416 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

KinLuu, on 10 January 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

The Griffin-3Ms only real advantage over the Griffin-2N is its ability to run with a full shield side. If you run it with a full shield side, not only can you protect all your weapons during the initial charge, it also gives the mech a lot of survivability for a medium mech, if you twist away after each shot.

If you run it with a XL, you might as well bring a 2N.

The 3M has much more structure quirks, very relevant for a brawler, that is the main reason to take the 3M over the 2N. Corner poking advantage also perhaps. Deadsiding with the 3M isn't really a thing as far as I know, it's generally better to be fast with griffins I think, at least in faction play where dying isn't a big deal as long as you do your damage for that wave.

Edited by Sjorpha, 11 January 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Yiryi-Sa, on 10 January 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

How often do the Tier 1 brawling, KungsArmé mechs appear in CW drops? I'm fairly close to building a deck of mostly brawlers, with a mix of Thunderbolts, Centurions and Shadow Hawks.

I've tried GHRs and WHRs, but I feel like it was a chore to use them. Would the Catapult K2 make a decent mid-range replacement (say fitted out with twin AC10s and 4 MLs?). If not, I'll look into the recommended Tier 2 Thunderbolt and Rifleman builds.

I would say the pure super close range brawlers require that you have a group planning beforehand to brawl. Your general purpose FP deck should be midrange so you don't risk becoming dead weight if the plan isn't to brawl.

[KinLuu]

Sjorpha, on 11 January 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

The 3M has much more structure quirks, very relevant for a brawler, that is the main reason to take the 3M over the 2N. Corner poking advantage also perhaps. Deadsiding with the 3M isn't really a thing as far as I know, it's generally better to be fast with griffins I think, at least in faction play where dying isn't a big deal as long as you do your damage for that wave.

Beeing fast is less important, if there are Hunchbacks around - those are hardcapped to a 275 anyways. Because the push is most effective, if everyone arrives at roughly the same time.

[Starbomber109]

Realistically, the difference between standard and XL is about 1 to 2 extra alpha strikes you can eat from enemy mechs. In 12 v 12 that might not matter as much, unless it's a map/mode that requires more speed. I think the difference tends to matter a lot more in scouting mode where you're taking less aggregate firepower and surviving for a few more seconds can make a difference. That's my take on it anyways.

[BoldricKent]

Hm, with armor buff of 21 for all PHX models, they got 49 armor on arms, while side torsos have 44, its true there is
a structure difference in components 14/22, heck arms get bigger structure quirks the side torsos 7/6, so difference is down to 7.
Thing is, there are no 45-55 toners that have such high engine cap and JJ to boot (maybe WVRs, but 10 more tons, does hit the speed hard ). I can understand favoritism of CDA due to good hit boxes, high mounted weapon slots, still i think PHX should be a strong contender for flanking mech.

15 % is a general heat generation quirks, extra 5 cant outmatch basic heat difference between SPL and ML, also 4 of those are in arms, low mounted. Reason why i have weapon group that ties 2srms with head mounted laser, for lesser exposure. I agree
extra range will always give you more breathing space. In close brawl SPLs outperform ML by a mile.

I think drops should be build with same mobility standard at least on lance level and be matching through waves. At least from my experience 4.1 FW really emphasis speed and mobile line over the rather static nature of former invasion mode, Clan have
much greater coherence of that (locked engines) with much higher average speed. It calls for unification of speed in classes to respond.

[Tarogato]

Yiryi-Sa, on 10 January 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

How often do the Tier 1 brawling, KungsArmé mechs appear in CW drops? I'm fairly close to building a deck of mostly brawlers, with a mix of Thunderbolts, Centurions and Shadow Hawks.

I've tried GHRs and WHRs, but I feel like it was a chore to use them. Would the Catapult K2 make a decent mid-range replacement (say fitted out with twin AC10s and 4 MLs?). If not, I'll look into the recommended Tier 2 Thunderbolt and Rifleman builds.

As of now, if you see an ISEN leading a CW drop, expect there to be one medium brawler requested in the deck, and the rest to be LPL spam with a hint of LL. I can't speak for what other units do.

