170 replies to this topic

[Celtic Warrior]

Kin3ticX, on 05 March 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

What about the 23 people that helped 1 guy do like 12k damage during a CW ladder event? Pretty sure PGI only punished the 1 guy and not the 23. Which unit was that?

It's their poor reputation that's making things bad for NKVA. I did not ban the NKVA players but PGI felt there was enough reason to do so.

[Sputty]

Celtic Warrior, on 05 March 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I never said I supported it but I'm not losing any sleep over it. If you're worried about your members being banned then you and your unit should take strides in improving your members conduct during matches. This will also help with your units poor reputation in the community.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

MischiefSC, on 05 March 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

You've also directly insulted players and units by name in this thread and others. Everyone in this thread has. The difference is that you and I won't get moderated... or at least you won't, because there isn't a cowardly segment of the population looking to punish you for having said something mean to them one time.

That's the point. You break the rules and get away with it. Someone else does the same thing and doesn't. That isn't so much PGI failing to moderate as it is a bunch of simpering, abject cowards trying to push attention to moderate at the people they don't like.

You are assuming this though aren't you? You are assuming they were banned because there is a segment of the community that doesn't like them and reports them continuously.

I have been in games with them where they have trashed talked random players to no end. For all you know PGI banned them because they were receiving reports from new players for harassment and PGI didn't want their new business being lowered.

This, of course, is speculation on my part but makes as much sense as anything. You have no facts and have no certainty in regards to why any discipline was handed out.

I would say this, if anyone in that drop was banned because they were associated with that one player and for no other reason then I think they should be unbanned. Regardless though it goes back to the simple fact of why not just ban all 12 people in the drop then.

MS is probably the most hated of the power units in the general community largely due to their effectiveness but they have never once been banned. They probably have more complaints filed against them than anyone in terms of the reporting tool, but since they do not actually do anything against the TOS continually they have never been punished. This tells me that the game moderation is at least largely effective. Why fix what ain't broken?

[vandalhooch]

Lobo VVahya, on 05 March 2016 - 02:17 PM, said:

You seem to not understand,

There is a massive difference between being rude, then there is to being toxic.

The difference between funny, rude, and toxic is not an objective thing. It is completely subjective.

What NKVA does is surf those subjective lines for their own entertainment purposes.

Some people in this game are like people who go to a see Don Rickles perform stand up and are shocked to find out that he insults them personally the whole night. If you are dropping against NKVA and you know what's coming, you can always just turn off all chat for the drop just like players routinely mute players they find obnoxious on VOIP.

I get the argument that a player shouldn't have to mute all chat just because NKVA showed up but it really is a slippery slope when you try to use majority opinions to determine subjective lines. Just think about the Supreme Court's attempt to objectively define pornography and all the outrage that has created.

Quote

Saying something like, man you really suck. Compared to saying you stupid (racist black word)(F word)(****) I hope you die with aids.

The first, doesn't harm anyone. The second can seriously harm someone and has no place in this day in age. If you cannot see the difference then I feel sorry for you.

Sadly there are a few members for NKVA who make comments like the second one. I'm sure the banned players all have chat histories showing that.

Edit: What's even worse, is the officers or members of the unit simply don't care what their players do. Then we get posts like this, saying they were "unjustly banned". Etc..

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

MischiefSC, on 05 March 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Except we've seen it in effect. When mocking a particular segment of a particular faction those specific threads or comments got moderated and sent to ktown.

The forums are full of trash talk. NKVA has ragged on Davion and Marik extensively. Those threads are still on the forums. However one particular cowardly, feeble, spineless, fragile, contemptible segment of one particular faction scampers like a sobbing child to their mommys skirts begging for some authority figure to step in and protect their childish sensibilities from any threat to their faux sense of self importance.

I hope just what a total and complete ******* joke that segment of players is comes across there.

That's the point. It's not misbehaving - we all do that and get away with it. It's not over the line stuff (slurs, etc) nobody has an issue with that getting moderated within reason, that's why moderation is there.

