416 replies to this topic

[Lupis Volk]

Mech The Dane, on 25 March 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

Oops, sorry. Those 'mechs will do better in bigger engines. Run what you got for now and when you get the chance upgrade the engine.

Okay. They are only 1-2 versions lower.

[PUFNSTUF]

For the advanced can a warhammer be subbed for the BK? Or do a dual Warhammer, dual quickdraw drop deck?

[Jarl Dane]

PUFNSTUF, on 26 March 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

For the advanced can a warhammer be subbed for the BK? Or do a dual Warhammer, dual quickdraw drop deck?

No. A Warhammer isn't terrible but it is out-classed by the BLK and GHR.
I think I may have made things a little obscure. I've been trying to help people reach some equivalents (Raintroopers), but for the Advanced/Stormtrooper deck you need the 'Mechs listed with the builds listed.

No substitutions, no lower engines, no AMS builds etc.
Right now at this stage we really need just need to all be on the same page.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 26 March 2016 - 07:03 AM.

[PUFNSTUF]

Mech The Dane, on 26 March 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

No. A Warhammer isn't terrible but it is out-classed by the BLK and GHR. I think I may have made things a little obscure. I've been trying to help people reach some equivalents (Raintroopers), but for the Advanced/Stormtrooper deck you need the 'Mechs listed with the builds listed. No substitutions, no lower engines, no AMS builds etc. Right now at this stage we really need just need to all be on the same page.

Alright good to know!

[MischiefSC]

Part of the effectiveness is homogeneity. Being interchangeable and identical to the enemy buggers up focus fire and trying to focus weak points. Plus there's no question of who can do what. Everyone has the same potential. The whole wave can jump X gate, will get to C4 at the same time, has the same engagement range.

Even survival time is similar. Dying together means respawning together.

Concepts like this are what separates a mob from an army. Without a massive merc influx FRR gets rolled by the Clan hordes every restart. CW 3 won't be different unless FRR bulks up and gets all mecha-swole. This is a really solid idea that rocked in proof-of-concept. Vikings rocked in part because they were more organized than the cultures they raided and conquered.

FRR is in a uniquely hard position. It will need to take steps above and beyond everyone else if it wants to succeed in CW3, especially if it's as good as we hope and people flood back in.

Edited by MischiefSC, 26 March 2016 - 06:09 PM.

[Starbomber109]

Mech The Dane, on 07 March 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

If you want, sure, but be aware the Qucikdraws have similar alphas to the Thunderbolts and are less tanky. They are less beginner friendly, but, at this moment, some of the best mechs in the game - so maybe it'll work for you.

I have a short update on that note, I now have 2 of the 3 quickdraws and I am having a much better time than I was in the 9SE(C). I was right, the quickdraw does have a faster torso twist than the Thunderbolt, it's also more mobile in general. So...maybe it will work out, only time will tell though. EDIT;

Edited by Starbomber109, 27 March 2016 - 07:33 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Can we adjust the 4H build so it's supported by the missile tube counts on that mech.

The weenie second volley irks my optimization OCD to no end, simply switching to ASRM4 instead of SRM6 would fix the issue with no other changes to the build.

I would also suggest allowing space rich vikings to use a second 4H for the 3LPL quickie build as well, since it's actually better at it quirk wise and otherwise exactly the same.

Edited by Sjorpha, 02 April 2016 - 04:25 AM.

[SuperAtomicAirplane]

The 4G has better energy cool-down and heat gen.

The 4H has better duration and range.

I think the 4G is better suited to LPL.

[DaemonWulfe]

The 4H brawler build is best kept as is for now. It shines the best with an entire wave diving into a brawl at once. The ASRM4 build cycles fast enough and cool enough to allow it to pump out considerable damage. We've found they make excellent mechs for trench fighting, or fighting on maps where mechs can get tangled in terrain easier. The agility of the 4H makes it feel like a medium, and it's not too difficult to out-maneuver a brawler Timber, and will definitely run cooler. I've found the SRM 4H brawler to be very good at knocking the legs out from under lights pretty quick too. Best part is, if anything ever shuts down in front of you, easy money shot, one alpha coring on all but the noobiest of noobs that rear load armor.