For the K2 I would recommend 2x UAC5 + 2x LPL. I can't remember the engine and ammo off hand or if I even have it on the sheet, but that build will perform fairly well.

BoldricKent, on 11 January 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

also 4 of those are in arms, low mounted. Reason why i have weapon group that ties 2srms with head mounted laser, for lesser exposure. I agree

If you're concerned about low mounts in a -4SP, then you brought the wrong mech for the job. The -4SP is a mech that doesn't give a rat's *** about peeking or exposure - it's job is to get in the enemies face, deal damage, and tank damage. If you're not doing that, then you're not abusing its strengths. (keep in mind, all bets are off if you aren't coordinated with a large group)

KinLuu, on 11 January 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

Beeing fast is less important, if there are Hunchbacks around - those are hardcapped to a 275 anyways. Because the push is most effective, if everyone arrives at roughly the same time.

Actually yes, the speed is rather important. If for instance you have the tanky HBK-4SPs, you'll went them leading the charge. If the rest of the mechs in the company are not fast enough to overtake the -4SPs, then the -4SPs will die on their own in the front. They should be just about the slowest mech on the field if you're doing an organised medium brawl.

Edited by Tarogato, 11 January 2017 - 07:20 PM.

[KinLuu]

It seems we have different ideas about this question.

I am sure both ways are viable, so it is no big deal.

[goatreich]

Risking making an *** of myself but is there a good Victor build for FW? It has nice mobility and now sports Atlas class armour,main weakness being dependance on XL engines it's a shame to waste an iconic mech. Thoughts?

[Starbomber109]

goatreich, on 12 January 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

Risking making an *** of myself but is there a good Victor build for FW? It has nice mobility and now sports Atlas class armour,main weakness being dependance on XL engines it's a shame to waste an iconic mech. Thoughts?

The short answer: Not really

The long answer: That mech has no builds that I can find that seem to work with the 'speed limit' most of us like to have for FW (which tends to be about 70 kph.) However, the Victor can get to that speed pretty easy, the trouble is the lack of hardpoints. VTR-9K <-That's the best I could come up with, as you can see, it lacks amo for the Gauss Rifle (20 shots is low). Maybe I could upgrade to Ferro....but that eats up all my open slots then I can't fit ANY amo. Maybe I could drop the engine down....which is probably what I would do if I was dead set on running it.

Granted, the Victor is fast, and the armor buffs made it slightly tougher, but it will always have the problem of being undergunned compared to it's competitors at 75 tons. 70-65 tons is way easier to work with in a drop-deck loadout. When you start talking about assault mechs, you have to make one of your later drops weaker, so that assault mech better be damn worth it (Like an Atlas or a Battlemaster) Not to mention the fact that all it's weapons are in the arms, so if you shield you lose a lot of firepower. The Victor just isn't worth the opportunity cost of tonnage spent. I'm really sorry

PS: If anyone actually owns a Victor and is better at mech-fu than me, feel free to give this guy a build that doesn't suck, I'm lost on this one.

Edited by Starbomber109, 12 January 2017 - 03:27 PM.

[Virlutris]

Starbomber109, on 12 January 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

The short answer: Not really

The long answer: That mech has no builds that I can find that seem to work with the 'speed limit' most of us like to have for FW (which tends to be about 70 kph.) However, the Victor can get to that speed pretty easy, the trouble is the lack of hardpoints. VTR-9K &lt;-That's the best I could come up with, as you can see, it lacks amo for the Gauss Rifle (20 shots is low). Maybe I could upgrade to Ferro....but that eats up all my open slots then I can't fit ANY amo. Maybe I could drop the engine down....which is probably what I would do if I was dead set on running it.

Granted, the Victor is fast, and the armor buffs made it slightly tougher, but it will always have the problem of being undergunned compared to it's competitors at 75 tons. 70-65 tons is way easier to work with in a drop-deck loadout. When you start talking about assault mechs, you have to make one of your later drops weaker, so that assault mech better be damn worth it (Like an Atlas or a Battlemaster) Not to mention the fact that all it's weapons are in the arms, so if you shield you lose a lot of firepower. The Victor just isn't worth the opportunity cost of tonnage spent. I'm really sorry

PS: If anyone actually owns a Victor and is better at mech-fu than me, feel free to give this guy a build that doesn't suck, I'm lost on this one.

