45 replies to this topic

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Its been bothering me for quite some time how easy it is to make a "great" C-LRM boat, but how difficult are IS LRM boats in comparison.

Clan LRM boats are viable at medium to close range, because of no minimum range, the ease of carrying much stronger direct weaponry easier, and inherent C.A.S.E. in Clan mechs.

while IS LRM is better on paper in damage numbers, C-LRM is lighter, has more focused missile volleys wasting MUCH less of the damage, resulting in easily observable better performance of the system... while IS LRM needs to either stick to LRM 5 or 10, or strictly rely on NARC and/or TAG to be anywhere near effective - this was a harsh wake-up call for me after i tried using LRM15 (and for testing sake LRM20) on the Mauler-1R

this is proving difficult to the IS LRM user that wants to play aggressively, get his own locks and directly support his teammates - because of the need to maintain more distance and take wider routes to avoid minimum range
especially if carrying a similarly heavy loadout to a Clan mech means the IS version is slower, and has much greater potential for ammo explosions (especially troublesome with XL engines)

compensating for massive spread on higher tonnage IS launchers by mounting a number of smaller launchers is punishing - as they are less tonnage efficient, especially with Artemis (which you should have for direct fire viability)


Something should be done to make IS LRM comparable to C-LRM - so they can enjoy the same ability to directly support their team instead of being screamed out of the field. Most notably the spread and minimum range. A direct fire ability (with Artemis atleast) should be possible.

Subsequently, for the same reason - as MANY have pointed out in these last few days - it seems LRMs in general could use a minor mechanics overhaul to make them more... competitive, to use the buzz word - more comparable in effectivenes (not function) to standard weapons - without making them overpowered obviously.

This i would suggest increasing their speed and either limiting the incoming missile warning to a set range, or tying it with a presence of an AMS system.
Radar Deprivation module also needs to be brought down to be a direct counter to Target Decay.

Let me know what you think, discuss, and lets try to not set this one on fire too, heh?

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 03 March 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[Inveramsay]

Well, here we go again. My experience is that you need about twice as many c lurms as is to be effective.

As someone who experienced lurmageddon I would think it is hard to make viable in competitive play without them being vault over powered in the underhive

[Tyler Valentine]

You should probably check out the Awesome 8R...

[S 0 L E N Y A]

ehhh. I think it is a wash when you take into account quirks, and the advantages and disadvantages of cluster fire vs stream fire LRMS.

My LRM15 Mauler can crack over 1k dmg so easily I barely play it anymore.
Same goes for my LRM15 WarHawk.

The Mauler can unload its primary weapon much quicker than the Warhawk.
The Warhawk is more mobile and has much more viable 2ndary weapons.

I could take my pick or flip coin; I end up in the same place in the end.

[Monkey Lover]

Super quirked medium IS mechs are the only lrm boats you should ever take into a game. All other mechs are a waste of tonnage. Other than maybe the Jenner 2c with 6x5lrm.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 03 March 2016 - 01:57 PM.

[LordNothing]

i certainly prefer is for big volley attacks and clan for streaming attacks. is can kind of emulate the streaming attack with 5+ lrm5s.

then you got the ams factor. nothing beats a big volley for defeating ams. streaming attacks usually get eaten alive. i figure the is streaming attack would be a little more resilient in the face of ams because of the 5 missile clusters, but still easily defeated with 2 or more ams systems.

streamers seem to work better at skirmisher range, mostly because their heat is far more managable. a big volley or two can red line you instantly and that is not desirable inside 400 meters. if you have four lrm15s its time to start chain firing. you only need to group fire specifically for overwhelming ams systems.

ranged indirect firing tends to favor streams too, so you can have less missiles in the air when your crosshair stops turning red (enemy found cover). on the other hand if you are using the shoot and scoot method, you can actually land a huge salvo on a mech and give it very little time to seek cover, and when it does you have already moved on. its a great way to keep heads down, waste the enemy's time, and spread them out a bit more.

i actually like that the systems are different. each config has its own unique advantages and disadvantages.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 March 2016 - 02:04 PM.

