105 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Luminis, on 09 March 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

Bend over backwards? Wat?

All it takes is getting used to shooting at people without relying on the game holding your hand by putting a red Dorito over everything - remember, that won't happen unless you've got the enemy 'Mech in sight anyway. There's no need to even counter it. You announce the enemy's position via comms and shoot it. Problem solved.

The problem is ECM hard countering missiles when it shouldn't do anything like that.

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Don't tell me you're the kind of guy who boats LRMs but refuses to add even a TAG to the loadout?

No, the problem is that even with TAG you still need to expose yourself for far too long to get a lock on something with ECM even when you do TAG it, and of course if you don't have TAG then you're completely screwed.

Mystere, on 09 March 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

But that is not MWO's ECM.

Sounds good to me.

[nehebkau]

Pjwned, on 09 March 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

The problem is ECM hard countering missiles when it shouldn't do anything like that.

The problem is people boating a single weapon type wanting to stand at the back and say "Woo-hoo look at me I am helping!" I have had ZERO problems with my SRMs against ECM. Of course, I actually have to AIM SRMs.

Pjwned, on 09 March 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

No, the problem is that even with TAG you still need to expose yourself for far too long to get a lock on something with ECM even when you do TAG it, and of course if you don't have TAG then you're completely screwed.

OMG I have to expose myself to fire a weapon? But i want to be able to attack without getting hit myself -- because that's fair for me and I like it when things are fair for me but unfair for everyone else. Tell you what, let my LAZORS and AC curve round buildings so I don't have to expose myself to fire and then it will be all good. I love how people cry "ECM is unfair because it negates an entire weapons system," but no one cries on how unfair LRMs are in that they negate lasers, auto-cannons and srms because they can be fire without LoS.

Goodness, equip bap,TAG, targeting modules, UAV and you will be every ECM mech's worst nightmare.. better yet equip lasers, AC's and SRMs.

As an aside:

How do you know you are a bad player .... you cry about how OP ECM is because you can't use your LRMs.

[Luminis]

Pjwned, on 09 March 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

The problem is ECM hard countering missiles when it shouldn't do anything like that.

It doesn't hard counter missiles. It doesn't do squat about SRMs and since it is not impossible to lock a 'Mech with ECM, it doesn't hard counter LRMs or SSRMs, either.

Besides, where does that stance come from? Should ECM provide no protection from missiles because of how it was in BT? Because we've got an awefull lot of things in MWO that are different from BT. Or is it that you just can't deal with it?

Pjwned, on 09 March 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

No, the problem is that even with TAG you still need to expose yourself for far too long to get a lock on something with ECM even when you do TAG it, and of course if you don't have TAG then you're completely screwed.

God forbid you actually had to expose yourself. The horror!

I love the fact that ECM somewhat punishes players who'd attempt to hide all game long otherwise.

[Khobai]

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it doesn't hard counter LRMs or SSRMs

yes. it does.

ecm hard counters LRMs and SSRMs. while bap, tag, narc in turn hard counter ECM stealth.

what we have is a system of hard counters.

what we need is a system of SOFT counters.

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I love the fact that ECM somewhat punishes players who'd attempt to hide all game long otherwise.

what? ECM is what makes it possible to hide all game in the first place. ECM should not grant stealth at all.


WHAT ECM SHOULD DO:
-ECM should double missile lockon time for the carrying mech and nearby friendly mechs
-ECM should disrupt equipment like BAP/NARC/ARTEMIS/ETC...
-ECM should disrupt C3 sensor networks and prevent sharing of sensor information
-ECM should get new module that unlocks a third ECM mode (ghost mode) mode that creates false radar signatures

WHAT ECM SHOULD NOT DO:
-ECM should not grant stealth at all. period.
-ECM should not prevent missile locks

HOW LRMS SHOULD BE CHANGED:
-Indirect LRMs should be changed so theyre very inaccurate unless the target is TAGGED/NARCd
-LRM speed should be significantly buffed so LRMs can actually hit targets at long range
-Artemis should give SRMs/LRMs an increased chance to crit (artemis currently isnt worth its tonnage)

LRMs are suppose to be LONG RANGE MISSILES but theyre so abysmally slow that anyone can dodge them at long range without effort. They need faster speed to live upto their namesake. And to balance the faster speed indirect LRMs need to be made extremely inaccurate unless the target is TAGGED/NARCd.

Edited by Khobai, 10 March 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[Luminis]

Khobai, on 10 March 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

yes. it does.

Because it is not possible to get a lock on an ECM 'Mech. Ever.

Khobai, on 10 March 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

while bap, tag, narc in turn hard counter ECM.

