416 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

There are some excellent 5 ERLL TDR trade builds for people who already have them from the Thud meta days and didn't buy the 5P Hopper.

With 2 or 3 high mounts (depending on model) 10% range, -15% heat and -15% duration quirks the 5S 5xERLL and 5SS MPL Wubberbolt are still excellent mechs. Even the 5erll one is cool enough to brawl and the quirks put the beams back to 1 second or so.

3 Thuds and a Whammy or BLK works really well, hits the speed profile and uses mechs most people already have.

To the people saying "experiment"....

Wtf? Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? This is like NASCAR. The science of vehicle design isn't new and smarter people than you have already worked out what wins. Learn that and, once you've absorbed and mastered the body of information people have already learned you can add to that.

What you're talking about though is saying that to learn to be an architect you're not going to get an architectural degree or study engineering, you're just going to go build apartment complexes for people and try to figure out why some of them keep collapsing and killing everyone until you can build one that doesn't fall over.

Stop it. Learn what works and why, use what has already been tested and proven until you're a top performer and have proven you get what wins and how then start expanding on that mode of knowledge and skills and help pioneer new builds.

Being oblivious and refusing to learn or use what works like somehow practicing playing poorly is some virtue is, in reality, just saying you want everyone else to carry you while you derp.

First, learn to chop wood and carry water. Then learn mech-fu.

[Jarl Dane]

Tarogato, on 30 December 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

science

Appogee, on 30 December 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

counter-science

Tarogato, on 31 December 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

new science accomplished

This is the good **** right here.
This is the kind of stuff this post exists for.

[Starbomber109]

ggodo, on 31 December 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Starbomber, I'm not sure I could convince my wife to spend much money on my 'free' game. How much is the widow?

Well, to buy it with MC at this moment (not on sale) it would be about 5250 MC, but you can only buy MC in certain amounts. 6100 MC is about $30,. If you buy the Warhammer pack in the store, and get the hero add on, it's about $35. If you have a bunch of MC lying around go for it. Otherwise it's more effective to just buy the mech pack with the add on unless you take advantage of sales. Sadly you just missed a big sale, but there are always sales.

[MischiefSC]

Tarogato, on 31 December 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

Stop comparing the LL build to an LPL build. What you should really be comparing is the IS build(s) vs the Clan build(s).


This does bring up an interesting point. Because LL is the better flexible all-purpose build, and it generally is better for carry-players... people who like to leverage their aiming and positioning skills to win trades, playing the slow game rather than kamikaze straight into the enemy team. I would love to see everybody in LL builds, uniformly. But not everybody has the skill to use them, and after my nights on the Jarl's Longship, I'm seeing how effective it really is to just kamikaze viking the shіt out of clan teams. If that's the new meta (which maybe it should be, given our success, lol), then yes uniform LPL would be better.






To put my money where my mouth is, and eat my foot while I'm at it,

5x LL with 17DHS: 264 sustained damage per minute
2x cLPL + 4x cERML with 25cDHS: 360 to 372 sustained damage per minute
2x cERPPC + cGauss with 15cDHS: 262 to 348 sustained damage per minute

It seems that the 5LL is actually shіt for sustained damage output, so there's no point in rushing with it. In order for LL to compete with clan DPS (or DPM), it needs to be fueled by 25 DHS. Or 21 DHS and a 15% heat gen quirk.

So if there is to be a unified deck, I think you have yourself an argument for LPL over LL. That said, I'm not going to stop playing my own LL mechs, because they perform better for me and my playstyle.

This really just confirms to me that PGI really needs to revert the buff to clan DHS. Clans were already preferred over IS, and then PGI just made clan heat performance better for no reason. Seriously wtf.

Have you tried the 5erll on the TDR vs the LL? After quirks you're giving up about .2 seconds more burn time, however given that you're often going 3/2 in firing the impact is minimal. You're only generating an extra 4.25 heat every full exchange over LLs but picking up 247m of optimal range and and almost 500m of total range.

More to the point that closing range of 800-500m where you would usually be losing trades vs CLPL/ERPPC/Gauss you're winning, even trading vs EVIL I've yet to have someone get in and out of cover in under 1 sec.

If you play a bit more trade style I'd recommend it. I ran a bunch of matches with some AWOL, MS peeps while they were slumming it in the IS who used the ERLL TDR/GHRs vs the LL ones and I didn't notice any drawbacks and a lot of positives. The 4.25 heat over all 5 lasers per exchange was all but irrelevant and the longer burn time easy to manage. It brawled the same, just fine.

I didn't feel like I wasn't able to keep up with the push or that I was losing anything vs the 5xLL build I had been running. With quirks the ERLLs are only 1 second, feels like MLs/LLs on everything else.