Besides, having the two distinctly different builds allows for more flexibility when deploying tactics from one wave to the next. You might want to start a defense on a ranged map with ranged mechs, and drop fast brawlers to reinforce if the enemy team manages to set up for an extended stay in your base. The 4H makes an excellent shock mech, and would be a welcome sight if your ranged mechs get overtaken and wiped fast. An alternative, starting with a solid, aggressive brawl and then dropping mid-ranged LPL wave after you've crushed through the first two waves. Decent mid-temp map? Start with a wave of BKs, barfing lasers through the first two waves and coming back with any of three different QKDs depending on how you want to engage, short, mid, or long, depending on the map, the ambient temperature, and the enemy.

Edited by DaemonWulfe, 02 April 2016 - 12:07 PM.

[Val_Z]

Sjorpha, on 02 April 2016 - 04:24 AM, said:

Can we adjust the 4H build so it's supported by the missile tube counts on that mech.

The weenie second volley irks my optimization OCD to no end, simply switching to ASRM4 instead of SRM6 would fix the issue with no other changes to the build.

I would also suggest allowing space rich vikings to use a second 4H for the 3LPL quickie build as well, since it's actually better at it quirk wise and otherwise exactly the same.

Hey,

For starters, i think Daemon mostly misunderstood your post. He really shouldn't be replying on behalf of ISEN for this kind of stuff anyway. But guess what? He is under the assumption that the 4H runs SRM4A's, because they do, even going back and watching some of MtD's videos. That build in the initial post needs to be corrected.

Nice catch.

Also, as Dane said, the 4H is an experiment, and he has played with MPL instead of ML too. That is the mech that is most open to discussion and review, and will evolve as more stormtrooper nights are called.

Now, as for the 4H vs the 4G for LPL. This kinda comes down to what you want to acheive, and somewhat personal taste. I certainly don't think its better generally quirk wise, although I think that in some scenarios the extra range on the 4H (like when solo Q'ing) makes it possibly preferable.

The better accel/decel on the 4G makes it better for poking corners. LPL already have a very short beam duration, so even with the 4H's duration quirk, you are only saving .06 of a second. If we were using ER LL (or even ML to an extent) i would agree that reducing beam duration has some merit. But with such a short duration already, i don't think you gain much advantage, for what you are giving up.

The 4G setup is meant for a 12 man scenario, with a strong drop caller, who knows the mechs and their effective ranges. I don't think a 40m range advantage in that case really matters much. 440m range isn't enough to beat clan LPL range so you still need to close.

What the 4G does have is better weapon cooldown and beat heat gen quirks for the 3LPL. This really allows the DPS of the mech to shine, to kill things faster and for longer. You can negate this with the 4H by dropping engine down and adding heatsinks, but again, for our 12 man scenario where this is to be applied we decided that speed was more important.

In my opinion the 4G is still the better LPL boat in almost all scenarios. If you would like to discuss it further please hit me up in TS!

P.S. By allowing exceptions, it becomes difficult to manage, as everyone thinks some sort of exception applies to them, and then what was once a uniform deck, becomes a deck with variations in every direction, and can't achieve its purpose as easily or effectively. So initially for this proof of concept in the FRR we need to be a bit stricter, and then as it proves its worth, and other 'uniform' decks become available (like a beserker deck), i am sure variations and exceptions will become more common place.

[Jarl Dane]

GHoppa, on 02 April 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

He is under the assumption that the 4H runs SRM4A's, because they do, even going back and watching some of MtD's videos. That build in the initial post needs to be corrected.

Aye, the original 4H build was taken from MetaMech's website. I figured using GMan's build while I personally tested my own was a safe bet. I feel pretty confident that GMan's 4H build isn't that great so we'll switch over to one that has been extensively tested.

This 4H Build.