If only those could be mounted alongside weapon systems that require a lock, but alas, they can't.

Khobai, on 10 March 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

what? ECM is what makes it possible to hide all game in the first place. ECM should not grant stealth at all.

"Stealth".

No red dorito = invisibility. Got it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Luminis, on 10 March 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

Because it is not possible to get a lock on an ECM 'Mech. Ever.

It isn't without some other sort of equipment unless they get within the 20m gap between you picking them up and LRM min range, which is a hard counter.

Luminis, on 10 March 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

If only those could be mounted alongside weapon systems that require a lock, but alas, they can't.

Not really the point, all those weapons are, are a tax to run LRMs to be effectively. Not all mechs can make use of those without sacrificing too much, and they shouldn't have too which is the point. Head TAG is practically a requirement for any "effective" LRM boat (like the ol HBK-4J(man). Where as mechs like the Mad Dog which should be perfect for LRMs thanks to the high cockpit and thin profile, are nothing but because of the tax.

[Khobai]

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Because it is not possible to get a lock on an ECM 'Mech. Ever.

its only possible by in turn hard countering ECM. derpa derp. what we have is a system of HARD COUNTERS.

what we need are soft counters.

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"Stealth".

No red dorito = invisibility. Got it.

As far as LRMS are concerned it IS invisibility. ECM should not hard counter an entire subset of weapons.

It should only soft counter LRMs by increasing the time it takes to lockon.

Soft counters allow player skill to overcome adversity. While hard counters are absolute and no amount of skill can overcome a hard counter because the only thing that beats a hard counter is another hard counter.

hard counters make gameplay too binary. either you have an answer for ECM or you dont and if you dont your LRMs are useless. Thats just bad game design.

Edited by Khobai, 10 March 2016 - 08:27 AM.

[Sandpit]

Luminis, on 10 March 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

Because it is not possible to get a lock on an ECM 'Mech. Ever.

uhm yes you can
hit it with tag
get in range with a BAP
pop a UAV

[Khobai]

he was being facetious sandpit

but again a hard counter system is bad for the same reason rock paper scissors isnt a fun game

hard counters simply arnt fun in any game.

[Sandpit]

Khobai, on 10 March 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

he was being facetious sandpit

but again a hard counter system is bad for the same reason rock paper scissors isnt a fun game

hard counters simply arnt fun in any game.

I think they have a place but I don't think they should be the ONLY option.

That's why I really think changing BAP to a bubble effect the same as how ECM works would be a step in the right direction. (We're not going to get any major changes to ECM, we tried that years ago, that's what originally kicked off the townhall meetings remember?)

NARC could be another, not only does it light up the target but it could easily negate or reduce ECM's bubble. Then you couldn't just scurry over to your ECM buddy after being narc'd and completely negate that system as well.

Command Console could be changed to work as an ECM reduction tool. Give it a cone of effect and let it reduce the ECM bubble by %

There's a lot of things they could do with the various electronic suites available but PGI's idea of role and information warfare for the most part is targeting speed, nothing more

[Pjwned]

nehebkau, on 10 March 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

OMG I have to expose myself to fire a weapon? But i want to be able to attack without getting hit myself -- because that's fair for me and I like it when things are fair for me but unfair for everyone else. Tell you what, let my LAZORS and AC curve round buildings so I don't have to expose myself to fire and then it will be all good.

The caveat there was being exposed "for far too long." Get some reading comprehension please.

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I love how people cry "ECM is unfair because it negates an entire weapons system," but no one cries on how unfair LRMs are in that they negate lasers, auto-cannons and srms because they can be fire without LoS.

That's not negating direct fire weapons, you have single digit IQ if you seriously think that.

I guess if an enemy fires LRMs at you while you're brawling with another enemy at close range then you're suddenly blocked from firing your weapons, right?

Laughably pathetic argument from the scrubbiest of ECM-baby crutchlords.

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Goodness, equip bap,TAG, targeting modules, UAV and you will be every ECM mech's worst nightmare

Right, you have to bend over backwards to deal with ECM because it's so unbalanced, and even then it's far from being any ECM mech's "worst nightmare."

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..better yet equip lasers, AC's and SRMs.

Right, that's what you end up doing and not equipping LRMs because they're so unreliable, and when people say that's the problem you get scrub baddies saying LOL JUST DON'T USE LRMS THEN.