It's one specific group of contemptible people in one particular faction using moderation to punish people for perceived slights which in turn has NKVA getting punished disproportionately. There are threads on this forum full of well known players saying worse stuff about specific employees by name at PGI than anything NKVA has done. If that were said about this specific cowardly group in said unmentionable faction it would get moderated.

Because regardless of what you say about PGI they are not as cowardly, feeble and childish as the segment of said faction.



I can't like your post if you don't like it first. Can't be that funny if you didn't amuse yourself.

Honestly man I have no idea what you are even talking about. NKVA is here right now and posting in this thread.

I don't play much forum warrior and have no idea what is and what is not moderated here.

Honestly I don't care either as this is not a game.

[Monkey Lover]

MischiefSC, on 05 March 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

Except you're wrong. If this was the guy who said something ban-worthy getting a 2 week ban there wouldn't be a conversation. 8 or 9 people getting a ban over something 1 guy said?

I find the desire to punish a whole unit over 1 player offensive - I also find the desire to get moderation authority to protect you from people who might disrespect you not just offensive but worthy of condemnation. Should I get a bunch of friends to report you? If we do it regularly and often enough and say 'you and your friends' then at some point when you do say something legit against ToS, maybe I can get you all a ban.

Clearly it's a system that works.

I wasn't there so all I can go off of is what I know of knva. I never saw only 1 person saying things in my matches ,8-9 people on 12 man team sounds about right to me.

Over all 2 weeks ban is nothing. Go play some fallout and when they come back maybe they will stop. Maybe the unit will start focusing on its troubled people. My unit has a code I have to live by Or they would kick me out.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 05 March 2016 - 03:40 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I wouldn't call out a particular unit. Unfair generalization. Besides, SWOL is a lot of players that covers a broad spectrum.

There is a segment of the population in one specific faction that's pretty feeble that way though, yeah.

[Richter Kerensky]

Monkey Lover, on 05 March 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

My unit has a code I have to live by Or they would kick me out.

We make a point of not policing people or forcing them to do anything and have had several people -- good players, even -- defect to our unit because they were sick of being told what to do all the time by people whose dream it is to be Generalissimo Of Imagination Land. I can't fathom tolerating that for even two seconds, but when you have to put up with that nonsense and THEN get clowned on by people who aren't trying to play army men all day I imagine you start questioning why you signed up for this at all.

[nehebkau]

Richter Kerensky, on 05 March 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

We make a point of not policing people or forcing them to do anything and have had several people -- good players, even -- defect to our unit because they were sick of being told what to do all the time by people whose dream it is to be Generalissimo Of Imagination Land. I can't fathom tolerating that for even two seconds, but when you have to put up with that nonsense and THEN get clowned on by people who aren't trying to play army men all day I imagine you start questioning why you signed up for this at all.

LOL I love you you guys always like your own posts. You just never miss an opportunity to turn the knife do you?

[Mahikan]

vandalhooch, on 05 March 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

The difference between funny, rude, and toxic is not an objective thing. It is completely subjective.

What NKVA does is surf those subjective lines for their own entertainment purposes.

Some people in this game are like people who go to a see Don Rickles perform stand up and are shocked to find out that he insults them personally the whole night. If you are dropping against NKVA and you know what's coming, you can always just turn off all chat for the drop just like players routinely mute players they find obnoxious on VOIP.

I get the argument that a player shouldn't have to mute all chat just because NKVA showed up but it really is a slippery slope when you try to use majority opinions to determine subjective lines. Just think about the Supreme Court's attempt to objectively define pornography and all the outrage that has created.

it's not objective if it's against the games TOS,

There also has been cases of online bullying being put to court. When you use racial slurs and homophobic slurs, Or continually harass someone with things like killing yourself, I hope you die by being hung, Your family deserves cancer etc... Objectivity does not play a roll.

You use a comedian as an example. IF a white comedian hopped on stage and said things like, you N words need to be hung, and All gays deserve to die. Especially THIS N WORD right here (picking out a random audience member). I hope you're entire family dies of cancer, the public outrage would be unreal. Not to mention legality issues.