Being able to get full damage at Clan optimal range and out-trade CLPLs at long range? It comes up a lot. I can say in practice it's played better on all the maps and positions I used to run the LL builds on. Is there something I'm missing?

[Tarogato]

MischiefSC, on 31 December 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

Have you tried the 5erll on the TDR vs the LL?

I've never tried the TDR-5S, because it just seems like a slower QKD with no jumpjets, or a GHR with STD instead of good hitboxes. That said, I would think 5LL is too hot for a Thunderbolt, let alone 5ERLL. Also, I didn't really like 5ERLL when I tried it on GHR. Was too hot for most applications outside of ERLL-specific maps.

Edited by Tarogato, 31 December 2016 - 04:53 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Tarogato, on 31 December 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

I've never tried the TDR-5S, because it just seems like a slower QKD with no jumpjets, or a GHR with STD instead of good hitboxes. That said, I would think 5LL is too hot for a Thunderbolt, let alone 5ERLL. Also, I didn't really like 5ERLL when I tried it on GHR. Was too hot for most applications outside of ERLL-specific maps.

Better hitboxes and bordering on stupid quirks, small profile and 2 or 3 of the hardpoints are cockpit level.

With the quirks it has the ERLLs are only 6.8 heat each. They are literally cooler than the 5LPLs on the BLR 2C. It lacks the super beefy structure quirks but at 10 per side torso it's not fragile.

[Starbomber109]

Tarogato, on 31 December 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

I've never tried the TDR-5S, because it just seems like a slower QKD with no jumpjets, or a GHR with STD instead of good hitboxes. That said, I would think 5LL is too hot for a Thunderbolt, let alone 5ERLL. Also, I didn't really like 5ERLL when I tried it on GHR. Was too hot for most applications outside of ERLL-specific maps.

This is what my GHR-5P looks like right now. I actually do decently in it. the ER larges are on the highest mounts, while the LLs are across the torso. I think I like this way better than the corner poke build I was trying before. Edit: Also this makes the heat more manegable. If I need to run cool and I'm at closer range I can just fire the LL as they are more heat efficient than the ER LL, while the high mounted ERLL give me the tools to poke. As to 5ERLL on the thund, I've never tried it, I know the one in the old 'beginner drop deck' was a 4LL build. 5LL seems only to be possible for XL, and the thund wouldn't be too bad for it I just think it's way too slow.

Edited by Starbomber109, 31 December 2016 - 10:18 PM.

[Appogee]

Tarogato, on 31 December 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

This really just confirms to me that PGI really needs to revert the buff to clan DHS. Clans were already preferred over IS, and then PGI just made clan heat performance better for no reason. Seriously wtf.

Agreed.

And it wasn't just the Clan DHS buff. They also nerfed the most effective IS Autocannon builds, which in effect further narrowed the heat advantage that IS had over Clans... the heat advantage which was originally supposed to be the IS's counter to the Clans' superior range, XL engines, min/maxed hardpoints etc!

PGI is to balance as drunk is to tightrope.

[Lupis Volk]

My Jarl and other kinsmen. I'm planing on doing some scouting runs and am in dire need of some builds. Griffin ones if they available 2N preferable But i do also have a Shadow Hawk 2D2 that is in need of a build.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 01 January 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[LordLeto]

There is a Griffin-2N build on the master list. 4xASRM4s and a Standard Engine. Its very good for Scouting.

[ggodo]

Failed QUOTE Attempt:

Grasshoppers:
While you can build a deck with three Warhammer variants, the -7S is noticeably weaker than the rest, and the dakka Whammy isn't ideal for every map. The Grasshopper deck is more homogeneous, every build is extremely similar and can be played virtually the same. It's simple to learn, and always effective.

A great place to start if you're new to CW and building your first dropdeck. Mind the XL engines, torso twist after every shot to spread incoming fire, and remember that pumping your jumpjets can make you harder to hit.

GHR-5P (opening mech, has a bit more range with LL to get through the poke phase in the first wave)
GHR-5H (laservomit alpha-monster. It's fast and nimble, and quirked for heat.)
GHR-5N (same as the previous, but built for right-peek. Arguably third best variant.)
40-tonner or less (CDA-3M, RVN-2X, or on some maps the Oxide and CDA-2B are better where there is more brawling)

End Failed QUOTE Attempt

Dane, I have a mastered RVN-2X. What is the build you would suggest for it? ERLLs or something? I could grab something off Metamechs, but I want to know what role you see them fulfilling.

[Sjorpha]

Lupis Volk, on 01 January 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

But i do also have a Shadow Hawk 2D2 that is in need of a build.

