105 replies to this topic

[Luminis]

@Pjwned, how, exactly does respawning affect a comparison that's supposed to highlight that a certain mechanic falls off in effectiveness dramatically as soon as people know what they're doing?

In case of MWO and ECM, that boils down to "can shoot a 'Mech without seeing a dorito" - but that's too much to ask, I suppose.

[Pjwned]

Luminis, on 08 March 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

@Pjwned, how, exactly does respawning affect a comparison that's supposed to highlight that a certain mechanic falls off in effectiveness dramatically as soon as people know what they're doing?

Because it's inaccurate to say that its effectiveness falls off dramatically unless you bend over backwards to counter it, meanwhile stealth heroes in DOTA-likes are much more easily countered and they're not constantly in a stealth bubble while unloading all of their damage on you multiple times.

As for why respawns are relevant, getting killed because of ECM being unbalanced is obviously a lot more harsh than dying to a stealth hero and then coming back at most a minute later.

Quote

In case of MWO and ECM, that boils down to "can shoot a 'Mech without seeing a dorito" - but that's too much to ask, I suppose.

Let me know when I can fire my missiles at something without a lock.

Edited by Pjwned, 08 March 2016 - 10:42 PM.

[Wolfways]

Pjwned, on 08 March 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

Let me know when I can fire my missiles at something without a lock.

You can! Dumb fire

Sorry, just wanted to remove at least one persons chance to be an idiot.

Boogie138, on 08 March 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Lets not fix things until they are broken

Ah so you agree with fixing ECM then. Good

[SmoothCriminal]

I think this time next week with the Archer LRMpocalypse people will be discussing the merits of ECM a lot more diligently. At present I feel it is relatively balanced but if everyone is packing it (which they will be, unless they're in an Archer), salty tears may re-emerge...

[General Solo]

NARC shell INTENSIFIES

[Livewyr]

MJB (Magic Jesus Box), what was supposed to be ECM already has a template for how it would work... in TT.

Negates the Artemis Bonus.
Negates the BAP Bonus.
Negates the TAG Bonus.
Negates the NARC Bonus.

Would be pretty powerful in its own right if LRMs were built as they should be.
But Alas, the game is built weirdly.

Everyone has C3 Slave and Master
Our LRMs are actually closer Streak LRMs (They should be only slightly guided, with much less agility, boosted by TAG etc...)
Our SRMs are more like Rocket packs

ECM blocks any detection...and is countered by NARC, TAG, BAP.


How they screwed up the system that badly is inexplicable. And that is why it isn't going to change.

[Luminis]

Pjwned, on 08 March 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

Because it's inaccurate to say that its effectiveness falls off dramatically unless you bend over backwards to counter it,

Bend over backwards? Wat?

All it takes is getting used to shooting at people without relying on the game holding your hand by putting a red Dorito over everything - remember, that won't happen unless you've got the enemy 'Mech in sight anyway. There's no need to even counter it. You announce the enemy's position via comms and shoot it. Problem solved.

Pjwned, on 08 March 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

Let me know when I can fire my missiles at something without a lock.

Don't tell me you're the kind of guy who boats LRMs but refuses to add even a TAG to the loadout?

Edited by Luminis, 09 March 2016 - 06:24 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

I do not see a problem with ECM in its present state. I certainly would not call it OP. With Radar Deprivation, I think a lot of players do not even bother with ECM if they can equip it. They just pack in one extra laser.

It could be that you are seeing the combined effects of ECM anf Radar Derp and thinking that ECM is OP. I think Radar Derp is OP.

[Livewyr]

Rampage, on 09 March 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:

I do not see a problem with ECM in its present state. I certainly would not call it OP. With Radar Deprivation, I think a lot of players do not even bother with ECM if they can equip it. They just pack in one extra laser.

It could be that you are seeing the combined effects of ECM anf Radar Derp and thinking that ECM is OP. I think Radar Derp is OP.

Confused:

Something that breaks radar lock immediately after losing LoS is OP.
Something that prevents getting lock in the first place is not OP.

Am I understanding you correctly?