[Roadkill]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 03 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

This i would suggest increasing their speed and either limiting the incoming missile warning to a set range, or tying it with a presence of an AMS system.

I really don't think LRMs need any more speed, though a slight increase might be okay. However, if you also tie the incoming missile warning to AMS use then I really don't think they need a speed increase. The only real reason they need more speed right now is to help with long range fire, and that help is only needed because people are warned whenever someone shoots missiles at them. Take away that warning and you no longer need the speed increase.

Thunderbird Anthares, on 03 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Radar Deprivation module also needs to be brought down to be a direct counter to Target Decay.

That would make Radar Derp less useful.

As it stands now, Radar Derp counters the normal target decay time. It does not affect the Advanced Target Decay module at all.

This means that Radar Derp is always useful (when facing any enemy using LRMs/SSRMs). Your suggestion would make Radar Derp useless unless the enemy was also equipped with Advanced Target Decay. Granted, most missile users are using ATD, but your suggestion would still have a (slight) negative effect.

It might have an interesting side effect, though. Right now, if you're bringing LRMs you're also bringing ATD. It would be silly not to. With your change, some people might not bring ATD under the assumption that even fewer people would be running Radar Derp. (Not that many people use Radar Derp as it is because you really don't need it... avoiding LRMs is already pretty simple.)

[The Lobsters]

!?!

You know IS have the two hands down most effective LRM boats in the game. Like 25% better, and that's discounting the assaults. The best clans can do is match the teir 2 IS LRM mechs. IS LRM mediums do as good as clan LRM heavys.

[Roadkill]

The Lobsters, on 03 March 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

You know IS have the two hands down most effective LRM boats in the game.

That's because of quirks, not because IS LRMs are actually better than Clan LRMs.

Unquirked Clan LRMs are better than unquirked IS LRMs. Proper design would balance the weapons first, then and ONLY then use quirks to balance the chassis.

[FupDup]

I think that a higher priority is figuring out how to un-bork LRMs in general so that they aren't so heavily dependent on the behavior of their team and the enemy team.

When that's taken care of, then we can start worrying about how to make IS vs Clam Lurms work.

[Roadkill]

FupDup, on 03 March 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

I think that a higher priority is figuring out how to un-bork LRMs in general so that they aren't so heavily dependent on the behavior of their team and the enemy team.

I agree, but I'm not sure how to do that.

I suspect that the main reason LRMs are more dependent on the target's skill than on the firer's skill is twofold:

1) Locks. Yes, there's other skill involved in setting up a good LRM volley, but once fired they're on a rail as long as you maintain your lock. It's not that difficult to maintain a lock while the missiles are in flight, so it's the target's skill at avoiding a missile volley that matters. A lot of that revolves around not getting shot at in the first place, which means that people who do get shot at probably aren't all that skilled at avoiding them once they're in flight.

2) Time-to-target. AKA speed. LRMs are the slowest weapons in the game. They're so slow that their full range isn't even all that useful most of the time. But what that speed really does is give the target time to react and avoid the incoming missiles, so once again the target's skill (at avoiding the volley) is more important than the firer's ability to put 'em in the air in the first place.

Problems:

1) Lock-on is very flavor correct for LRMs, so removing it would be problematic.

2) Speeding up missiles would change the balance of skill to be more in favor of the firer (because it would reduce the target's ability to react), but that might cause more problems than it solves. Bads will be bad, and faster missiles will just make it that much easier to pound them into dust.

Solutions:
(Note: not mine. Many people have suggested these over and over and over.)

