72 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Stefka Kerensky, on 09 March 2016 - 03:23 AM, said:

Which I hope they won't, because this is esactly why I love Bog: while most people get stuck, I don't.

I'm not talking about the logs and the obstructions, I'm talking about the fact that there's essentially only 3 real alternatives for team movement in every match, unless you have an organized 12-man group that is willing to do a different tactic. In 99% of all solo queue matches, both teams have 3 real options (4 if you count the river, which I don't). You go left, you go right or you go between the plateaus.

As both teams have 3 options, you essentially have 9 different outcomes. But in most matches, both teams will either go left or right, so its essentially 4 different outcomes. And in most of those matches, both teams actually choose to go right, so it's essentially the same outcome over and over again. The only difference is how the chaos unfolds once both teams have started circling each other.

I like maps with few limits on movement and many possible routes. So it is not just a question of "left, right or center?".

[STEF_]

Alistair Winter, on 09 March 2016 - 03:43 AM, said:

I'm not talking about the logs and the obstructions, I'm talking about the fact that there's essentially only 3 real alternatives for team movement in every match, unless you have an organized 12-man group that is willing to do a different tactic. In 99% of all solo queue matches, both teams have 3 real options (4 if you count the river, which I don't). You go left, you go right or you go between the plateaus.

As both teams have 3 options, you essentially have 9 different outcomes. But in most matches, both teams will either go left or right, so its essentially 4 different outcomes. And in most of those matches, both teams actually choose to go right, so it's essentially the same outcome over and over again. The only difference is how the chaos unfolds once both teams have started circling each other.

I like maps with few limits on movement and many possible routes. So it is not just a question of "left, right or center?".

That's because the map is very tiny.

If you ask for a very large bog, full of trees, roots and such, a true amazonic forest (like bog) then I'm with you.

(The same for a large city, full of buildings, and without river or parks; there were a couple of very good and large city maps in MW4. )

[Macksheen]

mogs01gt, on 08 March 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

They really messed up when they designed the ramps on those plateaus in C4. one team has to expose their backs to walk up it.

Would love to see one of the ramps moved, or an alternate ramp created.

Place is also rife with "oh wait, that little limb blocks me but that big one doesn't" hijinks. Some of the ramps are just a pest to climb.

[mogs01gt]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 March 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

NASCAR happens even in comp play, and it is the result of too many trying to flank to get better angles, so no, you don't understand it. In other words, the flanking body suddenly becomes the main body.
Yes some people do it when they should just push, but it would still occur.
Fixing maps is more about allowing for more varied strategies and tactics, not about fixing NASCAR.

Like Blastman has already provided, circling around a specific area of a map is not flanking. NASCAR'ing is more similar to a tactical circle that naval battleships use.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

mogs01gt, on 09 March 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Like Blastman has already provided, circling around a specific area of a map is not flanking. NASCAR'ing is more similar to a tactical circle that naval battleships use.

That is what it is once it starts, but the CAUSE is people wanting to flank, not full on rotate. The problem has always been that too many people decide to flank and thus that becomes the main body and thus a rotation rather than an actual flank. People will follow lights and mediums in the hopes of getting better angles and sadly leaving their slower allies behind to die.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 10:25 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

That is what it is once it starts, but the CAUSE is people wanting to flank, not full on rotate. The problem has always been that too many people decide to flank and thus that becomes the main body and thus a rotation rather than an actual flank. People will follow lights and mediums in the hopes of getting better angles and sadly leaving their slower allies behind to die.

Again, stop using the word flank. People do not correctly flanking in MWO. You do not flank where the enemy has already been. You flank to where they are, meaning they are engaged, or where they are moving to.


What we have in MWO is players trying to get to their enemy's vulnerable side. MWO is very similar to naval tactics since mechs have both a reduction in fire arc and vulnerable sides.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

mogs01gt, on 09 March 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

Again, stop using the word flank. People do not correctly flanking in MWO. You do not flank where the enemy has already been.

Where did I say people were flanking where the enemy was? You can normally guess where the enemy is without even scouting. If it was to simply to take a superior position from the enemy.

mogs01gt, on 09 March 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

You flank to where they are, meaning they are engaged, or where they are moving to.

And that's what lights and fast mediums are supposed to do, because I'm pretty sure that is EXACTLY what lights and mediums do.

Hell, wouldn't concave firing lines count as having flanking units?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 10:48 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

Where did I say people were flanking where the enemy was? You can normally guess where the enemy is without even scouting. If it was to simply to take a superior position from the enemy.
And that's what lights and fast mediums are supposed to do, because I'm pretty sure that is EXACTLY what lights and mediums do.

Stop..seriously. You are now trying to support you failed points with false information. Blaster and I have already explained how people play this game. NASCARing around a central location is not flanking.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

mogs01gt, on 09 March 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Stop..seriously. You are now trying to support you failed points with false information. Blaster and I have already explained how people play this game.