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Douglas grizzly, on 08 March 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

while ecm is very useful and i understand its need, i do think it is FAR too powerful. Reason i cant tell you how many times i have had a light mech hit me from behind without any warning whatsoever. believe me i am watching very carefully for the low signal and mini map disruptions, but still its very irritating to be fighting and all of a sudden be lity up by a mech there has been no warning that it is there. Also i have noticed several times mechs have not had the triangle above then even when at pointblank range. Whether that is a effect of ecm or not i dont know. If it is i dont think that should happen within say 1000 meters. I do understand not being able to lock missiles on them due to ecm and i support that.

Thoughts on correcting this in balance. make the ecm module weight and space intensive. IE if the ecm module is 1 space and 1 ton then change weight to 5 tons and 3 to 5 spaces. I do support limiting it to a few mechs, which is good. Also to correct the no triangle at point blank range , i suggest flickers of it, and same for the ones sneaking up on someone .

Counter measure 1: Seismic wallhack

Counter measure 2: Listening for the rapid footfalls of enemy lights

Counter measure 3: Bothering to run some rear armor...

[nehebkau]

@ OP just needs to learn how to play without LRMs or SSRMs and she/he will never care about ECM again. Yes, it takes time to actually learn how to AIM, gain map awareness and not target fixate -- oh wait, sorry, that takes effort.... never mind lets just turn the game into a COD clone because of DERP.

[Sandpit]

Douglas grizzly, on 08 March 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

problem is guys in quick drops , getting anyone to work as a team is difficult.

you don't "balance" weapon systems based on this

[SplashDown]

Sandpit, on 08 March 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

If ECM worked the same way I'd agree. BAP is supposed to be (at least in terms of MWO and how it's been designed) a counter to ECM.

BAP has never been a counter to ecm..its only function has allways been to extend sensor range
However ecm isnt suposed to have a bubble effect either..ecm is posed to be a local effect only, where as Angel ecm has the bubble effect.

Many of the ideas im reading in this thread are good ideas..but imo dont fit in the current game play.
MWO is basicly move forward and shoot..no real tactics till the battle starts....if the MWO world wer larger..and the game play more in depth than i feel most of the ideas in this thread would be usefull.

just my 2 pennies,

Edited by SplashDown, 09 March 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[Sandpit]

SplashDown, on 09 March 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

BAP has never been a counter to ecm..its only function has allways been to extend sensor range

in MWO context that's near exactly what it's been. It's the one and only counter to ECM (well except UAV which also only negates a single ECM)

[Rampancy]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

in MWO context that's near exactly what it's been. It's the one and only counter to ECM (well except UAV which also only negates a single ECM)

Uh, NARC? TAG?

[Sandpit]

RampancyTW, on 09 March 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

Uh, NARC? TAG?

Those work regardless of ECM. They have physical and tangible results whether ECM is present or not. They are intended to assist LRMs specifically

NARC doesn't negate ecm, the common strategy if you're narced is to get within ECM range of a friendly mech so you don't get rained on (or find a wall to hug)

BAP is an electronics suite specifically for countering ECM and mechs trying to circumvent detection through shutting down.

[Mystere]

Douglas grizzly, on 08 March 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

problem is guys in quick drops , getting anyone to work as a team is difficult.

Think of it as an opportunity to work on improving your charisma and command skills.

Pjwned, on 08 March 2016 - 09:50 PM, said:

It shouldn't even be a team tool in the first place because that's A-ECM territory.

But that is not MWO's ECM.

[Moldur]

That stars have to align to make ECM really useful. Most of the time it can be a minor hindrance playing against ECM, but it's rarely something that will carry the game.

[Sandpit]

Moldur, on 09 March 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

That stars have to align to make ECM really useful. Most of the time it can be a minor hindrance playing against ECM, but it's rarely something that will carry the game.

No single system in the game can or should carry a match in my opinion though

[Luminis]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

No single system in the game can or should carry a match in my opinion though

Unless one team consists of mostly LRM and Streak boats, it won't (and even then, LRM and Streak pilots that bring TAG and stuff can still make their boats work...). That, at least, is the only case where I found ECM to make a huge impact: Against opponents that almost entirely rely on getting a solid lock on an enemy 'Mech.

In that case, it wasn't so much the ECM that "carried" the match, but the the team composition / the matchmaker that made that composition happen.

Edited by Luminis, 09 March 2016 - 12:08 PM.