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As an aside:

How do you know you are a bad player .... you cry about how OP ECM is because you can't use your LRMs.

https://yourlogicalf...ng-the-question

[Tier 1 Smurf]

Pjwned, on 09 March 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

The problem is ECM hard countering missiles when it shouldn't do anything like that.

along with the missiles being able to indirect fire. :/

[Khobai]

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along with the missiles being able to indirect fire. :/

right well ecm stealth shouldnt even be a thing.

and lrm speed needs to be massively increased so lrms are actually long range missiles instead of medium range missiles.

but to balance the faster speed lrm indirect fire should require tag/narc

[The Lobsters]

For anyone serious about LRM's, ECM is not a major problem.

[Khobai]

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For anyone serious about LRM's, ECM is not a major problem.

ECM is one of many reasons why LRM dont compete with direct fire weapons. ECM shouldnt give stealth because the benefit of stealth is too good for 1.5 tons and should be reserved for equipment like Null SIgnature System where the benefit is balanced by the costs. NSS is what gives stealth in the battletech universe, not ECM.

The fact LRMs are slow as molasses and can be dodged without effort is another reason. They dont function like long range missiles because their max effective range is like 500-600 meters.

And the fact LRMs spread damage around too much and artemis isnt worth its tonnage is yet another reason.

There are many reasons LRMs arnt competitive and they ALL need to be addressed.

Edited by Khobai, 10 March 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[Pjwned]

Luminis, on 10 March 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

It doesn't hard counter missiles.

Yes it does, you can't fire your missiles without a lock.

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It doesn't do squat about SRMs and since it is not impossible to lock a 'Mech with ECM, it doesn't hard counter LRMs or SSRMs, either.

What you mean is that if you hard counter ECM then LRMs/SSRMs are not hard countered. That still means ECM is a hard counter.

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Besides, where does that stance come from? Should ECM provide no protection from missiles because of how it was in BT? Because we've got an awefull lot of things in MWO that are different from BT. Or is it that you just can't deal with it?

ECM shouldn't hard counter entire weapon systems at an insignificant cost and overshadow AMS which is what you should be using to mitigate missiles because it's actually balanced. If you want functionality like that then ECM should weigh significantly more, take up far more space, and have other drawbacks such as heat generation.

Or we can just make it not extremely unbalanced by not making it a ridiculous hard counter.

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God forbid you actually had to expose yourself. The horror!

Being exposed "for far too long" is the problem.

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I love the fact that ECM somewhat punishes players who'd attempt to hide all game long otherwise.

Hilarious considering that ECM is what lets people hide all game long.

[Sandpit]

Pjwned, on 10 March 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

Right, you have to bend over backwards to deal with ECM because it's so unbalanced, and even then it's far from being any ECM mech's "worst nightmare."

hyperbole much?
Come on man. Suggesting someone use a single electronic suite to counter another electronic suite (that also has a tonnage and slot investment) or use a consumable that's pretty much one of the standards and has been in this game for years is hardly "bending over backwards"

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 10 March 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

right well ecm stealth shouldnt even be a thing.

and lrm speed needs to be massively increased so lrms are actually long range missiles instead of medium range missiles.

but to balance the faster speed lrm indirect fire should require tag/narc

Just make LRMs fly faster at longer ranges instead of making huge changes like that. I don't agree at all with completely reworking LRMs like that because it creates other problems in the process of trying to fix some problems.

[Pjwned]

Sandpit, on 10 March 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

hyperbole much?
Come on man. Suggesting someone use a single electronic suite to counter another electronic suite (that also has a tonnage and slot investment) or use a consumable that's pretty much one of the standards and has been in this game for years is hardly "bending over backwards"

I would say that "putting yourself at significant risk to counter 1 piece of equipment so that your 10+ tons of weapons aren't garbage" is bending over backwards.

The tonnage and slot investment is also practically nothing for how much ECM does, which is a huge part of the problem.

[Sandpit]

Pjwned, on 10 March 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

I would say that "putting yourself at significant risk to counter 1 piece of equipment so that your 10+ tons of weapons aren't garbage" is bending over backwards.

The tonnage and slot investment is also practically nothing for how much ECM does, which is a huge part of the problem.

I'll agree all day long that ECM needs some better counter options, but I don't feel investing 1.5 tons and 2 slots for a BAP is bending over backwards, nor is investing in a TAG laser.

I can regularly and easily break 600 damage in lurm boats without trying very hard. ECM doesn't render LRMs "useless" by any stretch, but there should be better advantages against ECM on counter electronic suites.

For example, if you switch ECM to jam, it once again only jams one ECM, it should act like a bubble in reverse exactly like it does when it's creating that stealth bubble.

It's not a matter of ECM being OP in my opinion, it's a matter of the bubble mechanic it uses while no other counter electronics have the same advantage.