Quite the fallacy here, you know how people play and I don't? Got any explanation as to why you and Blaster can know how people play this game yet I can't? Granted it works both ways, but all I've heard from you and Blaster is BS about what a flank is and just refusal of what I say without any real backing up of facts other than "well I played all the other MWs and it happened there"

mogs01gt, on 09 March 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

NASCARing around a central location is not flanking.

I never argued this, how about you stop arguing strawmen first? There is a difference between cause and effect, you are talking about effect, I'm talking cause.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Roadkill]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

There is a difference between cause and effect, you are talking about effect, I'm talking cause.

I don't think you're hearing what they're saying.

The maneuver that the lights and mediums are doing that is causing NASCAR is not a flanking maneuver. They're simply scouting up the right side (typically) and then everyone follows them. As the other team does exactly the same thing, that causes a rotation similar to a naval line of fire. In a fluid game like MWO, you can't "flank" an unengaged enemy because the enemy force realistically has no "front" for you to maneuver around.

There's no flanking involved by either team, so no, flanking is not causing NASCAR either.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roadkill, on 09 March 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

The maneuver that the lights and mediums are doing that is causing NASCAR is not a flanking maneuver. They're simply scouting up the right side.

Good lights/mediums are doing both, you are scouting, and if you see a viable opening (uncontested approach), you are taking it. Lights and mediums do more than just scout if they are worth their weight.

Roadkill, on 09 March 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

In a fluid game like MWO, you can't "flank" an unengaged enemy because the enemy force realistically has no "front" for you to maneuver around.

No, there are often approaches and angles that allow you to isolate enemies without them really being able to contest you. Things like firing lines and static engagement points are very possible, and allow for flanks (though the goal of those strats is to minimize the risk of that, but again, it still happens). Not sure where this assumption comes from, but MWO is not as fluid as you seem to suggest.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 12:36 PM.

[Roadkill]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

Good lights/mediums are doing both, you are scouting, and if you see a viable opening (uncontested approach), you are taking it. Lights and mediums do more than just scout if they are worth their weight.

Do you understand that "flanking" is a military term with a specific meaning?

Honest question. It seems that you're using the term to mean any movement that isn't a head-on rush, but that's not what it means.

Quote

No, there are often approaches and angles that allow you to isolate enemies without them really being able to contest you. Things like firing lines and static engagement points are very possible, and allow for flanks (though the goal of those strats is to minimize the risk of that, but again, it still happens). Not sure where this assumption comes from, but MWO is not as fluid as you seem to suggest.

Firing lines and static engagement points are possible in MWO, but at least uncommon if not rare. It varies significantly by map, too.

Both teams rushing up the right side at launch, thus causing NASCAR, is not a flanking maneuver. Both teams are moving fluidly with no clearly defined line of fire or front because the lances are approaching from 3 different positions. It most closely resembles an old naval line of fire. At the very least you should see this, because at start there are no established firing lines or static engagement points.

Flanking requires an enemy with a defined front. Unless you're facing a very organized 12-man, the enemy is likely an amorphous blob of individuals that can pivot in place. You can out-maneuver such an enemy, but you cannot flank them because they have no front.

And, actually, you could perform a true flanking maneuver from NASCAR by having your laggers turn 180 degress to engage the enemy while simulatenously collapsing your line straight across the circle to hit the enemy's line.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roadkill, on 09 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Do you understand that "flanking" is a military term with a specific meaning?

Honest question. It seems that you're using the term to mean any movement that isn't a head-on rush, but that's not what it means.

No, I mean hitting the sides of firing lines where an enemy is not able to project firepower well at all, generally you try and isolate one mech that is unable to be protected by his allies. It also depends on whether or not you are considering getting a concave firing line is flanking as well, since the whole point of that is to project firepower envelop them from multiple angles so that the enemy has trouble focusing and is forced to do something.

Roadkill, on 09 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Firing lines and static engagement points are possible in MWO, but at least uncommon if not rare. It varies significantly by map, too.

Depends, there is often lulls in engagements where neither team is really jockeying for position (which is where lights come into play). It isn't that uncommon, especially against better players who are able to hold the line without fear and with good aim. EmP is well known for taking a strong defensive position and beating you down with good aim and concentration of firepower.

Roadkill, on 09 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Both teams rushing up the right side at launch, thus causing NASCAR, is not a flanking maneuver.

You are correct, but that isn't how it always goes. Caustic used to be one of the few maps that were like this.

Roadkill, on 09 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

And, actually, you could perform a true flanking maneuver from NASCAR by having your laggers turn 180 degress to engage the enemy while simulatenously collapsing your line straight across the circle to hit the enemy's line.

This does actually occur and it is what wins the match generally, which ever train is most delayed eventually loses because they tend to get pincered at some point.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 02:07 PM.