This is the metabuild.

Edited by Sjorpha, 02 January 2017 - 04:33 AM.

[BoldricKent]

2d2, doesnt really have useful ballistic quirks, 2H would be much better bet.
So i let ballistic go, put on 4Streaks, 2mpls, max XL, almost full JJ add 360 degree module with target delay one,
and youll be able to shoot people behind you, not that would last for long, since with 340XL, ShadowHawk can dance.
You can use srm4 instead but thats a different gameplay. Streaks, speed,JJ, have still a role in light hunters.
The mismatch would be downgrade engine, use 2LL and srm4 for close ups. I cant do less then 300XL on our 55.

[Kheg VanHellSink]

Lupis Volk, on 01 January 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

My Jarl and other kinsmen. I'm planing on doing some scouting runs and am in dire need of some builds. Griffin ones if they available 2N preferable But i do also have a Shadow Hawk 2D2 that is in need of a build.

this works very well in scouting... but not as good in other game play modes
the AC10 is nice for ripping legs of adders and things and arms off nova's and corring the backs of them IIC, becouse of the low dammage spread.
the SRM2 have a nice placement high around the head so they also have a verry low dammage spread efective against lights and meds.
and VERRY good on HOT maps unlike the 2N

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0d28b4adebdf5cc

I use UAV and Air Stike (incase i run out of ammo and need to hurt or kills something at the end of the match.

oh the Griffen 2N is 4 SRM6+Artimis u can get it off metamechs.com
its still kills everything on the battle field. a pair of them can down a IIC in seconds on back its. runs hot so bring cool shots

Sjorpha, on 02 January 2017 - 04:32 AM, said:

This is the metabuild.

to slow for scouting... works well in other game modes though

Edited by Kheg VanHellSink, 03 January 2017 - 11:28 AM.

[Kheg VanHellSink]

BoldricKent, on 03 January 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

2d2, doesnt really have useful ballistic quirks, 2H would be much better bet.
So i let ballistic go, put on 4Streaks, 2mpls, max XL, almost full JJ add 360 degree module with target delay one,
and youll be able to shoot people behind you, not that would last for long, since with 340XL, ShadowHawk can dance.
You can use srm4 instead but thats a different gameplay. Streaks, speed,JJ, have still a role in light hunters.
The mismatch would be downgrade engine, use 2LL and srm4 for close ups. I cant do less then 300XL on our 55.

i wonder if i can mod my build for a JJ..... with out giveing up to much the 350 i use makes all the diffrence in the twisting and chaceing adders and cheetas around i would not want to give that up. i found it more effective then the 340
without the beagle i found locks take too long to get on cheetas adders and jenners to be usfull. also the cycle time on the srm2s are now insane. so your DPS with them is higher but u do have to be a good shot.

gunna give this a shot.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e272a1fba833cf1
i miss the griffins jump jets

Edited by Kheg VanHellSink, 03 January 2017 - 11:45 AM.

[JaegerDjinn]

I have a quick question regarding the tier builds and some of my builds being used for the RKA. The Rifleman 3n you have as a 2 ac5 and 6 ml build, what i have find that works well for that mech is 1 ac5 and 1 quass rifle with 2 med lasers. Also your Marauder 3R as 3 ac5 and 2 med lasers. Mine is 2 ac5 1 ac2 and 4 med lasers and not slow [running 80.1 kph]. Question is could I sub theses for your builds since they are so close.

[Starbomber109]

jjyn, on 03 January 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

I have a quick question regarding the tier builds and some of my builds being used for the RKA. The Rifleman 3n you have as a 2 ac5 and 6 ml build, what i have find that works well for that mech is 1 ac5 and 1 quass rifle with 2 med lasers.

Well, I happen to take myself as something of a rifleman expert. The point of the 2x AC5 is it lays down a ton of lead on clan forces, you only fire the medium lasers in close quarters combat. Your suggestion (AC5, Gauss RIfle, 3x Medium) does have a longer range, but the weapon cooldowns don't really match up. Your gauss rifle doesn't have the same kind of DPS due to charge time and such. And for popping out and firing you're not really taking advantage of the AC5s rate of fire. That build won't really win trades if that's what you're thinking (20 dmg at 600m is not that amazing) That's not to say your build is bad, as long as it moves the right speed, I wouldn't mind having it, but i think there are more efficient uses of that tonnage. You could run 1 Gauss/5medLas for a nice mid-ranged build (and it still moves at 72 kph with a standard engine, or 81 ish with an xl280) And you could even run an AC20+4 medLas with a Std 280 (I think that's the one I used, might have been a 260, either way it moved at 78KPH which is more than fast enough to keep up with RKA forces)

Edited by Starbomber109, 03 January 2017 - 08:08 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Kheg VanHellSink, on 03 January 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

to slow for scouting... works well in other game modes though

Agreed, but it's the best build on the 2D2. For scouting you are better off with another mech.