Passable, though not for FRR coordinated deck drops:

VTR-9S WITH AC20, 2xSRM6, 1x SRM4. It'll do 69.7kph with the stock standard 320 engine and speed tweak. It goes much faster and picks up a couple MLs if you risk the XL engine.

[Starbomber109]

A question about light mechs. The locust is kinda in a tier of it's own (I know it's in tier 2 but it is special because it's the lightest mech, and one of the fastest.) but about the 35 ton lights, specifically, the Raven. Is there a significant difference between the Raven and the other 35t IS lights? Obviously you'd only ever use 1 light in a drop, is there really that big a difference between a Raven4X and some other 35 ton light mech like a Jenner 7K with the same weapons (3x LL)? Do those 'other lights' like the wolfhound and the jenner deserve to be that much lower than the Raven? I know one of the reasons is the insane quirks that the raven has but a light mech is not gonna be that useful across all maps/modes, and the Raven is slower than both the Jenner and the Wolfhound (though the wolfhound can't jump)

[KinLuu]

If we are talking about the 3x LLas or 2x ERLLas builds, which are poking builds, the most important differences between the Raven and the other 35 ton options are:

1. Quirks

2. Front profile

3. Hitboxes

4. Hardpoint locations

And the Raven has a clear advantage in at least three areas over all other 35 ton options. So, if you want to bring a poking light, you should bring a Raven.

Now, if you want to bring a brawly or a backstabby light, it is a completely different question.

And let us be honest, outside of conquest, with 265 tons total there is little reason to bring a light at all.

[nehebkau]

BoldricKent, on 11 January 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Hm, with armor buff of 21 for all PHX models, they got 49 armor on arms, while side torsos have 44, its true there is
a structure difference in components 14/22, heck arms get bigger structure quirks the side torsos 7/6, so difference is down to 7.
Thing is, there are no 45-55 toners that have such high engine cap and JJ to boot (maybe WVRs, but 10 more tons, does hit the speed hard ). I can understand favoritism of CDA due to good hit boxes, high mounted weapon slots, still i think PHX should be a strong contender for flanking mech.

Spoiler

15 % is a general heat generation quirks, extra 5 cant outmatch basic heat difference between SPL and ML, also 4 of those are in arms, low mounted. Reason why i have weapon group that ties 2srms with head mounted laser, for lesser exposure. I agree
extra range will always give you more breathing space. In close brawl SPLs outperform ML by a mile.

I think drops should be build with same mobility standard at least on lance level and be matching through waves. At least from my experience 4.1 FW really emphasis speed and mobile line over the rather static nature of former invasion mode, Clan have
much greater coherence of that (locked engines) with much higher average speed. It calls for unification of speed in classes to respond.

I use this PHX-2 all the time in FW and it rocks it. It's an arctic cheetah with more armor. The speed and mobility of this mech makes me feel like I am in a light but it takes the abuse of a heavier medium.

I had this in a match on sulfurous rift a few days ago and did 1300 damage with on the attacking team playing the back-biter

Edited by nehebkau, 16 January 2017 - 03:13 PM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Uh-oh...some tankiness nerfs incoming for Warhammers next patch:


Warhammer Design Notes: The Warhammer consistently performs beyond other 'Mechs within its weight class, on both the Clan and IS side. It was too generously quirked with both offensive and defensive Quirks that were comparable to 'Mechs with greater inherent drawbacks. In this pass we are reducing its defensive Quirks to better distinguish the Warhammer as a well-rounded weapons platform, and to reduce its 'tank'-like characteristics when compared to other 'Mechs more befitting that role.

On the bright side, there are more mechs on the Clan side getting nerfs than on IS side...Whammy being the only real nerf for IS.

Edited by Sarsaparilla Kid, 20 January 2017 - 04:18 PM.

[Sjorpha]

On the bright side, there are some buffs as well.

The new armour buffed Cataphracts are well worth looking at, especially the 2UAC5 + 2PPC CTF-3D I believe might be a new thing.