A.) Allow instant lock-on if you have LOS, and flatten the trajectory of missiles fired with LOS. However, lock-on should break immediately when LOS is lost. (No more Radar Derp or ATD.)
B.) Require Narc or Tag for indirect fire. Not just teammate in LOS like we have now, but actual use of a supporting technology to use indirect fire. I might also increase the arc for indirect fire as well since it would require a spotter. If you're getting rained on, find the spotter. Tag should be invisible unless using night vision.
C.) If both A and B are are implemented, then you can speed up LRMs a bit to make them more competitive with direct fire weapons.

[Revis Volek]

I have run my Catapult c1 with two LRM 15w/ ART, 3 Medium Lasers and TAG for over 2 years.

It does just fine, and actually i find the opposite, IS LRMS are better IMO because they glob fire, the stream fire stuff is lame and isnt any more accurate really.

Last night i had so much fun and managed to get a few tears out of it, guy in his DWF walking out in the open got Slaughterd by LRMS from me and another Catapult and proceeded to cry about it until he rage quit.


IS LRMS are better then Clan IMO...

[Wolfways]

While there are a few things that could make LRM's better their biggest problem is the maps. Pgi decided to think small and instead of creating big battlefields to fight on they made small arenas (can't believe they are going even smaller for Solaris ) with cover everywhere which players can quickly hide behind.

Nearby cover + slow projectile + warning message = miss.

I don't see pgi changing their map style so the best thing for LRM's is to remove the incoming missiles warning. At least then the first salvo might hit before the target retreats behind cover, although many players will still hide between shots anyway.
A speed increase would help, but you can only increase missile speed so far before it looks weird.

Imo:
Increase speed a bit.
Remove incoming missiles warning (or attach to AMS if people want to keep it so badly).
While I think Radar derp should go I realise there are players who feel they need it, so maybe it should stay.
I think ATD should stay as it is most likely only used by LRM boats anyway, while mechs with a launcher or two probably won't use it, and with the amount of cover on the maps LRM's would be almost useless without ATD.

LRM's also need their spread and cooldown changed so that the larger launchers are better than the smaller versions.

As for indirect fire... I've said many times that it doesn't bother me but I know others really dislike it being so easy so I'd be fine with indirect fire only be viable through the use of UAV, NARC, or TAG. More team coordination is always a better thing (even if I do drop 90% solo ).

Edit: Forgot to say that imo LRM's should also be fire and forget. Long face time during missile flight is a killer, and is probably why some of the LRM users that sit back and fire (the ones most players complain about) don't want to get face to face with the enemy.
If you have missiles in flight and get shot at you have a choice. Stay on target and maybe die, or lose the lock and those missiles you have already fired (as if LRM's didn't waste enough ammo ).

Edited by Wolfways, 03 March 2016 - 05:12 PM.

[Malachy Karrde]

I don't agree that inner sphere lrm boats are better. I've tried both extensively and found that I get more kills and do more damage overall with clan lrms. May be my play style or whatever, but is lrm boats do not perform half as well for me. I own about every mech in game so have tried em all lol.

[Revis Volek]

Wolfways, on 03 March 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

While there are a few things that could make LRM's better their biggest problem is the maps. Pgi decided to think small and instead of creating big battlefields to fight on they made small arenas (can't believe they are going even smaller for Solaris ) with cover everywhere which players can quickly hide behind.

Nearby cover + slow projectile + warning message = miss.

I don't see pgi changing their map style so the best thing for LRM's is to remove the incoming missiles warning. At least then the first salvo might hit before the target retreats behind cover, although many players will still hide between shots anyway.
A speed increase would help, but you can only increase missile speed so far before it looks weird.

Imo:
Increase speed a bit.
Remove incoming missiles warning (or attach to AMS if people want to keep it so badly).
While I think Radar derp should go I realise there are players who feel they need it, so maybe it should stay.
I think ATD should stay as it is most likely only used by LRM boats anyway, while mechs with a launcher or two probably won't use it, and with the amount of cover on the maps LRM's would be almost useless without ATD.