I shouldn't have to deal with members of NKVA hoping into to team speak and us calling Maggots with a F instead of M. I also shouldn't have to deal with it in game.

There are in fact lines that cross and I think you'll find that every video game has a terms of service, and it's no longer about objectivity but the pure fact that they continually break it. Take league of legends or WOW for example. You will get perma banned for all of those comments.

Hell i'd argue you get banned much much faster.

These people deserved their ban, I'm on swols side as much as anything. I've beaten swol numerous times never have I been reported.

Edited by Lobo VVahya, 05 March 2016 - 04:15 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Richter Kerensky, on 05 March 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

We make a point of not policing people or forcing them to do anything and have had several people -- good players, even -- defect to our unit because they were sick of being told what to do all the time by people whose dream it is to be Generalissimo Of Imagination Land. I can't fathom tolerating that for even two seconds, but when you have to put up with that nonsense and THEN get clowned on by people who aren't trying to play army men all day I imagine you start questioning why you signed up for this at all.

Nothing wrong with a little discipline in your group.

Generally you pay double for that action, Cotton.

[Dawnstealer]

I've pugged with NKVA on occasion - they talk trash, but they back it up by being really good at this game. Sure they're jerks, but they're talented jerks. At a certain point, all they can do is type at you harder. Eh.

While we're reporting things, I'd like to report that I STILL don't have a Hatchetman.

[Celtic Warrior]

SA Baxter, on 05 March 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

Will SWOL be addressing their reputation for mass reporting people who beat them in videogames?

Please get your facts straight before posting nonsense. There was no "mass" reporting I was one of the 12 players that night and I didn't report it so it was less then 12 reports. Not even sure OP is in NKVA or not maybe he's trying to champion their cause for some odd reason.

[Bud Crue]

I've often said, though I never listen to my own advice, that you should not drink and play nor should you drink and forum warrior. Though it is the weekend, I am well and truly sober. That said I think a good solid buzz would help make sense of thise thread. Someone help me here: are we really talking about the following issues:

1) that members of a unit got banned for being total jerks?
2) that people are shocked, just shocked that being a total jerk (to the point of dropping racial epitaphs as asserted by some yet denied thus far by know one that I've seen) is enough for PGI to ban someone?

Is this really what this is all about? I mean doesn't PGI give people the ability to report each other for "non participation" and unproductive or even abusive conduct on chat? I guess I just assumed that if those reports were frequent enough and/or focused enough they would have consequences. No?
Again I am sober here so the shocking or surprising aspect of all this is just not coming to me. I'll try again after a few.

Edited by Bud Crue, 05 March 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Richter Kerensky, on 05 March 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

We make a point of not policing people or forcing them to do anything and have had several people -- good players, even -- defect to our unit because they were sick of being told what to do all the time by people whose dream it is to be Generalissimo Of Imagination Land. I can't fathom tolerating that for even two seconds, but when you have to put up with that nonsense and THEN get clowned on by people who aren't trying to play army men all day I imagine you start questioning why you signed up for this at all.

I would think people who cause trouble and do things outside the tos wouldn't like being told what to do. You can play like this all you want but there are consequences for this.

Example from real life , you have biker clubs who have some basic rules then you have the clubs where they don't monitor. What clubs do you think end up in jail more often. You know the police don't just take the 1 trouble maker ha-ha.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bud Crue, on 05 March 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

I've often said, though I never listen to my own advice, that you should not drink and play nor should you drink and forum warrior. Though it is the weekend, I am well and truly sober. That said I think a good solid buzz would help make sense of thise thread. Someone help me here: are we really talking about the following issues:

1) that members of a unit got banned for being total jerks?
2) that people are shocked, just shocked that being a total jerk (to the point of dropping racial epitaphs as asserted by some yet denied thus far by know one that I've seen) is enough for PGI to ban someone?