The OP has been edited to include that now, along with an alternate Flamer build.
I'd like to say when the deck was first devised the 4H SRM brawling build was always considered the 'weakest' of the deck. Lots of questions surrounding it, and in solo play it's the sort of 'mech that will often punish a player. This is all understandable, it isn't the sort of 'mech that can normally do 1000+ damage and still have some fight left in it..too brawly and fragile.

BUT - in after a couple Stormtrooper Nights I feel confident saying that this is actually the 2nd most powerful mech in the deck, behind the Black Knight. Alone, it isn't much to look at it, but a pack of 10-12 of these babies swarming an enemy has an astounding impact. Anyone who has dropped with us can attest to this.. they really shine in that setting.

We've also done some experimenting with a Flame variant - Flamers are actually becoming a big deal and we're even seeing them in comp matches now. They did not fail to impress us in our Stormtrooper drops either.

[Sjorpha]

For the record, I wasn't arguing against the 4H brawler being in the deck, just for changing the srm6 to srm4 in the OP.

I personally like this build a lot: 4mpl, 3srm4, xl350 , since it gives you the punchy mpl+srm combined with 100+ kph. But obviously I'll go with whatever's the decided build is when running stormtrooper drops.

The arguments for the 4g as the 3lpl mech makes sense.

Edited by Sjorpha, 03 April 2016 - 04:20 AM.

[ThomasAH]

Oops, I submitted an ST deck proof, but misread the requirements: I submitted 3 TDR + 1 BJ (with a 4th TDR visible in the screenshot), because it was listed first in the initial post. I have all non-hero QKD/BL/GHR mastered, so I'll provide a new screenshot soon.

But I want to say that this is a great idea! Too often I have seen matches with too varying speeds and mismatched loadouts, so this could make things easier to organize.

[Benjamin Kirsch]

So I've been running the Stormtrooper deck quite a bit (well as much as I can since Davion is so dead...). I already was running a similar variation, but I dropped the C-Bills and reconfigured my mechs to the exact configurations listed here so as to give it a valid shake. Really like it, the only modification I ended up making is to the 4H (after playing it with the original 4 ML + 3 SRM6 build). Reading here it looks like it's gone through some changes anyways, just wondering if it's acceptable to run the 4 ML + 3 ASRM4 build (basically the original build with the SRM6s directly swapped out for ASRM4)? I'm finding this build is quite good as the lesser spread makes it easier to focus components down. Also the cooldown syncs up better with the medium lasers.

Otherwise the only other issue I've had is dealing with the left side asymmetric builds for the BLK and 5K, as I'm usually a right side peaker, so it's taken some time to retrain that muscle memory.

Performance wise, I dropped with a 3 man group in CW, 2 of us had full Stormtrooper deck's, and the other player was playing his for the first time. His deck was only basiced and he still managed to be #2 damage dealer on our team with almost 1800 damage done. I almost managed 2K, and have broken 2K with this deck before.

I look forward to when we are back in the FRR and I can participate in Stormtrooper nights!

[Michal R]

Can I use BL 7?
BL 6 version don't have duration quirk.
And about QKD, can I use 3 LPL on each od them?

[Tarogato]

Michal R, on 05 April 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

Can I use BL 7?
BL 6 version don't have duration quirk.

Neither does the BL-7-KNT. I don't understand your question. Maybe you meant the BL-7-KNT-L? IMO it's better... I'm not sure why Dane chose the -6.

[Michal R]

I think you understand, because you answered at it
And yes I thinking about 7 L.
IMO it's better option, becouse you have instant DMG on enemy mech.

[nehebkau]

Any desire to build some map-specific drop decks? I have different decks for several of the maps (like dakka for sulphur and vitric) -- and figuring out some optimized builds for different maps will only make us more effective.

[Jarl Dane]

Once we have 50 people with the tag we'll open up a few more dropdeck variants.

We're at 36 presently.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 05 April 2016 - 09:31 AM.

[McGrizzled]

I was taking a CW break until CW3 comes out, but I actually have the QKDs and that GHR already. I may have to give it a go, lol.