Excellent category, except it's REALLY hard to play that map with LRMs when, 9 times out of 10, initial placement makes it so you have to work that much harder to get between or over buildings. Polar Highlands is kill or be killed, there is no try, and it was designed by PGI to put to rest all of the bitching and complaining from the community about all of the maps with so much blockage and, guess what? It worked. Polar is a very good map, and would also be in my Excellent category were it not so amazingly easy for bad guys to pop up just anywhere and decimate my team nearly every single time we get into the map, and so many of my team are so busy hiding from damage it's difficult to get any of them to hold locks so I can actually help them kill the bad guys. As for Caustic, unless our team gets completely wrecked, and quickly, I always have a good game, there. I understand heat management, how to use my various modes of fire, and how to maneuver to keep away from bad guys.

Neutral: Canyon Network (you said Excellent), HPG Manifold (you said Good), Tourmaline Desert (you said Neutral, so we agree) - It's hard to hit people who use the piles for cover in Tourmaline, but I've found I can use those same piles to maneuver around to remove that advantage, and I like that. HPG Manifold is so open, and you have the under-dish portion that is a massive death trap, and a TON of idiots LOVE to go there. When the bad guys go under there, it gives me the opportunity to ignore them and go after their compatriots, and then work to draw them out, later. It happens less, these days, than it used to, but it's always good for an LRM boat when their opponents disappear underneath and I can get on top, or otherwise away from them. I'm neutral on Canyon, as it's a really beautifully designed map, but Lights can race-track around and get into my back armor, like the cowards they are, and there is little I can do about them, unless they're spotted by "team" mates.

Bad: Forest Colony (you said Bad, so we're in agreement), Frozen City (you said Good), and Terra Therma (you said Terrible) - Okay, the only reason I don't have Frozen City as the worst is because it's not, it's a well-designed map. My problem is that everyone wants to play that map all the time, because they don't have any heat management skills and want to be able to fire indiscriminately. That, to me, is not fun at all, it's just a bunch of children loading up every weapon they can for maximum damage, and they don't play the map tactically. It's not tactical to throw a temper-tantrum with your weapons, not a challenge. Fortunately, I've found a mostly decent way to keep myself living on that map and, more often than not, I prevail. Forest Colony is bad only because the problem we had with the original, smaller, Forest Colony is pretty much replicated in the new map. The arch in the middle of the map, closest to where the Base on that side of the map is, carries with it the same problem the cave did on the old map. Frankly, I think the original map should be re-designated and added back to the rotation, as I really did enjoy that map, and PGI failed to develop something that would remedy the problems everyone said the old map had, anyway. We need as many maps in the rotation as possible; the more maps there are, the more diversified play will be. Finally, everyone seems to hate Terra Therma and, I have to admit, the caldera in the middle is a real problem for an LRM boat driver, but it's a GREAT tactical boon to those who prefer direct-fire weaponry. It is this map that prompts me to say map and mode selection need to come, first, and then between one and five minutes set aside for opposing teams to select the 'Mechs they're going to drive. However, I don't hate Terra Therma, because I've examined that map, in detail, and there are a half-dozen places that would be magnificent for tactical combat, three of which you only see when you play Conquest.

Terrible: Mining Collective (you said Good) and Viridian Bog (you said Neutral) - While I will admit that Mining Collective is an amazing challenge, when we were told that it was going to be terrible for LRMs, we weren't kidding. Even if my own "team" is able to lock down the bad guys, unless they're in the open it takes an average of 45 seconds to get into a position where my missile fire will actually many something. I love being able to support my team, but when the morons starburst all over the place, failing to work together as a team, Mining Collective becomes absolutely unforgiving. As for Viridian Bog... I do NOT want this map to go away, but I DO want the rotation on this crappy little obstructionist dragon-holding bog to slow down. I want the two maps that have been removed to be re-instated, and I want the FW maps to be added to the solo queue, and I want ALL maps added to the FW queue, and I want all of these maps to have an equal rotation, so I'm not seeing Viridian frackin' Bog for seven games out of ten.

We see things differently, I'm afraid.

[SplashDown]

@OP i feel you're pain...im sick of getting the same maps over in over....feels just like the old system to me but with a vote.
And i allmost never get to play the maps i enjoy..PLUS becuz i cant turn off game modes any more i keep getting stuck playing assault where all any-1 does it race to cap the base..its dull,,its boring and i for one am done participating in those modes.
Assaul;t mode=sissy mode.

P.S my time is valuble to me and i wont waist it in pointless assault mode anymore

[MrMadguy]

Kay Wolf, on 03 March 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

<cut>

We see things differently, I'm afraid.

Look, your rank is way too subjective - you like LRMs, so you want maps, that suit your tactics the most. My rank is objective: I have 70 'Mechs and all of them are different. So I can compare, how every map is played in almost every possible build in this game. And I've been doing it for thousands of matches already.

Following criteria are used to rank maps:
1) Variation of tactics
2) How balanced spawns/sides of map are
3) Imbalance towards some weight classes
4) Imbalance towards some builds
5) Imbalance towards some Meta
6) Time is wasted on that map in non-playing activities

What isn't taken into account:
1) Visibility - not knowing, how to use H and N buttons - is your problem
2) Terrain - not knowing, how to properly move, navigate and choose routes - is your problem
3) Temperature - not knowing, how to manage your heat - is your problem
4) FPS - weak computer is your problem
5) Subjective preferences - weapon preferences, tactic preferences, etc.

What I can say: yeah, the idea of having different maps in this game - is good, cuz there should be maps, that suit your build, tactic and playstyle, and there should be maps, that don't - so all players will be even. But it's just idea. The reality is different. In reality there are builds, that are good for any map. So some maps are balanced and some are biased towards some Meta. And it causes imbalance between players, who use universal builds, and players, who don't. So players were divided into two camps: 1) Players, who say "Screw it, adapt and improve - i.e.throw MechLab out of the window and build universal builds only - boat Gausses/ER-LLs/LRMs" 2) Players, who say "MechLab, different weapons and 'Mech variants exist in this game for reason - this game isn't generic shooter, so building diverse 'Mechs is essential part of it's gameplay - we want to play, how we want, not the way, that is dictated by Meta".

And it looks like first category - is minority and second - is majority. And this majority have only one way to "balance" this game, at least till 'Mech selection for every map won't be implemented - to avoid Meta-biased maps.

My advice: try to play brawler build and you'll see, how your preferences will change.

Edited by MrMadguy, 03 March 2016 - 08:45 AM.

[B0oN]

OP ?

Weighting is a possible answer .

As to which ends the wheighting happens ? Gotta ask PGI .

[Sader325]

**** CANYON NETWORK

[Sandpit]

Rad Hanzo, on 03 March 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

OP ?

Weighting is a possible answer .

As to which ends the wheighting happens ? Gotta ask PGI .

Russ explained this in the townhall actually

Maps are weighted on their rotation actually. More chosen maps lose weight and appear in map choices less. Less chosen maps appear more often.

It's similar to how Black Ops 2 did it. It helps prevent maps from being chosen several times in a row because once a map is chosen it will begin to appear in the selection choices less often.

[Bilbo]

Sandpit, on 03 March 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Russ explained this in the townhall actually

Maps are weighted on their rotation actually. More chosen maps lose weight and appear in map choices less. Less chosen maps appear more often.

It's similar to how Black Ops 2 did it. It helps prevent maps from being chosen several times in a row because once a map is chosen it will begin to appear in the selection choices less often.

It's supposed to work that way, but I've been the poor sod that gets the same map three or four times in a row several times a night enough to know that it really isn't working.