Is this really what this is all about? I mean doesn't PGI give people the ability to report each other for "non participation" and unproductive or even abusive conduct on chat? I guess I just assumed that if those reports were frequent enough and/or focused enough they would have consequences. No?
Again I am sober here so the shocking or surprising aspect of all this is just not coming to me. I'll try again after a few.

I can't tolerate this ******** *** community sober.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Bud Crue, on 05 March 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

I've often said, though I never listen to my own advice, that you should not drink and play nor should you drink and forum warrior. Though it is the weekend, I am well and truly sober. That said I think a good solid buzz would help make sense of thise thread. Someone help me here: are we really talking about the following issues:

1) that members of a unit got banned for being total jerks?
2) that people are shocked, just shocked that being a total jerk (to the point of dropping racial epitaphs as asserted by some yet denied thus far by know one that I've seen) is enough for PGI to ban someone?

Is this really what this is all about? I mean doesn't PGI give people the ability to report each other for "non participation" and unproductive or even abusive conduct on chat? I guess I just assumed that if those reports were frequent enough and/or focused enough they would have consequences. No?
Again I am sober here so the shocking or surprising aspect of all this is just not coming to me. I'll try again after a few.

I will summarize.

1) Thread starts off by saying SWOL mass reported NKVA because they beat us in a game. One player was reported for issuing a threat that could be taken as a real life threat by a few members of our unit that were in the game.

2) The masses demand proof that SWOL isn't mass reporting. We indicate that to our knowledge this is a bannable offense so why would we do this unless we wanted to be banned. Also, we indicated the report tool is confidential so we have no proof to give even if we wanted to.

3) Thread turns into a discussion if PGI is moderating fairly or picking on people which again was pointed out we have no way of knowing anything other than it largely appears they tend to be fair as people mass report all the time but only a few trouble makers are banned for conduct that arguably is against the TOS.

And at this point I'm out as I don't think there is much left to discuss.

[Bud Crue]

Blueduck, on 05 March 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

I will summarize.

1) Thread starts off by saying SWOL mass reported NKVA because they beat us in a game. One player was reported for issuing a threat that could be taken as a real life threat by a few members of our unit that were in the game.

2) The masses demand proof that SWOL isn't mass reporting. We indicate that to our knowledge this is a bannable offense so why would we do this unless we wanted to be banned. Also, we indicated the report tool is confidential so we have no proof to give even if we wanted to.

3) Thread turns into a discussion if PGI is moderating fairly or picking on people which again was pointed out we have no way of knowing anything other than it largely appears they tend to be fair as people mass report all the time but only a few trouble makers are banned for conduct that arguably is against the TOS.

And at this point I'm out as I don't think there is much left to discuss.

Yep. Need booze, at least, for this. I'll check back later, but my guess is this will be gone or at least in K-town, by the time I am in any condition to give a well thought out analysis of this very heavy situation.
Until then golden rule kids, golden rule.

[KahnWongFuChung]

OP the report system was not needed in MWO it is just as bad as the stupid map vote system .

I would assume all the reports go into a daily log file and are deleted every day unread.

SO PGI just keeps making more work for itself with dumb features instead of making MWO a better game with more content =(GAME MODES NEEDED) quick before all the steam kiddies get bored to death with polar and skirmish all day.

Edited by KahnWongFuChung, 05 March 2016 - 04:41 PM.

[SA Baxter]

Monkey Lover, on 05 March 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

Example from real life , you have biker clubs who have some basic rules then you have the clubs where they don't monitor. What clubs do you think end up in jail more often. You know the police don't just take the 1 trouble maker ha-ha.

You can't go to jail for being part of a club where one person does something wrong. You go to jail when you've actually done a crime and been charged with it and then tried. An unmonitored club might get raided or examined by police but they don't throw people in jail just for being there.

Guilt by association is a logical ad hominem fallacy, and for all that people claim that NKVA has violated the TOS only one person can be proved to have, the rest of the banned members were not told what they had said that violated the TOS, and one account wasn't even being used.

That is all there is to it, the rest of the argument is people trying to justify the moderator's actions because their feelings have been hurt.