[Tarogato]

I've reformatted and updated the build sheet a bit.


Tier 1: these are the best mechs for the job. If you're looking to buy mechs for Faction Play, your end goal should be a deck full of as many Tier 1 mechs and builds as possible.

Tier 2: these are good if you don't have all Tier 1 mechs yet. Some of them are good enough to sub in for Tier 1 mechs according to personal taste, but it would be better if you just ran Tier 1 mechs if you have them.

Tier 3: minimum acceptable. Have as few of these in your deck as possible, as they are not really recommended. But you can use these if you already have them laying around and you're still in the process of buying Tier 1 mechs.

Tier 4: if a mech did not make it onto the list, then it is considered Tier 4. Don't bring it, it will actively hinder your performance. If you believe an excluded mech deserves to be on the approved list, feel free to make a case for it.




Brawl: brawling is a niche strat for organised teams. Don't bring these mechs if you aren't coordinating it with your team. The best brawling mechs in the Inner Sphere are generally medium mechs, as only they have the speed and hardpoints necessarily to get into range and deal substantial DPS. They are also ideal for Scouting 4v4 mode. Most heavy mechs are too slow, and heavy laser brawlers are often too hot for organised play.

Mid-range: this is the premiere engagement range for Innersphere mechs (200m - 400m), and is dominated by the highly efficient large pulse laser (LPL). Most Clan teams want to engage at further distances because their weapons have superior range and superior damage, so you need to get within 400m and straight-up out-DPS them. If a Clan team brings brawl, you can kite them with the LPL range, but this requires stellar gunnery and focus fire, not to mention scouting.

Long range: this is the range where Clans dominate, and the Innersphere's best offering is large laser (LL) spam. The LL does not have better range nor does it have better DPS or larger alphas compared to most Clan builds, but it can be used very effectively by experienced players in conjunction with and in support of an LPL-heavy team.

Extreme range: these are specialty builds that should only used on specific map and mode combinations (such as Frozen City, Alpine Peaks) or by specific players in specific strategies (such as an overwatch position on Hellebore, Grim Plexus, Boreal Vault, etc.)

BoldricKent, on 03 January 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

2d2, doesnt really have useful ballistic quirks, 2H would be much better bet.

The SHD-2H actually has a negative 25% missile hardpoints quirk.

You don't put a ballistic on the SHD-2D2 because it's a ballistic, you put an LB10 on it because it's basically an SRM5. You can spend an extra ton to make it an AC10 instead, but there's really no point because the SRM4s have spread anyways, so you may as well save the ton and the full loadout is essentially SRM21 with a reasonable spread and fairly tight convergence.

BoldricKent, on 03 January 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

So i let ballistic go, put on 4Streaks, 2mpls, max XL, almost full JJ add 360 degree module with target delay one,
and youll be able to shoot people behind you, not that would last for long, since with 340XL, ShadowHawk can dance.
You can use srm4 instead but thats a different gameplay. Streaks, speed,JJ, have still a role in light hunters.
The mismatch would be downgrade engine, use 2LL and srm4 for close ups. I cant do less then 300XL on our 55.

You can't aim Streaks. They target random components. Don't use them.

Kheg VanHellSink, on 03 January 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

i wonder if i can mod my build for a JJ..... with out giveing up to much the 350 i use makes all the diffrence in the twisting and chaceing adders and cheetas around i would not want to give that up. i found it more effective then the 340
without the beagle i found locks take too long to get on cheetas adders and jenners to be usfull. also the cycle time on the srm2s are now insane. so your DPS with them is higher but u do have to be a good shot.

gunna give this a shot.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e272a1fba833cf1
i miss the griffins jump jets

You don't really need jumpjets for anything. You also don't need to go any more than 100 kph. SRM2s also require you to stare at your enemy, which is generally a bad practice for pretty obvious reasons.

And that build has basically no ammo. 460 damage and you're done, and that's assuming you nail every single projectile you fire.

Use this instead: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...94b9fefee992565

That has ammo for 1,000 damage and a larger alpha so that you can twist between shoots without cutting into your DPS.

Edited by Tarogato, 05 January 2017 - 04:56 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Tarogato,

The A1 you have listed as 6 SRM6 is I assume different than the 6A-SRM6 build at linked at the top of the thread. Would you please confirm that and if it is different pleas supply the specifics to the build you have in mind?

Thanks.