LRM's also need their spread and cooldown changed so that the larger launchers are better than the smaller versions.

As for indirect fire... I've said many times that it doesn't bother me but I know others really dislike it being so easy so I'd be fine with indirect fire only be viable through the use of UAV, NARC, or TAG. More team coordination is always a better thing (even if I do drop 90% solo ).

I dont think you should get the INCOMING MISSILE warning unless you have AMS, would make AMS very important for some and would make LRMS a bit better without changing much at all.


But i also agree they need a slight speed buff. The 20% increase on the c1 makes them very, very easy to use when coupled with TAG and other things cutting down on lock time.

[Wolfways]

Malachy Karrde, on 03 March 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

I don't agree that inner sphere lrm boats are better. I've tried both extensively and found that I get more kills and do more damage overall with clan lrms. May be my play style or whatever, but is lrm boats do not perform half as well for me. I own about every mech in game so have tried em all lol.

The only reason clan LRM's do better (sometimes) is because the majority of players (even those who complain about LRM's) prefer to take more firepower over AMS.
AMS takes down clan missiles far better than IS salvos.

[Lyoto Machida]

Tyler Valentine, on 03 March 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

You should probably check out the Awesome 8R...

Roadkill, on 03 March 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

That's because of quirks, not because IS LRMs are actually better than Clan LRMs.

Unquirked Clan LRMs are better than unquirked IS LRMs. Proper design would balance the weapons first, then and ONLY then use quirks to balance the chassis.

Remove ghost heat from LRMs and watch the 8R shine again.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Roadkill, on 03 March 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Solutions:
(Note: not mine. Many people have suggested these over and over and over.)

A.) Allow instant lock-on if you have LOS, and flatten the trajectory of missiles fired with LOS. However, lock-on should break immediately when LOS is lost. (No more Radar Derp or ATD.)
B.) Require Narc or Tag for indirect fire. Not just teammate in LOS like we have now, but actual use of a supporting technology to use indirect fire. I might also increase the arc for indirect fire as well since it would require a spotter. If you're getting rained on, find the spotter. Tag should be invisible unless using night vision.
C.) If both A and B are are implemented, then you can speed up LRMs a bit to make them more competitive with direct fire weapons.

Or just leave the target mechanic as is and take away the auto-C3 and require making a meaningful choice to take C3 in order to share info and couple that with an overhaul of the IW system (i.e., introduce active/passive sensor and other meaningful choice feature to IW).

[El Bandito]

Tyler Valentine, on 03 March 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

You should probably check out the Awesome 8R...

Quirks do not make the weapon. Otherwise, we would think PPCs are good weapon just cause some mechs have 50% velocity quirks of it. Quirkless, it is pretty meh.

Lyoto Machida, on 03 March 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Remove ghost heat from LRMs and watch the 8R shine again.

If they remove Ghost Heat as well as quirks, the Stalker-5M will shine the most. I still miss the days when I could combine LRM5s with larger launchers without incurring GH.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 March 2016 - 08:18 PM.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

in my opinion, Stalker-5M is still the best IS heavy LRM fire support mech, with KTO-18 the best light counterpart... but thats my own opinion

Indeed - you have to consider the BASE weapon... quirks do a lot, but quirks are not the measurement of the overall usefulness of the weapon


C-LRM 20 you can put on anything with a missile slot and it works as advertised...

IS LRM 20 you put on anything with a missile slot, and it takes DOUBLE the weight (and one more slot) and the shot is a huge blob of missiles out of which some just automatically miss, and the rest of them attempt to evenly cover the entire mech... so in addition to that, you "need" a TAG and/or NARC to even approach the effect on target Clan LRMs have... which means even playing differently... or stick to the even more tonnage inefficient LRM 5 or 10, in which case using a TAG or NARC is not strictly needed, but it still helps a whole damn lot

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 03 March 2016 - 11:04 PM.