[LordLeto]

I feel like the CTF days are past, its too wide to torso twist effectively, its geometry(besides the two high mounted E hardpoints) are too low slung for a heavy, and it can't safely make up for that with mobility. The builds it can do well are done better on other mechs.

I sadly had to sell my CTFs for bay space not to long ago. I gave it the ole college try to earn its place, its just not there

[_Comrade_]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 20 January 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

Uh-oh...some tankiness nerfs incoming for Warhammers next patch:


Warhammer Design Notes: The Warhammer consistently performs beyond other 'Mechs within its weight class, on both the Clan and IS side. It was too generously quirked with both offensive and defensive Quirks that were comparable to 'Mechs with greater inherent drawbacks. In this pass we are reducing its defensive Quirks to better distinguish the Warhammer as a well-rounded weapons platform, and to reduce its 'tank'-like characteristics when compared to other 'Mechs more befitting that role.

On the bright side, there are more mechs on the Clan side getting nerfs than on IS side...Whammy being the only real nerf for IS.

that sucks the Warhammer was are best mech against clans and they nerfed it. But I would like to see more dragons on the battlefield, I can't even remember the last time I saw someone piloting a dragon. So that buff was needed

[nehebkau]

I have a problem with our build recommendations. Specifically those that have an XL engine. I am going to be a bit of a jerk, but XL engines should only be used by players who are very good. And by very good I mean players who have other players comment on how good they are, not players who just think they are very good.

We should have standard engine builds that are what 90% of the population should use and the Super-advanced builds that the competitive and outstanding players use. I have seen too many players in FW using these builds that have XL engines yet have no understanding on how to protect themselves from losing a side torso. If we are going to post builds they should take into consideration the average skill of the player who is going to look at them.

Honestly, I think these builds with XL engines are doing more harm than good for the FRR and IS in general, most players are not Tarogato. Most players don't have the skills necessary to make an XL engine build work for them.

Seriously, if you stick an average driver in an F1 race car and tell them to go, expect to be peeling them off of a lamp-post 100m down the road.

Edited by nehebkau, 24 January 2017 - 07:35 PM.

[Starbomber109]

nehebkau, on 24 January 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

I have a problem with our build recommendations. Specifically those that have an XL engine. I am going to be a bit of a jerk, but XL engines should only be used by players who are very good. And by very good I mean players who have other players comment on how good they are, not players who just think they are very good.

We should have standard engine builds that are what 90% of the population should use and the Super-advanced builds that the competitive and outstanding players use. I have seen too many players in FW using these builds that have XL engines yet have no understanding on how to protect themselves from losing a side torso. If we are going to post builds they should take into consideration the average skill of the player who is going to look at them.

Honestly, I think these builds with XL engines are doing more harm than good for the FRR and IS in general, most players are not Tarogato. Most players don't have the skills necessary to make an XL engine build work for them.

Seriously, if you stick an average driver in an F1 race car and tell them to go, expect to be peeling them off of a lamp-post 100m down the road.

In principle, I agree with you. That's why I liked the old version's Thunderbolt recommendations. They're solid enough mechs for most people, and they're fast enough to work.

about 17 pages back though, I asked Dane if I could skip straight to Quickdraws (for the stormtrooper thing), because I didn't like the thunderbolt at the time. His response was 'go for it', and I had to learn on my feet, but I had a solid grasp of how to torso twist due to my hundreds of games in Centurions up to that point, so I picked it up fairly quick. The black knight wrecked face too so that kinda helped

My point is, yes, we could probably use more std engine builds in the spreadsheet. Some of the Warhammer builds, you can do with a standard engine you just move a bit slower...but shielding a damaged torso isn't impossible to learn. I still think new people should focus on thunderbolts, but warhammers and grasshoppers are solid enough that they can still work for you if you're willing to accept a high learning curve.

Edit: Also, here's a Standard Grasshopper I used for a long time before I found my 3rd XL325 engine hiding in one of my medium mechs that I never play. It's got a highly concentrated right poke alpha. Excellent in city fights, decent at mid-range though the MPLs can't match the range of the LPL.

Edited by Starbomber109, 28 January 2017 - 08:34 AM.

[4EVR]

You can fit 2 extra heat sinks on that build with ferro, e.g.

GHR-5N Std300 Asym Pulse